Update on Below 3.0 at T6 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hey y'all:

I'm the original poster from this thread a couple of months back: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=299885

First - I just want to say thank you, all those words of advice were really needed and definitely helped, and much more - were definitely heeded

I guess I have good and bad news. The good being that I was able to get an in-house internship which starts next week. Bad being that while I had a
somewhat decent academic year for 2L (3.10), my overall GPA is stuck at 2.95 (I got 4 straight B's this semester in 4 doctrinal courses). For what it's worth - I'm at NYU (I need all the help I can get so there's no use in hiding the ball at this point). I know that there are other pathways for legal employment, but I'd rather focus my job search on BL/midlaw for now so as to be prepared for 3L OCI/and EIW

So my questions are:

1) Will the improvement in my 2L grades matter at all?
I was able to get an A- and a B+ this year and I took purely doctrinal, no seminar courses (NYU professors still apply the curve in doctrinal classes into 2L & 3L). How much will BL firms care though? I'm optimistic that they will notice so as not to think I'm incompetent based on my 1L marks, but I really don't know to be honest.

2) Market selection
Obviously, I want a good job and I'm open to working anywhere - it helps that I grew up all over the country due to my parent's employment. But due to my naivete last year, I killed myself during EIW. I didn't realize the difficulty of obtaining a California SA and I stupidly bid all the California firms the highest on my list (out of 50 bids, I stupidly used about half (maybe slightly less) on California firms.

Should I just forget about California at this point? I'm out here for the summer, but the GPA cutoffs seem high and I haven't read any stories of people being able to network their way out of them. I'm really open to NYC and Texas ( and of course anywhere else willing to take me, I'm willing to go)

3) What the best/optimal way to network/hustle?
I saw a lot of posts indicating that hustle/networking would be the trick - and I believe it. But it's been quite difficult for me, especially when considering that my undergrad doesn't have many too people in BigLaw and is looked at as a "negative" (I was told this by a current BL atty) when coupled with my 1L grades, plus the fact that I'm a URM.

I've worked in finance so I've networked before, but I'm still nervous/feeling pressure not to mess this summer up. What would be the right or at least a "good" approach this summer?

Thanks again!

[TLSDookie]

Fwiw, I got a big law job out of T13 after striking out during 2L OCI with a below median GPA and working in house at a mid cap company. The most important thing to keep in mind is that prime recruiting season for 3Ls starts around March and goes through August. Don’t be discouraged when you strike out at 3L OCI (you almost certainly will). I know it sucks you’ve been waiting to figure out where you’ll being your career for 10 months already and I’m saying you’ll have to wait another 8-14 months for an offer, but that’s when most mid/big firms can properly gauge their work for the fall and if they want to add to their incoming class.

Just keep grinding, don’t get discouraged—I had classmates with better GPAs than me get discouraged and entirely stop applying to places by Spring 3L, and it made it much harder for career services to work for them. If career services senses you’re putting everything you can in to your search, they’ll be more motivated to be your best advocate.

Aside from that you’ll want to make sure (with your career services) you aren’t doing anything horrifically wrong during screeners/cbs, for example complaining about not bringing up your gpa more because you were on a curve strikes me as a possible red flag since virtually everyone below HYS is still on a curve 2L/3L. If you smooth those small things out it’ll just become a numbers game where eventually something come through. There’s no way to figure out what it will be based on firm reputation or something, just need to keep giving 110% on absolutely every screener and callback you get.

Last thing, re market choice, I don’t know the west coast hiring market, and am not sure why you’re looking in TX unless you have a strong narrative why you want to do oil/energy/admiralty law, outside of those fields certainly other law exists but again, approaching it as a numbers game NY will have way more opportunities for you to do the same work. If nothing has come through for you by the spring, I guarantee your career services office has contacts they can reach out to in NY firms to hear about positions not being advertised on your online job board. By the spring you’ll probably want to focus fully on NY and pester your CSO to ask around repeatedly about opportunities for you.

[icansortofmath]

It's good your 2L grades trended up. That said, you're still well below median NYU student and you should recognize that you may not be competitive for sought after positions. You should also realize below median at NYU law still makes you a pretty good candidate for a lot of firms paying market or close to it. The most important thing now is for you to kill your in-house internship to secure references AND work experience that you can talk about during the interviews you will inevitably get. (NYU below median is not a bad spot to be if you're geographically flexible).

As backup of backup, some kids in similar spots at GULC/NYU that applied to (and some that attendend) the Tax LLM program (only 1 extra semester) as backup and to get another crack at basically OCI (TIP) and to make Big 4 (120k, not quite biglaw but beats almost everything non-biglaw) much more likely. I know at least one kid that ended up backing out after securing a position with honors program (SEC? not DOJ). You've gotta be prepared to do tax/exec comp though. This actually may be a great option for you since CA offices dipped low (like ~3.0 tax LLM low) for some exec comp hires. YMMV next year.

[MaxMcMann]

It's good your 2L grades trended up. That said, you're still well below median NYU student and you should recognize that you may not be competitive for sought after positions. You should also realize below median at NYU law still makes you a pretty good candidate for a lot of firms paying market or close to it. The most important thing now is for you to kill your in-house internship to secure references AND work experience that you can talk about during the interviews you will inevitably get. (NYU below median is not a bad spot to be if you're geographically flexible).

As backup of backup, some kids in similar spots at GULC/NYU that applied to (and some that attendend) the Tax LLM program (only 1 extra semester) as backup and to get another crack at basically OCI (TIP) and to make Big 4 (120k, not quite biglaw but beats almost everything non-biglaw) much more likely. I know at least one kid that ended up backing out after securing a position with honors program (SEC? not DOJ). You've gotta be prepared to do tax/exec comp though. This actually may be a great option for you since CA offices dipped low (like ~3.0 tax LLM low) for some exec comp hires. YMMV next year.

Can you expand on geographically flexible?

I may end up in OP’s boat. Go to a lower T14 in a tougher market but New York raised, foreign born.

Career services told me to consider Milwaukee, Indianapolis and other such places.

Is this realistic advice? Putting my preferences for NYC (or at least a big city) aside, I would imagine there are few firms there and whatever pays closest to market doesn’t want someone who is a zero percent culture fit. I don’t even know the rules to football! I don’t go to church (not the right religion), I don’t hunt or fish.

Career services claims the firms will be so dazzled with a bow median T13er that they’ll overlook all that but I’m skeptical.

[QContinuum]

Career services told me to consider Milwaukee, Indianapolis and other such places.

Is this realistic advice? Putting my preferences for NYC (or at least a big city) aside, I would imagine there are few firms there and whatever pays closest to market doesn’t want someone who is a zero percent culture fit. I don’t even know the rules to football! I don’t go to church (not the right religion), I don’t hunt or fish.

Career services claims the firms will be so dazzled with a bow median T13er that they’ll overlook all that but I’m skeptical.

IMO, your skepticism is well-founded. I don't recommend randomly applying to small tertiary (quaternary?) markets like Indianapolis or Milwaukee with zero ties. A YSH degree might (might!) dazzle but a lower T14 degree wouldn't overcome lack of ties. Focus on the big markets! And especially if you need sponsorship, larger firms in big markets are more likely to be willing to do that than smaller firms in small markets.

[albanach]

I may end up in OP’s boat. Go to a lower T14 in a tougher market but New York raised, foreign born.

Does your school have school-funded fellowships? If so, can you use them to clerk?

A year on $30-35k probably isn't what you'd hope for from graduation, but a strategic clerkship can absolutely be used to open doors.

[Wubbles]

It's good your 2L grades trended up. That said, you're still well below median NYU student and you should recognize that you may not be competitive for sought after positions. You should also realize below median at NYU law still makes you a pretty good candidate for a lot of firms paying market or close to it. The most important thing now is for you to kill your in-house internship to secure references AND work experience that you can talk about during the interviews you will inevitably get. (NYU below median is not a bad spot to be if you're geographically flexible).

As backup of backup, some kids in similar spots at GULC/NYU that applied to (and some that attendend) the Tax LLM program (only 1 extra semester) as backup and to get another crack at basically OCI (TIP) and to make Big 4 (120k, not quite biglaw but beats almost everything non-biglaw) much more likely. I know at least one kid that ended up backing out after securing a position with honors program (SEC? not DOJ). You've gotta be prepared to do tax/exec comp though. This actually may be a great option for you since CA offices dipped low (like ~3.0 tax LLM low) for some exec comp hires. YMMV next year.

Can you expand on geographically flexible?

I may end up in OP’s boat. Go to a lower T14 in a tougher market but New York raised, foreign born.

Career services told me to consider Milwaukee, Indianapolis and other such places.

Is this realistic advice? Putting my preferences for NYC (or at least a big city) aside, I would imagine there are few firms there and whatever pays closest to market doesn’t want someone who is a zero percent culture fit. I don’t even know the rules to football! I don’t go to church (not the right religion), I don’t hunt or fish.

Career services claims the firms will be so dazzled with a bow median T13er that they’ll overlook all that but I’m skeptical.

I'll agree with the above that you shouldn't count on them, but since the big firms in Milwaukee (outside of Foley), Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Louisville, Columbus, etc. don't have offices elsewhere for the most part I would still mass mail to them (since you're not applying at the cost of not applying to NYC). I picked up interviews at big firms in Milwaukee and Minneapolis in spite of having never been to those cities from below median at a T14. They have smaller class sizes generally and will be ties focused, but if you go to Northwestern or Michigan you can use that as a sort of signal that you wanted to move to the midwest.

[MaxMcMann]

I may end up in OP’s boat. Go to a lower T14 in a tougher market but New York raised, foreign born.

Does your school have school-funded fellowships? If so, can you use them to clerk?

A year on $30-35k probably isn't what you'd hope for from graduation, but a strategic clerkship can absolutely be used to open doors.

Being corporate focused, I’m puzzled by this. I know clerkships are a good career boost but I imagine the ones that are go to people with high grades, no?

[nixy]

If you have funding from your school so the judge doesn't have to pay you, many judges will happily take an extra warm body + brain on for a year.

[clarion]

It's good your 2L grades trended up. That said, you're still well below median NYU student and you should recognize that you may not be competitive for sought after positions. You should also realize below median at NYU law still makes you a pretty good candidate for a lot of firms paying market or close to it. The most important thing now is for you to kill your in-house internship to secure references AND work experience that you can talk about during the interviews you will inevitably get. (NYU below median is not a bad spot to be if you're geographically flexible).

As backup of backup, some kids in similar spots at GULC/NYU that applied to (and some that attendend) the Tax LLM program (only 1 extra semester) as backup and to get another crack at basically OCI (TIP) and to make Big 4 (120k, not quite biglaw but beats almost everything non-biglaw) much more likely. I know at least one kid that ended up backing out after securing a position with honors program (SEC? not DOJ). You've gotta be prepared to do tax/exec comp though. This actually may be a great option for you since CA offices dipped low (like ~3.0 tax LLM low) for some exec comp hires. YMMV next year.

Can you expand on geographically flexible?

I may end up in OP’s boat. Go to a lower T14 in a tougher market but New York raised, foreign born.

Career services told me to consider Milwaukee, Indianapolis and other such places.

Is this realistic advice? Putting my preferences for NYC (or at least a big city) aside, I would imagine there are few firms there and whatever pays closest to market doesn’t want someone who is a zero percent culture fit. I don’t even know the rules to football! I don’t go to church (not the right religion), I don’t hunt or fish.

Career services claims the firms will be so dazzled with a bow median T13er that they’ll overlook all that but I’m skeptical.

I'll agree with the above that you shouldn't count on them, but since the big firms in Milwaukee (outside of Foley), Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Louisville, Columbus, etc. don't have offices elsewhere for the most part I would still mass mail to them (since you're not applying at the cost of not applying to NYC). I picked up interviews at big firms in Milwaukee and Minneapolis in spite of having never been to those cities from below median at a T14. They have smaller class sizes generally and will be ties focused, but if you go to Northwestern or Michigan you can use that as a sort of signal that you wanted to move to the midwest.

I would second the most recent poster above. Anecdotally, I have a friend from ls who, from a lower T14 and below median grades, was able to secure entry level in a less competitive biglaw firm's midwest office. (Not Chicago). Zero ties either through education or from where they were raised. But yes, I would treat that as a mass mail option rather than the basket into which you place all of your eggs (so to speak). Best of luck to you!

[carsondalywashere]

It's good your 2L grades trended up. That said, you're still well below median NYU student and you should recognize that you may not be competitive for sought after positions. You should also realize below median at NYU law still makes you a pretty good candidate for a lot of firms paying market or close to it. The most important thing now is for you to kill your in-house internship to secure references AND work experience that you can talk about during the interviews you will inevitably get. (NYU below median is not a bad spot to be if you're geographically flexible).

As backup of backup, some kids in similar spots at GULC/NYU that applied to (and some that attendend) the Tax LLM program (only 1 extra semester) as backup and to get another crack at basically OCI (TIP) and to make Big 4 (120k, not quite biglaw but beats almost everything non-biglaw) much more likely. I know at least one kid that ended up backing out after securing a position with honors program (SEC? not DOJ). You've gotta be prepared to do tax/exec comp though. This actually may be a great option for you since CA offices dipped low (like ~3.0 tax LLM low) for some exec comp hires. YMMV next year.

Can you expand on geographically flexible?

I may end up in OP’s boat. Go to a lower T14 in a tougher market but New York raised, foreign born.

Career services told me to consider Milwaukee, Indianapolis and other such places.

Is this realistic advice? Putting my preferences for NYC (or at least a big city) aside, I would imagine there are few firms there and whatever pays closest to market doesn’t want someone who is a zero percent culture fit. I don’t even know the rules to football! I don’t go to church (not the right religion), I don’t hunt or fish.

Career services claims the firms will be so dazzled with a bow median T13er that they’ll overlook all that but I’m skeptical.

I'll agree with the above that you shouldn't count on them, but since the big firms in Milwaukee (outside of Foley), Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Louisville, Columbus, etc. don't have offices elsewhere for the most part I would still mass mail to them (since you're not applying at the cost of not applying to NYC). I picked up interviews at big firms in Milwaukee and Minneapolis in spite of having never been to those cities from below median at a T14. They have smaller class sizes generally and will be ties focused, but if you go to Northwestern or Michigan you can use that as a sort of signal that you wanted to move to the midwest.

TCR