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Gettin this rolling.

Rising 3L, post your questions if you want answered

Hi— I’m just above median. I’m applying to all DC and Chicago firms— for the DC firms I’m only applying places where my GPA is above the 25th percentile. I really don’t want to work in NYC. But now I’m worried I won’t get a job at all this way. Any thoughts?

You should absolutely apply to New York or if you really don’t want New York, Houston. Both Chicago and DC are super grade sensitive and competitive. You need to have some back up options especially at median.

Make sure you are networking as that will reduce the risk of you ending up in a market you do not want.

Ack the only place I want to live less than NYC is Houston. I originally had a 1/3 1/3 1/3 split between Chicago DC and NYC but was told not to bid on three markets so I cut NYC. Should I add it back in?

I'm here to answer questions too. Recent graduate, can talk about DC market particularly.

Yes-add nyc back in. I don’t understand the limiting to two markets. There were people in my class applying all over the place to offices in their gpa range. You just want to make sure you walk out of OCI with a job.

Many of the dc firms with 25%s below your gpa do not give out very many offers/have small class sizes so you need to balance it out with some nyc firms that have huge classes. If I remember correctly there aren’t even that many firms from Chicago that come to OCI, so this should not be very difficult to do.

Applying to NY and (worst case scenario) getting only an NY biglaw SA position means you at least have an SA position at a firm that presumably would have offices in DC. While requesting a transfer shouldn't be plan A, it should be a consideration that most firms should be flexible to have at least one person transition markets after the summer (or even split your SA summer in two offices, if you can finagle it). My firm had multiple people transfer to a different office after the summer. As long as the non-DC office you're summering isn't super touchy about you not staying in that market, it's best that you don't completely block yourself from the chance of getting offered a spot at a firm. This is all just to say that getting a SA in NY is not the end of the world, and would open a lot of doors if you didn't get any offers in the DC market.

TL;DR: at the absolute least, you need to get your foot in the door at a firm and blocking out a major market like NY is shooting yourself in the foot.

Okay so should I go back to the Chicago/DC/NYC split then? I honestly only want Chicago.

eightleggedfreaks wrote:Okay so should I go back to the Chicago/DC/NYC split then? I honestly only want Chicago.

Then IMO don't waste bids on DC. Especially if you're near median; you'll have trouble being competitive in DC. Just put your bids in at Chicago, also be applying pre-OCI to firms that aren't coming, make it clear to the Chicago firms that you're gunning for Chicago, and then fill the list with NYC firms.

I got asked at every OCI interview where I was looking at geographically. You'll be much more compelling if the answer to Chicago firms is "Chicago but I have a few NYC bids" than if it is "Chicago, but also NYC and DC." DC firms are also going to wonder why Chicago is on your list--not really a market people go for from Duke unless it's "home" or something similar.

PLEASE TAKE THIS ADVICE

Even if you have super high grades.. I'm talking even if you have a 3.7+, apply to at least a few middle-of-the-road NYC firms. I know a # of ppl who struck out completely of CHI/DC/CA with great grades. Also fill your entire bid list.

Unless you'd rather not do biglaw than NYC biglaw, bid NYC and bid high. DC isn't realistic and Chicago is tough without good ties and maybe even then it'll be an outside shot

I honestly think I would rather not have biglaw than take NYC biglaw. I have strong Chicago ties— college and two years of work experience after, plus it’s the nearest major city to my hometown where my parents still live. I appreciate everyone’s advice but after thinking it over I really can’t live in NYC. It’s such a horrible, stressful place and the firm cultures there are awful from everything I’ve heard.

Anonymous User wrote:PLEASE TAKE THIS ADVICE

Even if you have super high grades.. I'm talking even if you have a 3.7+, apply to at least a few middle-of-the-road NYC firms. I know a # of ppl who struck out completely of CHI/DC/CA with great grades. Also fill your entire bid list.

Seconded. I was 3.7+, straight through, average interviewer, no DC ties (probably the median "good grade interviewee"). I took every DC screener I could get - filled my bid list and picked up the open extras - got a few callbacks, and ended up with 2 offers that were actually worthwhile. That's teetering on a knife's edge of striking out. (Now I'm an associate in DC at one of those 2 firms who offered me)

If you have good grades and want DC, look at NY firms and pick a couple (not Cravath but you also don't have to go way down the list) that you think would be the most bearable, especially those with good DC presences. These are your safety school - your application to UNC Law. Worst case, they are your only offer, you spend a summer in NY and can at least work with recruiting to try to get a transfer to DC in firm.

eightleggedfreaks wrote:I honestly think I would rather not have biglaw than take NYC biglaw. I have strong Chicago ties— college and two years of work experience after, plus it’s the nearest major city to my hometown where my parents still live. I appreciate everyone’s advice but after thinking it over I really can’t live in NYC. It’s such a horrible, stressful place and the firm cultures there are awful from everything I’ve heard.

Okay, that's fair not to want to live there, but what is your plan if you strike out and don't get anything? Mid-law? If so, then you should concurrently be applying to mid-size and smaller firms in Chicago to make sure you cover your bases and do everything you can to get SOMETHING in the jurisdiction you want. Just making sure you aren't under the impression that 3L OCI would be a guaranteed shot to get a biglaw (or even midlaw) job in Chicago if you strike out at 2L OCI.

Second everything. I was top 20% last year, DC only, and bid only 65% DC. I consider myself I really good interviewer (straight through) and got callbacks at only 50% of my top 10 firms. Luckily I got offers from the top 4 on my list, but it’s still a bloodbath there. Gotta play safe

What's a good screener/callback and callback/offer ratio? Targeting mainly large class NY firms with varying levels of selectivity.

Anonymous User wrote:What's a good screener/callback and callback/offer ratio? Targeting mainly large class NY firms with varying levels of selectivity.

What’re your grades like?

The advice here is good, but be sure to also leverage career services' advice on what firms specifically to bid on, you don't want to just treat NY (or Chicago) like a dartboard or firms as interchangeable outside their 75/50/25 GPA cutoffs. If you just send them an excel with bid priorities and don't ask for anything else, they'll only have time to check your priorities for glaring red flags in terms of too high/low rankings, and sign off on you going in to OCI with your list as-is. It's more important to make sure you're bidding on specific firms that fit your interests, e.g. don't apply to a firm that hires mostly in their M&A group if you want to do SecReg. Career Services know which firms do what (better than Vault/Chambers) but will only help you if you force them to take time doing so by explicitly asking and setting up phone calls with your counselor. I got hammered at OCI and ended up with only one callback because I thought all NY firms generally do everything in their NY office (going mostly off their website as a naive 1L) and only focused on the most GPA lenient firms as a ~median student.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:What's a good screener/callback and callback/offer ratio? Targeting mainly large class NY firms with varying levels of selectivity.

What’re your grades like?

3.4X

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:What's a good screener/callback and callback/offer ratio? Targeting mainly large class NY firms with varying levels of selectivity.

What’re your grades like?

3.4X

If you have 10 each of target/reach/safety (and are an average interviewer) would think you’d get callbacks at 5-7 of your targets, 2-3 of your reaches, and many of your safeties if you had decent reasons. But this is highly variable and depends on interviewing skills a lot

Also, a 3.41 is a lot different than a 3.49 in this context, even though it may not seem like much

Career Services know which firms do what (better than Vault/Chambers) but will only help you if you force them to take time doing so by explicitly asking and setting up phone calls with your counselor. I got hammered at OCI and ended up with only one callback because I thought all NY firms generally do everything in their NY office (going mostly off their website as a naive 1L) and only focused on the most GPA lenient firms as a ~median student.

Unfortunately my advisor doesn’t really seem to like giving me any advice. I asked him how to find the GPAs firms were looking for and he sort of shrugged without even telling me that that’s part of the spreadsheet on the website. I’m not sure I trust him anymore.

JHP wrote:

eightleggedfreaks wrote:I honestly think I would rather not have biglaw than take NYC biglaw. I have strong Chicago ties— college and two years of work experience after, plus it’s the nearest major city to my hometown where my parents still live. I appreciate everyone’s advice but after thinking it over I really can’t live in NYC. It’s such a horrible, stressful place and the firm cultures there are awful from everything I’ve heard.

Okay, that's fair not to want to live there, but what is your plan if you strike out and don't get anything? Mid-law? If so, then you should concurrently be applying to mid-size and smaller firms in Chicago to make sure you cover your bases and do everything you can to get SOMETHING in the jurisdiction you want. Just making sure you aren't under the impression that 3L OCI would be a guaranteed shot to get a biglaw (or even midlaw) job in Chicago if you strike out at 2L OCI.

Do you have any advice for researching midlevel firms? I am planning to do lots of coffees and phone calls with associates— I’ve already passed materials along to four firms.

eightleggedfreaks wrote:

JHP wrote:

eightleggedfreaks wrote:I honestly think I would rather not have biglaw than take NYC biglaw. I have strong Chicago ties— college and two years of work experience after, plus it’s the nearest major city to my hometown where my parents still live. I appreciate everyone’s advice but after thinking it over I really can’t live in NYC. It’s such a horrible, stressful place and the firm cultures there are awful from everything I’ve heard.

Okay, that's fair not to want to live there, but what is your plan if you strike out and don't get anything? Mid-law? If so, then you should concurrently be applying to mid-size and smaller firms in Chicago to make sure you cover your bases and do everything you can to get SOMETHING in the jurisdiction you want. Just making sure you aren't under the impression that 3L OCI would be a guaranteed shot to get a biglaw (or even midlaw) job in Chicago if you strike out at 2L OCI.

Do you have any advice for researching midlevel firms? I am planning to do lots of coffees and phone calls with associates— I’ve already passed materials along to four firms.

Honestly, I was never totally sure on this question and no one at my career services office could offer anything other than some archaic spreadsheet they halfheartedly used to try and track where alums were working. I tried researching from "scratch"--as much as Vault is not a great guide for firm prestige or rankings, I did use their midsize firm rankings to get a sense of what firms were out there, which ones were in my targeted jurisdictions, what work they did, etc. I also used sources like Chambers, US Best News (I know, not great), among others. I think the key with really being taken seriously for midsize firms is to show a genuine interest in their work and their firm. No one wants to feel like they are your backup option to biglaw, so I think networking and talking to folks is going to get you even further at midsize firm.

eightleggedfreaks wrote:

JHP wrote:

eightleggedfreaks wrote:I honestly think I would rather not have biglaw than take NYC biglaw. I have strong Chicago ties— college and two years of work experience after, plus it’s the nearest major city to my hometown where my parents still live. I appreciate everyone’s advice but after thinking it over I really can’t live in NYC. It’s such a horrible, stressful place and the firm cultures there are awful from everything I’ve heard.

Okay, that's fair not to want to live there, but what is your plan if you strike out and don't get anything? Mid-law? If so, then you should concurrently be applying to mid-size and smaller firms in Chicago to make sure you cover your bases and do everything you can to get SOMETHING in the jurisdiction you want. Just making sure you aren't under the impression that 3L OCI would be a guaranteed shot to get a biglaw (or even midlaw) job in Chicago if you strike out at 2L OCI.

Do you have any advice for researching midlevel firms? I am planning to do lots of coffees and phone calls with associates— I’ve already passed materials along to four firms.

As much as you may hate NY, anyone can live anywhere for a summer. Target NY firms with big Chicago classes - Kirkland, Sidley, etc. it’s not as hard you may think to switch offices for when you graduate.