When is it time to quit the legal job search? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone. 2017 T2 grad here with below median grades and good legal work experience (I'd rather not get more specific). After sending out 328 applications to law firms (of all sizes), government agencies, prosecutors and PDs, and accounting firms, as well as attending 20 networking events, I am still unemployed. From my efforts I have gotten 15 interviews, none of which from networking.

Is it time to give up the ghost and quit the legal job search? When I think about quitting law it makes me sick, but at the same time I have the feeling that my time has passed and I am effectively stale goods on the legal employment market. Any advice, positive or negative would be greatly appreciated.

[wishywashy]

Have you gone back to your school's career services? They have a decent incentive to help you. Maybe they can give you a boost or double check your resume and interview skills to spot some weak points. Also, try old professors that you seemed to get along with and old classmates (old classmates may know of positions open, people leaving to open new shops, etc.). Have you tried PI law gigs or the debt collection attorney work (or insurance defense)? What about contract work at larger firms? Last option would be to hang a shingle out and do a little part-time work elsewhere to cover bills as you build up clients.

Best of luck.

[Anonymous User]

Have you gone back to your school's career services? They have a decent incentive to help you. Maybe they can give you a boost or double check your resume and interview skills to spot some weak points. Also, try old professors that you seemed to get along with and old classmates (old classmates may know of positions open, people leaving to open new shops, etc.). Have you tried PI law gigs or the debt collection attorney work (or insurance defense)? What about contract work at larger firms? Last option would be to hang a shingle out and do a little part-time work elsewhere to cover bills as you build up clients.

Best of luck.

I talk to my career services people every week. I apologize, I should have mentioned that. Are there any other options aside from shitlaw? From my understanding and observation people don't escape from the practice areas you listed once they're in them.

[sparty99]

If you went to a T2 and have below median grades, you need to take any job that you can get, including a small law firm. And contrary to your belief, you are wrong. You can move up from a small firm to what-have-you. I went from insurance defense to big law. Also, insurance defense is great experience. We actually go to court, do depositions.

[letmecount]

Have you gone back to your school's career services? They have a decent incentive to help you. Maybe they can give you a boost or double check your resume and interview skills to spot some weak points. Also, try old professors that you seemed to get along with and old classmates (old classmates may know of positions open, people leaving to open new shops, etc.). Have you tried PI law gigs or the debt collection attorney work (or insurance defense)? What about contract work at larger firms? Last option would be to hang a shingle out and do a little part-time work elsewhere to cover bills as you build up clients.

Best of luck.

I talk to my career services people every week. I apologize, I should have mentioned that. Are there any other options aside from shitlaw? From my understanding and observation people don't escape from the practice areas you listed once they're in them.

better than no law

[Aptitude]

Have you gone back to your school's career services? They have a decent incentive to help you. Maybe they can give you a boost or double check your resume and interview skills to spot some weak points. Also, try old professors that you seemed to get along with and old classmates (old classmates may know of positions open, people leaving to open new shops, etc.). Have you tried PI law gigs or the debt collection attorney work (or insurance defense)? What about contract work at larger firms? Last option would be to hang a shingle out and do a little part-time work elsewhere to cover bills as you build up clients.

Best of luck.

Yeah, there are always openings and PI and debt collection work. Also, look into Insurance Defense, Family law, Foreclosure, evictions, SSI.

Basically OP doesn't have to leave the law or worry about that if they want to be an Attorney. It's just a matter of what type of law they want to do. Most people, even fresh grads with no experience I know that can't find work, are just avoiding the work that available that they don't want to do. I know someone hiring for a domestic violence position, he's having a lot of trouble filling it. There's constant turnover in family law, insurance defense/PI, and foreclosure. All the stuff a lot of fresh grads don't want to go for.

You may need to build your legal skills up by volunteering at legal aid or legal clinics. You can find income through flexible contract legal work (document review), while volunteering. I mention this to recent unemployed grads when they ask me for advice, but they cringe at the thought of volunteering for evictions (justice housing project) or domestic violence cases. They'd just rather just stay unemployed, only apply to openings in the practices they're interested in (typically highly competitive practices), or do permanent doc review hoping they'll land that in-house corporate job or patent law job.

[nealric]

Networking "events" are worthless. Very few people with actual jobs to offer have much time to attend such events. On the other hand, networking is vital. The more attorneys you know in your targeted practice area in your targeted location, the higher the chance someone will be willing to take you on. Spamming applications will get you nowhere. The best small firm jobs will never be publicly advertised.

[BeeTeeZ]

Hi everyone. 2017 T2 grad here with below median grades and good legal work experience (I'd rather not get more specific). After sending out 328 applications to law firms (of all sizes), government agencies, prosecutors and PDs, and accounting firms, as well as attending 20 networking events, I am still unemployed. From my efforts I have gotten 15 interviews, none of which from networking.

Is it time to give up the ghost and quit the legal job search? When I think about quitting law it makes me sick, but at the same time I have the feeling that my time has passed and I am effectively stale goods on the legal employment market. Any advice, positive or negative would be greatly appreciated.

The bolded is what sticks out to me. Coming from a T2 with below median grades, networking should have been (and should remain) high on your priority list.

By now many (if not most) of your classmates are employed. If you were friends (or at least cordial) with any of those employed classmates, you should reach out to them.

[beeoBoop]

Hi everyone. 2017 T2 grad here with below median grades and good legal work experience (I'd rather not get more specific). After sending out 328 applications to law firms (of all sizes), government agencies, prosecutors and PDs, and accounting firms, as well as attending 20 networking events, I am still unemployed. From my efforts I have gotten 15 interviews, none of which from networking.

Is it time to give up the ghost and quit the legal job search? When I think about quitting law it makes me sick, but at the same time I have the feeling that my time has passed and I am effectively stale goods on the legal employment market. Any advice, positive or negative would be greatly appreciated.

The bolded is what sticks out to me. Coming from a T2 with below median grades, networking should have been (and should remain) high on your priority list.

By now many (if not most) of your classmates are employed. If you were friends (or at least cordial) with any of those employed classmates, you should reach out to them.

Going 0/15 is equally concerning. A coach or someone else who can help would be huge. 0/15 isn't a fluke and there's probably something you can do differently

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone. 2017 T2 grad here with below median grades and good legal work experience (I'd rather not get more specific). After sending out 328 applications to law firms (of all sizes), government agencies, prosecutors and PDs, and accounting firms, as well as attending 20 networking events, I am still unemployed. From my efforts I have gotten 15 interviews, none of which from networking.

Is it time to give up the ghost and quit the legal job search? When I think about quitting law it makes me sick, but at the same time I have the feeling that my time has passed and I am effectively stale goods on the legal employment market. Any advice, positive or negative would be greatly appreciated.

The bolded is what sticks out to me. Coming from a T2 with below median grades, networking should have been (and should remain) high on your priority list.

By now many (if not most) of your classmates are employed. If you were friends (or at least cordial) with any of those employed classmates, you should reach out to them.

Going 0/15 is equally concerning. A coach or someone else who can help would be huge. 0/15 isn't a fluke and there's probably something you can do differently

I made efforts to go to networking events and conferences all throughout law school, and I've worked on my interviewing skills for the past 3 years. Before every interview I always do a mock interview with my career advisors. I wasn't friends or cordial with anyone from law school. I'm not very good with people.

[cavalier1138]

I wasn't friends or cordial with anyone from law school. I'm not very good with people.

Well, it might be time to work on that.

[BeeTeeZ]

Hi everyone. 2017 T2 grad here with below median grades and good legal work experience (I'd rather not get more specific). After sending out 328 applications to law firms (of all sizes), government agencies, prosecutors and PDs, and accounting firms, as well as attending 20 networking events, I am still unemployed. From my efforts I have gotten 15 interviews, none of which from networking.

Is it time to give up the ghost and quit the legal job search? When I think about quitting law it makes me sick, but at the same time I have the feeling that my time has passed and I am effectively stale goods on the legal employment market. Any advice, positive or negative would be greatly appreciated.

The bolded is what sticks out to me. Coming from a T2 with below median grades, networking should have been (and should remain) high on your priority list.

By now many (if not most) of your classmates are employed. If you were friends (or at least cordial) with any of those employed classmates, you should reach out to them.

Going 0/15 is equally concerning. A coach or someone else who can help would be huge. 0/15 isn't a fluke and there's probably something you can do differently

I made efforts to go to networking events and conferences all throughout law school, and I've worked on my interviewing skills for the past 3 years. Before every interview I always do a mock interview with my career advisors. I wasn't friends or cordial with anyone from law school. I'm not very good with people.

This is the issue then, IMO. You don't have to be a social butterfly to be a great lawyer, but it's gonna take some social skills to get your foot in the door somewhere at this point.

Network events and conferences can be very overwhelming, and IME are usually a waste of time unless you have the grades/resume to get hired anyway. Given your situation, I think you'd be better served by trying to meet people 1 on 1.

Search Linkedin for alumni from your law school and send them a friend request, telling them that you'd love to buy them a coffee and discuss their practice. The fact that you're unemployed will naturally come up in conversation, and when it does don't avoid the elephant in the room.

Tell them that you're open-minded and just want an opportunity to do good work somewhere. Ask them if they have any advice on where you should be applying, and what they would do if they were in your shoes. One person taking an interest in you can lead to a job. It only takes one.

[beeoBoop]

Hi everyone. 2017 T2 grad here with below median grades and good legal work experience (I'd rather not get more specific). After sending out 328 applications to law firms (of all sizes), government agencies, prosecutors and PDs, and accounting firms, as well as attending 20 networking events, I am still unemployed. From my efforts I have gotten 15 interviews, none of which from networking.

Is it time to give up the ghost and quit the legal job search? When I think about quitting law it makes me sick, but at the same time I have the feeling that my time has passed and I am effectively stale goods on the legal employment market. Any advice, positive or negative would be greatly appreciated.

The bolded is what sticks out to me. Coming from a T2 with below median grades, networking should have been (and should remain) high on your priority list.

By now many (if not most) of your classmates are employed. If you were friends (or at least cordial) with any of those employed classmates, you should reach out to them.

Going 0/15 is equally concerning. A coach or someone else who can help would be huge. 0/15 isn't a fluke and there's probably something you can do differently

I made efforts to go to networking events and conferences all throughout law school, and I've worked on my interviewing skills for the past 3 years. Before every interview I always do a mock interview with my career advisors. I wasn't friends or cordial with anyone from law school. I'm not very good with people.

This is the issue then, IMO. You don't have to be a social butterfly to be a great lawyer, but it's gonna take some social skills to get your foot in the door somewhere at this point.

Network events and conferences can be very overwhelming, and IME are usually a waste of time unless you have the grades/resume to get hired anyway. Given your situation, I think you'd be better served by trying to meet people 1 on 1.

Search Linkedin for alumni from your law school and send them a friend request, telling them that you'd love to buy them a coffee and discuss their practice. The fact that you're unemployed will naturally come up in conversation, and when it does don't avoid the elephant in the room.

Tell them that you're open-minded and just want an opportunity to do good work somewhere. Ask them if they have any advice on where you should be applying, and what they would do if they were in your shoes. One person taking an interest in you can lead to a job. It only takes one.

To add to this, the most important tip is to relax. Chill out and just chat with people when you're called in for an interview. It's not a date and there isn't one correct response they're looking for.

Take it easy and just have a conversation. It's just 20 minutes. (Even on callbacks it's just a series of 20 minutes discussions)

[objctnyrhnr]

I don’t think you should give up the legal job search. There are many reasons for this opinion, but the one I want to bring up here is the fact that your bad social skills are going to be a problem for any job. It’s not like you’ll just stop looking for jd required or preferred stuff then have some random white collar job fall in your lap. You need to nip this “bad with people” thing in the bud right now, or it’s going to hold you back regardless of what you decide to do.

Easier said than done though I know.

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone. 2017 T2 grad here with below median grades and good legal work experience (I'd rather not get more specific). After sending out 328 applications to law firms (of all sizes), government agencies, prosecutors and PDs, and accounting firms, as well as attending 20 networking events, I am still unemployed. From my efforts I have gotten 15 interviews, none of which from networking.

Is it time to give up the ghost and quit the legal job search? When I think about quitting law it makes me sick, but at the same time I have the feeling that my time has passed and I am effectively stale goods on the legal employment market. Any advice, positive or negative would be greatly appreciated.

The bolded is what sticks out to me. Coming from a T2 with below median grades, networking should have been (and should remain) high on your priority list.

By now many (if not most) of your classmates are employed. If you were friends (or at least cordial) with any of those employed classmates, you should reach out to them.

Going 0/15 is equally concerning. A coach or someone else who can help would be huge. 0/15 isn't a fluke and there's probably something you can do differently

I made efforts to go to networking events and conferences all throughout law school, and I've worked on my interviewing skills for the past 3 years. Before every interview I always do a mock interview with my career advisors. I wasn't friends or cordial with anyone from law school. I'm not very good with people.

This is the issue then, IMO. You don't have to be a social butterfly to be a great lawyer, but it's gonna take some social skills to get your foot in the door somewhere at this point.

Network events and conferences can be very overwhelming, and IME are usually a waste of time unless you have the grades/resume to get hired anyway. Given your situation, I think you'd be better served by trying to meet people 1 on 1.

Search Linkedin for alumni from your law school and send them a friend request, telling them that you'd love to buy them a coffee and discuss their practice. The fact that you're unemployed will naturally come up in conversation, and when it does don't avoid the elephant in the room.

Tell them that you're open-minded and just want an opportunity to do good work somewhere. Ask them if they have any advice on where you should be applying, and what they would do if they were in your shoes. One person taking an interest in you can lead to a job. It only takes one.

I would like to add that I have conducted 43 informational interviews, starting from 2L year.

[BeeTeeZ]

Hi everyone. 2017 T2 grad here with below median grades and good legal work experience (I'd rather not get more specific). After sending out 328 applications to law firms (of all sizes), government agencies, prosecutors and PDs, and accounting firms, as well as attending 20 networking events, I am still unemployed. From my efforts I have gotten 15 interviews, none of which from networking.

Is it time to give up the ghost and quit the legal job search? When I think about quitting law it makes me sick, but at the same time I have the feeling that my time has passed and I am effectively stale goods on the legal employment market. Any advice, positive or negative would be greatly appreciated.

The bolded is what sticks out to me. Coming from a T2 with below median grades, networking should have been (and should remain) high on your priority list.

By now many (if not most) of your classmates are employed. If you were friends (or at least cordial) with any of those employed classmates, you should reach out to them.

Going 0/15 is equally concerning. A coach or someone else who can help would be huge. 0/15 isn't a fluke and there's probably something you can do differently

I made efforts to go to networking events and conferences all throughout law school, and I've worked on my interviewing skills for the past 3 years. Before every interview I always do a mock interview with my career advisors. I wasn't friends or cordial with anyone from law school. I'm not very good with people.

This is the issue then, IMO. You don't have to be a social butterfly to be a great lawyer, but it's gonna take some social skills to get your foot in the door somewhere at this point.

Network events and conferences can be very overwhelming, and IME are usually a waste of time unless you have the grades/resume to get hired anyway. Given your situation, I think you'd be better served by trying to meet people 1 on 1.

Search Linkedin for alumni from your law school and send them a friend request, telling them that you'd love to buy them a coffee and discuss their practice. The fact that you're unemployed will naturally come up in conversation, and when it does don't avoid the elephant in the room.

Tell them that you're open-minded and just want an opportunity to do good work somewhere. Ask them if they have any advice on where you should be applying, and what they would do if they were in your shoes. One person taking an interest in you can lead to a job. It only takes one.

I would like to add that I have conducted 43 informational interviews, starting from 2L year.

Sincere question: do you have a developmental disorder or mental disability of some kind?

[AVBucks4239]

A bunch of thoughts.

First, I'm blown away that you are keeping stats about all this. Like, what good is it to know that you have sent out 328 applications and had 43 informational interviews and attended 20 networking events? I think this is counterproductive behavior and that these stats might be getting in your head.

Second, it seems to me that if you are striking out *this hard,* you are applying for things well above your credentials. Bemoaning shitlaw when you are batting 0/328 is the height of not taking a hint. People with far better credentials are getting these jobs.

Third, when you strike out like this, getting to know people is by far, I repeat -- BY FAR -- the most important thing you can do. I was jobless my 3L year and ended up getting a job after accepting an invitation to play cutthroat racquetball (three person), the third person being an attorney who was a friend of my friend. I worked there for 3+ years. You just need to get out and meet people and hang out with people and keep going.

Fourth, there's a huge difference between getting to know people and going to networking events. You need, need, need to make an effort to establish and maintain relationships.

Fifth, not escaping certain practice areas is a myth echoed by people on here. You just need a job, and then you can maneuver that into something. A friend of mine did insurance defense, which involved a lot of appellate arguments, which turned into being an appellate clerk (state court), which turned into him working at a big firm in Cleveland. Anecdotes are not statistics, I know, but you honestly never know.

To sum it up -- go out and meet people, stop keeping stats, and focus on getting a job, any job.

[Anonymous User]

A bunch of thoughts.


Third, when you strike out like this, getting to know people is by far, I repeat -- BY FAR -- the most important thing you can do. I was jobless my 3L year and ended up getting a job after accepting an invitation to play cutthroat racquetball (three person), the third person being an attorney who was a friend of my friend. I worked there for 3+ years. You just need to get out and meet people and hang out with people and keep going.

Fourth, there's a huge difference between getting to know people and going to networking events. You need, need, need to make an effort to establish and maintain relationships.
[...]
To sum it up -- go out and meet people, stop keeping stats, and focus on getting a job, any job.

What would you say are the best things to do to get out and meet people and develop relationships?

[Aptitude]

I would like to add that I have conducted 43 informational interviews, starting from 2L year.

You can swing a golf club with bad technique 10,000 times, but it doesn't solve the problem of bad technique. You're just reinforcing bad habits.

Unlike others that have posted here, I don't think mock interviews with career services is necessarily helpful. They're trained to teach you to interview in a pretty safe, robotic manner which is great if you're a top student at your school or among the other applicants. But if you're not, you're going to have to do things differently

It’s not like you’ll just stop looking for jd required or preferred stuff then have some random white collar job fall in your lap. You need to nip this “bad with people” thing in the bud right now, or it’s going to hold you back regardless of what you decide to do.

Easier said than done though I know.

It'll get even harder for him when he's applying to jobs outside of the legal industry. They'll value his JD less, and he'll have to be even more reliant on his social skills to land him jobs. If he can't land a job within his industry, far tougher hill to climb outside of industry.

Fifth, not escaping certain practice areas is a myth echoed by people on here. You just need a job, and then you can maneuver that into something. A friend of mine did insurance defense, which involved a lot of appellate arguments, which turned into being an appellate clerk (state court), which turned into him working at a big firm in Cleveland. Anecdotes are not statistics, I know, but you honestly never know.

To sum it up -- go out and meet people, stop keeping stats, and focus on getting a job, any job.

.

I'd like to add that I've also seen some crazy pivots withins the legal industry. I've seen a document reviewer at a big firm become a paralegal then in-house counsel at a well-known tech company. I saw a document reviewer end up in associate position at the Vault 100 firms they were doc reviewing at. Seen attorneys with no criminal law experience whatsoever or real legal experience land prosecutor jobs in competitive districts. I've seen many examples of attorneys just randomly landed a job they were not qualified or not experienced in via connections or luck. You never really know how the cards play out in the job market, there are many factors and luck at play. But you can't win if you don't play the game.

[JHP]

Have you followed up on interviews to ask for candid feedback on why your application didn't move further and what their reasons were for going with another candidate, etc.?

[AVBucks4239]

What would you say are the best things to do to get out and meet people and develop relationships?

I would say the most important thing is to maintain relationships from your life that you already have. Family, family friends, high school classmates, undergrad friends, law school friends, etc. These people will know lawyers or accountants or someone who is hiring or someone who is influential. I'm not a networking savant or anything but there are probably 50-75 people from high school, 25-30 people from college, 10-15 people from law school that I could reach out to and it wouldn't be awkward.

You are much, much, much more likely to land a job (or a client) when you have been referred or introduced by a mutual friend.

If you have been anti-social until now, and don't have relationships from your past, then you need to work on that.

The next thing you could do is join bar associations, inn of courts, etc. These aren't just events to meet people -- you have to follow up, buy them lunch or coffee, get to know them personally, get to know them professionally, etc. You should be aiming to meet every 2-3 months.

Part of my business plan when I went on my own was listing 25 lawyers who I would keep in touch with no matter what, and I've largely done that.

[Anonymous User]

A bunch of thoughts.

First, I'm blown away that you are keeping stats about all this. Like, what good is it to know that you have sent out 328 applications and had 43 informational interviews and attended 20 networking events? I think this is counterproductive behavior and that these stats might be getting in your head.

One of reasons why I keep stats is because no one thinks I'm making any effort to find a job otherwise, unless I can show them the spreadsheets and put a number on my efforts.

[AVBucks4239]

One of reasons why I keep stats is because no one thinks I'm making any effort to find a job otherwise, unless I can show them the spreadsheets and put a number on my efforts.

Who gives a shit what other people think about your job search? How is proving that helping you get a job?

Baseball writers often write about "godwinks" -- sometimes there are just moments in a game where it is just absolutely clear God is winking down at a team and hinting "today is not your day."

Sorry for being blunt, but you clearly are not taking any steps to appreciate or acknowledge the feedback (or godwinks) that you are getting. And by feedback, I don't mean HR contacting you and saying, "We would have hired you if you had X, Y, and Z;" when you get out of school, feedback comes in the form of no offers, no callbacks, no interviews, no follow-up after interviews, etc.

You have received immeasurable feedback and just keep hitting your head against the wall. It's time you take a step back and take the hint.

You should delete the spreadsheet, stop job-hunting for two weeks, re-set your expectations, and start at it completely fresh and focus on getting your first job.

[Anonymous User]

Have you considered taking your GPA off your resume? (Assuming its still on there). I’ve networked with a few partners and their advice was that after about two years post grad its ok to leave off your GPA. They can always reference your transcript or ask you but this might increase your chances of getting an interview.

I’m a 2017 grad as well with slightly below median grades at a T1. (> 3.0) I took a JD-Advantage job after law school because my grades weren't great. I took my GPA off my resume after a little over a year and received 4 offers this year from midsized firms. Don’t give up! Apply to as many opportunities as you can, after getting some experience you can try to lateral to a bigger firm or a practice group you prefer.

Clerking is also a great route. A couple of my classmates clerked after law school and received big law offers after their clerkship. (if thats what you're aiming for).

Best of luck!

[AVBucks4239]

Have you considered taking your GPA off your resume? (Assuming its still on there). I’ve networked with a few partners and their advice was that after about two years post grad its ok to leave off your GPA. They can always reference your transcript or ask you but this might increase your chances of getting an interview.

I’m a 2017 grad as well with slightly below median grades at a T1. (> 3.0) I took a JD-Advantage job after law school because my grades weren't great. I took my GPA off my resume after a little over a year and received 4 offers this year from midsized firms. Don’t give up! Apply to as many opportunities as you can, after getting some experience you can try to lateral to a bigger firm or a practice group you prefer.

Clerking is also a great route. A couple of my classmates clerked after law school and received big law offers after their clerkship. (if thats what you're aiming for).

Best of luck!

This is great. OP, this is Exhibit 5,861,294 of "get your first job and then let things fall into place."