Top Law Schools

Hi everyone,

I am the OP at
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=300473 and
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=300563

I have already committed to NYU. But still, I want to ask - Do I have a legitimate reason to do tax llm MOSTLY because I don't like my current job and the career outlook?

To give a bit background again and at the risk of exposing too much person info, I am a JD class of 2017 from a top school (and by top I mean top6/14), 3.3 ish GPA. Was a biglaw summer asso but got non-offered. Couldn't get anything out of 3L job search and so took school funding to work for a federal judge for free for about 9 months in my OPT year (international in need of H1B visa). Then went back to Asia and landed a job in big law corp practice on a non-associate title (pays about USD60-65k a year). By the time I left for tax llm I should have worked there for about 10 months. Barred in both CA and NY.

Don't like my current job for the following reasons:
1. Financial wise- currently making USD 60k/year and after 2 years should be promoted to about USD120k and not sure how the rate goes from there (if I stay in current job). Tried with headhunter for lateral jobs that promotes one to US pay scale after a two-year track but couldn't get any because I am still lacking in experience.
2. Work wise - corp practice is not rule heavy and especially since it's in Asia so everything we do is local law related - as a result my US JD does not give me any advantage at all over other law degree candidates (local law undegrads/masters or local candidates with a US LLM etc). But it was more expensive and took much longer to get.

Reasons I think why I should do tax llm:
1. To make the most out of my top US JD background for one more shot - if I don't do the tax llm, the only case I imagine my US JD background may matter again is when I have 1 to 2 year corp experience and lateral (but still not likely to go straight to US pay scale right away - likely still a two year track requirement).
2. I like rule based practice - for my clerkship I was in a rule based practice and I enjoyed it. I think my performance was up to standard too.
3. I am comfortable with big 4 salary; biglaw even better if I can get it. But for both there's the added challenge of H1B sponsorship.
4. If I managed to get into a US biglaw, even if I ended up not getting H1B visa I think my career outlook will be better than my current one - I have multiple friends who started work in US big law around Sept/Oct 2017 and then lateral back to Asia around June 2018. And even though they have less than a year of experience, they were able to get jobs that pay US rate + COLA.

Risks for me to do the tax LLM:
1. People keep stressing the point DON"T do tax llm UNLESS you KNOW you want to do tax. Well I have never done tax work before and took only 9 tax credits at JD level so I cannot say 100% on that. I do know I like rule based practice / practice that is built around a comprehensive system instead of practice that is built around piecemeal regulations scatted all over the place (which my current work is like).
2. I took 3 tax classes at JD level and all grades started with B. I don't think it's for lack of effort and I do enjoy the classes though. I will of course work my ass off during tax LLM and network for both GPA and job search. But still there's no guarantee on results.
3. the H1B visa that employers may not want to sponsor. I REALLY need to get a decent law related job at a big/mid sized law firm or accounting firm after tax llm. I have already experienced what the job search process will be like if you go straight back to Asia empty handed. Lateraling from a US job is a different story (even if your reason for lateral is because you didn't get the H1B visa).
4. Opportunity cost - by the time I left work I should have enough savings to pay for tuition and fees for NYU tax LLM on my own. My parents will need to cover the Cost of living only. But still quite some $$ if you take into account opportunity cost although I am not making much in my current job.

Appreciate any input. I think I want to do it but also fee like I may be doing it only to escape reality.

If I understand correctly, another issue you need to factor in is that you no longer have the OPT, so you NEED to get a job during the LLM.

Job placement at the LLM programs is good, but I’ve heard that 10-20% don’t have jobs at graduation. Obviously this isn’t published and is an unofficial estimate.

If I understand the OPT/H1B stuff correctly, you’d have to go back home to Asia immediately after the program and will have to apply to jobs in the US remotely if you don’t have a job by the end of the program.

Am I correct?

Some people mentioned in previous threads that 2 Big 4 don’t even offer sponsorship. Also, $120k in whatever country you’re in probably goes a lot further than the $120kish at the NY Big4, so I’m not sure if, financially, it’s worth it.

You say you’re okay with Big4, but clearly you are aiming for biglaw since this is mostly a money move.

I *think* you should be fine with a 3.3 from a T14, but your no offer is a red flag. And the fact that you couldn’t get any other biglaw job with a decent GPA from a top school may indicate other issues (interviewing skills?).

Just a few things to consider.

If I were in your shoes and I didn’t have to worry about $, I’d go for it. You don’t really have that much to lose.

It's a gamble still but I think you're a great candidate.

Having biglaw summer, top tier medianish JD, legal experience, and presumable bar passage already puts you near the top of the Tax LLM class. You will almost certainly get interviews before first semester grades are out and if you interview well, you can get Biglaw.

OPT/H1B only really came up for smaller firms, smaller regional offices, and Big 4 from what I heard. The biglaw firms in NYC seem to not care, presumably because they do so many sponsorships it's pretty normal for them. I also know some second tier (I just mean non-big 4 biglaw, but otherwise very well respected consulting/professional services firms' tax groups) also didn't mind sponsoring. Second hand info though so YMMV.

The Big 4 listings explicitly stated they won't sponsor but some people that needed sponsorships interviewed and I know at least one accepted an offer so I suspect it's actually case by case behind the scenes. It's probably harder for you to get a job over a similar candidate that doesn't need sponsorship but I don't think it's a total loss.

TLDR for the straight answer to what you're worried about: IMO, as long as you interview well, you should be able to get a substantial pay bump (90k+, probably 120 at big 4 or equivalent, and maybe close to 50/50 to get biglaw). To be sure, I am not too sure if you interview well. Getting no offered is a bit of a red flag and you need to know how you can explain that. Was the office you were at just no offering people due to financial issues? If you were 1 out of 15 associates and only one no-offered, I'd think long and hard about what happened and seriously question if you're gonna cut it in any biglaw environment.

2013 wrote:If I understand correctly, another issue you need to factor in is that you no longer have the OPT, so you NEED to get a job during the LLM.

Job placement at the LLM programs is good, but I’ve heard that 10-20% don’t have jobs at graduation. Obviously this isn’t published and is an unofficial estimate.

If I understand the OPT/H1B stuff correctly, you’d have to go back home to Asia immediately after the program and will have to apply to jobs in the US remotely if you don’t have a job by the end of the program.

Am I correct?

Some people mentioned in previous threads that 2 Big 4 don’t even offer sponsorship. Also, $120k in whatever country you’re in probably goes a lot further than the $120kish at the NY Big4, so I’m not sure if, financially, it’s worth it.

You say you’re okay with Big4, but clearly you are aiming for biglaw since this is mostly a money move.

I *think* you should be fine with a 3.3 from a T14, but your no offer is a red flag. And the fact that you couldn’t get any other biglaw job with a decent GPA from a top school may indicate other issues (interviewing skills?).

Just a few things to consider.

If I were in your shoes and I didn’t have to worry about $, I’d go for it. You don’t really have that much to lose.

Thanks for the reply. I could get another OPT for LLM so I still have 1 year (well technically more like 6-7 months since H1B app must be submitted by 1 April and app must take some time to prepare) after graduation if I didn't get anything during school.

I don't have to "worry" about $ - as I have said I have the 70k in savings and 20k in cost of livings isn't too large a number for my family. If I end up back in Asia making 60k again after tax llm it won't be end of the world but will surely hurt though.

As to your last point - I got like 5-6 callbacks during 1L OCI and ended up with 2 offers. For 3L job search - I didn't even get any interview at all during the whole year for all the mass mailings/symplicity apps I sent out. But you are right that I probably should have tried harder - sent out more apps, network more, ask alum out for coffee chat etc. I will admit that I am not as good as an average native speaker in terms of networking/interviewing skills. This is sth I need to work harder on this time.

Why were you no offered?

It's not that I think potential employers will care much. You can just say you wanted to be closer to home for personal reasons. And now you want to be back in the US because there are just a lot more growth opportunities. It's not hard to craft a story about what happened to your work situation.

It's more for yourself. You need to know what to fix to give yourself a better chance of success in biglaw enivronment. You really don't want to end up in a situation (super unlikely, but perhaps more likely for you than for others) where you get a biglaw position out of Tax LLM only to be back here in 2 years talking about having to lateral.

Unless you are planning to lateral to China and make US salaries. In that case, have fun. My WeChat got a bunch of people like that. They put a year in US biglaw then basically retired to a China "foreign" office making US biglaw money with zero intentions of making partner. They seem really happy.

icansortofmath wrote:Why were you no offered?

It's not that I think potential employers will care much. You can just say you wanted to be closer to home for personal reasons. And now you want to be back in the US because there are just a lot more growth opportunities. It's not hard to craft a story about what happened to your work situation.

It's more for yourself. You need to know what to fix to give yourself a better chance of success in biglaw enivronment. You really don't want to end up in a situation (super unlikely, but perhaps more likely for you than for others) where you get a biglaw position out of Tax LLM only to be back here in 2 years talking about having to lateral.

Unless you are planning to lateral to China and make US salaries. In that case, have fun. My WeChat got a bunch of people like that. They put a year in US biglaw then basically retired to a China "foreign" office making US biglaw money with zero intentions of making partner. They seem really happy.

I was the only SA in that particular Aisa office that year and ended up non-offered. In the previous year there were 2 SAs and 1 got non-offered (not sure the reason). I also made a huge mistake by telling them I want to work in US for a year first before coming back to Asia if possible even though it was made pretty clear in the beginning they intend whoever is hired come right back for work (YES I am the biggest idiot in the world and would slap myself in the face if I have time stone). So not sure if this is all/part of the reason I got non-offered. But also likely that I got non-offered simply because I didn't strike others as smart enough.

I don’t even think that’s a red flag then. They didn’t hire you just because they needed someone right away and you wanted to spend time in US first. You’re fine. Just make it clear though you were in Asia, you did US law work.

You’re in much better position to get US biglaw than most tax LLM candidates.

Just talk to a lot of people in both English and your native language to get their perspectives and get used to that kind of small talk. It’s mostly to fix your own anxieties about your candidacy^. Just be confident and project that you want the job and you will get the offers your credentials qualify you for.

^the not smart enough is a red flag. You ARE smart enough if your credentials and experience are any guide.

I think the red flag is that you had 2 offers and you chose to go to an asian office when it’s pretty common knowledge that many of those positions don’t lead to full-time positions. Did you not want to work in the US or did you not get any traditional SA positions?

That aside, I’ve seen positions posted on symplicity that REQUIRE both a tax LLM and native fluency in Mandarin, so, for those positions, someone with your experience would probably be preferable to a firm (assuming you’re from China).

I’d reach out to NYU and ask how many postings like these pop up in a given year.