NYU Tax LLM Employment Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone. I'm a current 3L who will be attending NYU's Tax Program in the Fall. I have a question geared towards employment opportunities, especially positions in big law. From the Class of 2018 stats, it seems about 22% got big law. I was wondering if any current students could weigh in on whether this was on par with employment opportunities for this year (Class of 2019)? Does it seem like more or fewer students are getting big law? Are most students still going to accounting firms? Thanks in advance!

[Anonymous User]

I can say fairly confidently more than 20% got biglaw (if you include exec comp), even if only about 20% end up working at Biglaw. A lot of people weren't gunning for biglaw, weren't geographically flexible and didn't get NYC, or weren't willing to do exec comp.

If you're geographically flexible, willing to do exec comp, and had decent JD credentials, my impression is you can be below median and still has good chance at biglaw. It's only NYC general tax (and some CA positions with more popular firms) positions that are very competitive. After that particular tier, even kids with middling grades were getting callbacks and offers.

Judging by what I've seen with where people ended up about... with my just unscientific observations, my guess is people spread out more or less like this, with hardest to get on top.

Tiers:
1A. NYC gen tax V10 (most interviews, including an offer, I got in this tier were before 1st semester grades)
I actually don't know where DC general tax is on this... I actually don't know people who got those positions so I assume they are tough to get and belong with NYC gen tax?
1B. NYC gen tax with the rest (some started pre-TIP, looks like about ~3.5 tax llm + decent JD as cutoff)

2A. Big 4 Washington DC National Tax - maybe in a tier by itself. Really close to NYC gen tax in terms of credentials of people they ended up taking but they seem to be looking for pretty specific personality traits (namely, actual interest in tax)

2B.
Big 4 NYC Int Tax/M&A. NYC big 4 int tax/M&A positions were competitive. Not as grade sensitive as general tax in terms of cutoffs but still very competitive and pretty clear they are serious about culture fit. Some people taking these offers turned down NYC gen tax.
NYC Exec Comp. Maybe a little more grade sensitive but I think there are more positions than in Big 4 NYC int tax/M&A.

After the 2B group, positions open up a lot and everyone pretty much got something:
non-NYC biglaw - LOTS of positions in exec comp specifically but also quite a bit of SALT/real estate stuff, really mixed. Ties matter. I know a few kids with subpar JD grades and subpar tax grades getting market or close to it law jobs at regional offices.
Big 4 NYC non-int tax/M&A
Big 4 non-NYC M&A

The backups are basically tax jobs everywhere else. This includes jobs with places like Grant Thornton (accounting just below Big 4 basically) and some specialty groups within consulting firms.

There are also non-market paying (but still more than Big 4) law firms up and down the tiers... but they are truly all over the place depending on location and practice area.

[Anonymous User]

Things may have changed, but the above is not how people viewed the job prospects when I was in my LLM a few years ago.

When I was there:
1a) V10 Tax NY
1b) V10 Tax anywhere else (preferably DC/CA/CHI)
2a) V100 Tax NY
2b) V100 Tax anywhere else
3) Biglaw Exec Comp (can’t break down more because there are so few jobs)
4) NY Big 4 M&A/ITS
5) Major Non-NYC Big 4 M&A/ITS (Chicago/ATL)
6) Everything else

Maybe the thinking has changed, but, given the M&A aspect and the $$$ of an exec comp position at Skadden/Kirkland (even Goodwin/Ropes/WSGR), it was hard for people to turn down.

Maybe people have realized that Exec Comp may be too narrow a field to go into, especially at the large firms that focus solely on large transactions. Or, maybe people are worried that these groups are becoming highly leveraged and are concerned about the potential recession.

FWIW, there are a handful of former biglaw associates in the program that absolutely refuse to consider biglaw again.

If I had to guess, I’d say 30-40% will probably “get” a biglaw offer in some city doing tax/exec comp, but only 20-30% will end up actually taking those offers.

[Anonymous User]

I think preference list is pretty much like what you said still. People find it hard to turn down the salary and Vx brand. I was taking more in terms of selectivity.

I am surprised you said exec comp is so few in number. My impression from talking to alums from last year and classmates this year is exec comp jobs are more plentiful than general tax.

[Anonymous User]

I think preference list is pretty much like what you said still. People find it hard to turn down the salary and Vx brand. I was taking more in terms of selectivity.

I am surprised you said exec comp is so few in number. My impression from talking to alums from last year and classmates this year is exec comp jobs are more plentiful than general tax.

I think even for selectivity, my list stands. My year, in order to get exec comp, you almost had to have finished at least median at a top 25 JD program or be a URM. LLM grades mattered less because, as you probably know, exec comp is only tangentially related to tax.

As for exec comp being smaller, I meant in general terms and not in NYU/GT hiring terms. Most firms are able to fill their tax departments from summer classes, so there is no need to reach into the LLM pool. But if you look at the sheer number of total tax v exec comp positions, then there are far fewer exec comp jobs. I should’ve clarified that that’s why I couldn’t create an a/b section for exec comp

[Anonymous User]

Then we have a disagreement on exec selectivity. This could be there are just more positions in the last few years or that news is getting out the area is a niche trap.

I know quite a few kids with questionable grades from both tax and JD from schools ranking in the 30-60s getting (non-NYC) Exec comp offers, not V10, but V100. Basically if you're willing to work in a regional exec comp office of a firm known to be a sweatshop, you have a good shot at getting biglaw.

I agree with the observation general tax positions are filled by summer associates.

[Anonymous User]

What about estate planning, private client positions? Are these positions competitive? Are there many job postings or employers looking to hire in this practice area?

[Anonymous User]

What about estate planning, private client positions? Are these positions competitive? Are there many job postings or employers looking to hire in this practice area?

There are a healthy number of postings for estate planning. For the most part, positions have been with 10-20 lawyer firms in small cities. I know of only one person in the program going for estate planning. I don't think it's competitive. The impression I get is that they really look for geographic ties, fit, and prior experience/commitment to private client work.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for all the responses. This has been super helpful. Is the general consensus that non-NYC big law is equally as competitive amongst the different cities? I'm originally from the DC area but am doing my JD in Boston so would be open to either those markets as well.

[Anonymous User]

I assume DC is about as competitive as if not more competitive than NYC just because I don’t know anyone getting DC biglaw tax. It’s a big drop off after that. CA positions are also sought after but this year at least they were hiring so many they clearly dipped pretty low into the LLM class.

Don’t remember seeing a lot of Boston and Chicago positions and I don’t know anyone that got those. I wasn’t looking for those either though.

For the most part, the regional firms/offices seemed to be very serious about local ties and weren’t (especially out of V10) strict about cutoffs.

[Anonymous User]

If by DC biglaw you mean Covington, Caplin & Drysdale, etc then it's more competitive than everywhere else. I don't think Dechert/Cadwalader DC are nearly as competitive though.

California biglaw took people with really low GPAs (3.0ish) that went to California law schools.

[Anonymous User]

With regard to estate planning--I know a few people who are in the program for estate planning. I don't really think the positions are as competitive as other groups, but there aren't a lot of postings in NYC. I think Day Pitney was the only OCI firm hiring for estate planning, and while they had lots of openings, I don't believe any were in NYC.

OP mentioned DC and Boston. If you are talking about general tax, I have heard of people in our program getting jobs in cities, but there are very few spots and they seem very competitive--on par with NYC general tax.

Otherwise, I echo the sentiments of others in the thread. If you want big law and are geographically flexible and open to exec comp, you will very likely land something.

[icansortofmath]

I don't have much to add except one thing. I saw a lot of international students struggle. A lot of regionals don't want to sponsor and Big 4 listings explicitly said they won't sponsor (but they still ended up taking some internationals so I don't know how strict they are about that). Some of the internationals were basically forced into second-tier jobs (non-big 4, non-biglaw) with big firms that sponsor but don't pay as well.

It's not a bad outcome anyway but internationals should be aware.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for all the responses. This has been super helpful. Is the general consensus that non-NYC big law is equally as competitive amongst the different cities? I'm originally from the DC area but am doing my JD in Boston so would be open to either those markets as well.

I would agree with what has been said above that probably somewhere around 30% of NYU students got a biglaw offer this year. TIP was highly competitive for general tax positions and arguably the firms that were hiring for general tax from Boston such as Morgan Lewis and DC such as Covington, Eversheds, Baker McKenzie, etc. were harder to get a position with than the NYC firms. NYC seemed to have been more interested in school/grades/interest in tax, while DC/Boston was interested in those things as well as potential ties to the area and seemed to be much more focused on fit---at least from the callbacks I had.

As an aside I wouldn't put much stock into the rankings above differentiating between V10 and everyone else. A number of firms that are not V10 have a better reputation in tax than most of the V10 firms -- i.e. Baker McKenzie, Eversheds, Caplin & Drysdale, Covington (in DC), Ropes (Boston), McDermott, etc. So to say that V10 is better when you absolutely know tax is what you want to do is just wrong in my opinion.

[Anonymous User]

Baker McKenzie?
BS - no one got Baker McKenzie out of the NYU LLM last year.

[Anonymous User]

I don’t know about last year but I know at least one person that got Baker offer. He turned it down.

[Anonymous User]

Baker McKenzie?
BS - no one got Baker McKenzie out of the NYU LLM last year.

Same as above, don't know about last year, but I know someone who turned down Baker McKenzie this year. I also know multiple people who turned down Baker McKenzie callbacks this year.

[Anonymous User]

OP here again. So it looks like 20-30% got big law from this year's class. Does anyone know if the split was 50-50 exec comp to general tax positions? This thread has been very informative so thanks everybody

[Anonymous User]

Baker McKenzie?
BS - no one got Baker McKenzie out of the NYU LLM last year.

I don't think anyone claimed that someone accepted a Baker McKenzie job last year. I received an offer from them this year through TIP (NYU).

OP here again. So it looks like 20-30% got big law from this year's class. Does anyone know if the split was 50-50 exec comp to general tax positions? This thread has been very informative so thanks everybody

If we are talking biglaw jobs then I'd say it was probably 1/3 general tax and 2/3 exec comp/SALT.

[Anonymous User]

My experience is the NYC general tax partners knew pretty much exactly what they wanted. Law work, decent JD, and decent LLM (if available, some were recruiting before grades came out.)

They were basically looking for people who already could get biglaw (did get in a lot of cases) but decided they wanted to do tax or go to NYC for some reason.

I can't emphasize this enough. If you weren't NYC biglaw material in JD, you're gonna have to really kill it first semester (3.5 at least, maybe 3.7) and do well at TIP to be competitive for NYC general tax.

Practically this means if you're coming to the Tax LLM program because you didn't get NYC/DC biglaw out of JD, you need to be okay with working for big 4 and/or outside of NYC/DC/Chicago (judging by posts in this thread).

[Anonymous User]

California biglaw took people with really low GPAs (3.0ish) that went to California law schools.

I heard of someone getting a big law exec comp position in CA recently. Supposedly that person has a low GPA (below 3), so it looked like either CA firms are having a hard time finding people to apply to those positions and they're not picky at all, or they're really picky about candidates with major ties to the region. It kind of makes me wonder if I should've not accepted a NYC big 4 position in the fall and instead applied to those positions.

[WanyeKest]

What about places like Houston or Dallas with an applicant who has very strong ties?

[Anonymous User]

What about places like Houston or Dallas with an applicant who has very strong ties?

Meadows in Dallas interviewed in the fall and I think they took someone. Norton Rose (Several locations--preference for Houston), McDermott (Dallas), and Haynes and Boone (I think Dallas) came to TIP--I don't know who, if anyone, is going there.

I believe the Meadows and McDermott positions were both tax controversy roles.

A few people took accounting firm jobs in Houston. Exxon also came in the Spring and I believe they prefer Texas ties.

[Anonymous User]

To clear up any confusion, alot of people received biglaw offers (most people who received offers had multiple) and defintiely more than last year. There were many positions in Exec Comp and Tax this year as well but few outside of NY and DC. I think most people who had multiple interviews had a 3.5+ and those with lower grades may have only had one or two big law interviews. I'm sure there were also people who didn't get any and went the accounting firm route. The interviews are primarily personality based, so if you get an interview with a firm and interview well you have a good shot get even if your grades are slightly lower. The Tax groups at firms are relatively small so it's the same group whether you sit in NYC, DC, Boston, Chicago you all do the same work. For many people it came down to where the offers were and if they had to take another bar. It pays to explore all your options and practice interviewing with the accouting firms in the fall to prepare. The fall is also a great time to have your friends at firms send your resume around, they love the opportunity for a giant referral bonus and you may get a job out of it. I guess you should also keep in mind that there are less jobs outside of New York in Corporate Tax so alot of people end up looking in jobs in other markets, which is how people end up in Exec Comp or non-NY Tax... or they want to move back home and find a job there.

[Anonymous User]

I don't have much to add except one thing. I saw a lot of international students struggle. A lot of regionals don't want to sponsor and Big 4 listings explicitly said they won't sponsor (but they still ended up taking some internationals so I don't know how strict they are about that). Some of the internationals were basically forced into second-tier jobs (non-big 4, non-biglaw) with big firms that sponsor but don't pay as well.

It's not a bad outcome anyway but internationals should be aware.

Hi, I am an international student enrolled in the ITP for the 2020 class. Could you please send me a message, I have some questions relating to the above and I can't send a message yet as I'm new to the forum.

Thanks.