[Redacted at OP's request]
Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:43 pm
[Redacted at OP's request]
Law School Discussion Forums
https://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/
https://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=300886
So you're at NYU, I guess. What were your other grades? oCS should give out a list of firms that aren't so grade sensitive. Think mid-law/some biglaw. You definitely need to have your interview game on, and an explanation, which is what Irene is there for! You can aways improve your grades (take classes that look good but require papers as finals, if that's your strong suit) 2L and re-interview.anon3458 wrote:It's unclear where I stand ~50% into 1L, but got Cs on two exams and desperately need to improve before Spring exams.
If I am still seemingly at the very bottom like this, how should I approach OCI? Has anyone been in this situation and still gotten a job?
is there any benefit or need for you to guess/out the school that OP went to or is that just something cool you thought you would do?Anonymous User wrote:So you're at NYU, I guess. What were your other grades? oCS should give out a list of firms that aren't so grade sensitive. Think mid-law/some biglaw. You definitely need to have your interview game on, and an explanation, which is what Irene is there for! You can aways improve your grades (take classes that look good but require papers as finals, if that's your strong suit) 2L and re-interview.anon3458 wrote:It's unclear where I stand ~50% into 1L, but got Cs on two exams and desperately need to improve before Spring exams.
If I am still seemingly at the very bottom like this, how should I approach OCI? Has anyone been in this situation and still gotten a job?
At least in NYC it's a pretty badly kept secrets that litigation tends to require higher grades.anon3458 wrote:So corporate only? Just so I'm understanding, it will be easier to get callbacks for corporate?BrainsyK wrote:This is all standard stuff, but not a whole lot else to say.
1. Network hard in NYC, you hometown market, and any small markets that don't typically see T6 grads that you have decent ties to.
2. Bid only for corporate positions in NYC with firms that have big summer classes.
3. The battle isn't over. Try really, really hard to pull your grades up to a 3.0.
4. Practice interviewing a lot with OCS and with other people.
5. Don't be a weirdo. I cannot stress this enough. This is equally as bad as having bad grades. It's also very hard to do because being a weirdo also tends to correlate with being self-unaware so find someone who will be honest with you. If you're at Columbia, Jay Rhoderick is an excellent interview coach who will not bullshit you. Ask OCS staff and they will direct you to him.
I know one person that was in your scenario. They had a problematic personality that people could see coming a mile away. No (legal) job for them of any kind.
Is there a list of firms with the largest SA classes? Or do I have to look at each firm on NALP?
Being on the curve means professors are bound by the administration to give a certain amount of a letter grade (e.g. 50% of the class must receive Bs). However, some discretionary is reserved to professors to give let's say an A+ to students for extraordinary performance, the bad news being that they can also exercise their discretion in the other direction.anon3458 wrote:Can you explain what this means?QContinuum wrote:But none of the T6 have Cs on the curve.
Since OP made clear that they're not going to NYU/Columbia, they're probably going to Chicago (unless they meant to include HYS in T6). According to my interpretation of the student handbook, all that's required to is to maintain a median of a 177 so it might be a UVA situation where professors are free to give really bad grades as long as they maintain a certain median. Maybe a Chicagoan could chime in on this.QContinuum wrote:Lots of good advice ITT but so far no one has mentioned what I think is perhaps the most important thing OP needs to do right now: Figure out why they got not one but two Cs. I don't say this to disparage OP at all, or to rub salt into the wound. But none of the T6 have Cs on the curve. Below-curve discretionary grades are exceedingly rare, and getting two in one semester (from, presumably, two different professors) is basically unheard of at the T6. OP, have you approached those professors to figure out why you did so badly in their classes? Did you do well in your other classes first semester? You will be in a very different situation come OCI if you do much better this semester, vs. if you maintain the same performance from first semester. And at this point, pre-finals, it is still entirely possible for you to turn things around and do much better this semester.
I really think this should be OP's primary focus right now - what went wrong, and how to do better this semester. The other stuff is also important but not quite as critical right this moment.
This is the right take. OP: I was in your position and I bid exclusively Chicago. I came to deeply regret that decision. By all means bid Chicago firms, but you should absolutely bid New York and wherever else you may have ties.BrainsyK wrote:
To be clear OP, aiming for Chicago will almost certainly kill your odds of a biglaw job unless you go to Chicago and are from Chicago. NYC is a much market to access from any of the T6s than Chicago. Your grades are at a spot where I wouldn't try to be picky about any market at EIP/OCI.
It's difficult, and maybe I am missing resources that are publicly accessible, but how does one find out which firms in Chicago and NYC are the least grade conscious? I would PM you but not sure how to do that with the anonymous profile.Anonymous User wrote:BrainsyK wrote: I don't want to be discouraging and I think you will definitely land something great. But you will greatly increase your odds of success if you bid strategically, i.e. less grade-conscious firms in Chicago and NY.
OP, I had three C grades at a T6 a few years ago - just did really poorly my 1L year, and had a couple of professors trying to prove themselves by giving out as many low grades as possible (and clearly I didn't do great on my exams, since it happened to me multiple times). If you can do better this semester, great! But it honestly won't be the end of the world if you just get Bs (try not to get any more Cs). Recognize that some doors are closed, and don't try and pound on those until they open - work on the doors that areQContinuum wrote:Lots of good advice ITT but so far no one has mentioned what I think is perhaps the most important thing OP needs to do right now: Figure out why they got not one but two Cs. I don't say this to disparage OP at all, or to rub salt into the wound. But none of the T6 have Cs on the curve. Below-curve discretionary grades are exceedingly rare, and getting two in one semester (from, presumably, two different professors) is basically unheard of at the T6. OP, have you approached those professors to figure out why you did so badly in their classes? Did you do well in your other classes first semester? You will be in a very different situation come OCI if you do much better this semester, vs. if you maintain the same performance from first semester. And at this point, pre-finals, it is still entirely possible for you to turn things around and do much better this semester.
I really think this should be OP's primary focus right now - what went wrong, and how to do better this semester. The other stuff is also important but not quite as critical right this moment.
Anon poster quoted above here. Your office of career services should have that information. Closer to OCI, they may give you a list with firms and the average gpa of everyone who got an offer at those firms. You might want to consider sitting down one-on-one with someone with OCS to come up with a list. But you definitely should poke around this site a bit. It seems like every year there is at least one thread that lists firms and ranks them on how choosey they are. There are some that are obviously choosey (Cravath) and some that are obviously less so (Katten, Mayer Brown). IME, small boutique firms are much choosier than the big firms.Anonymous User wrote:It's difficult, and maybe I am missing resources that are publicly accessible, but how does one find out which firms in Chicago and NYC are the least grade conscious? I would PM you but not sure how to do that with the anonymous profile.Anonymous User wrote:BrainsyK wrote: I don't want to be discouraging and I think you will definitely land something great. But you will greatly increase your odds of success if you bid strategically, i.e. less grade-conscious firms in Chicago and NY.
This is objectively wrong. UChi absolutely gives (the equivalent of Cs). CN people--we get it you don't get Cs, but stop saying *none* give them out, because they do and it really sucks for us UChi people to feel like we're backwards morons just because our professors actually utilize a curve.anon3458 wrote:Can you explain what this means?QContinuum wrote:But none of the T6 have Cs on the curve.
Thanks for chiming in and for the helpful advice to the OP.lawlzschool wrote:This is objectively wrong. UChi absolutely gives (the equivalent of Cs). CN people--we get it you don't get Cs, but stop saying *none* give them out, because they do and it really sucks for us UChi people to feel like we're backwards morons just because our professors actually utilize a curve.anon3458 wrote:Can you explain what this means?QContinuum wrote:But none of the T6 have Cs on the curve.
Source: I and many of my (smart, As in other classes, law review) classmates have gotten them
Also edited to actually be helpful: I had a well below median GPA with 2 C's. I networked my ass off and ended up with offers in two markets (NYC and Bay Area). I bid nothing in Chicago because 1. I hate it here and 2. I knew it was super competitive, so I can't really offer any good advice there. Absolutely 100% bid NYC. Absolutely 100% go to networking events and talk to people. For people with whom you click, send a follow up email and get coffee. The key is to really be aware of the line between genuine interest and idk normal interaction and gunneriness--its tough but doable.
The situation sucks. The next few months will be super stressful, but keep your chin up and you can do it.
Judging by posts in this thread, the opposite has happened.nixy wrote:Isn’t the argument that Chicago’s numerical scale helps camouflage what’s a C and what’s a B and so on? I realize lots of firms will be able to parse the Chicago numerical scale, but in theory, anyway.
I agree, but keep in mind that the heavy hitters in Houston like K&E, Sidley and V&E are grade whores and bottom 10% at T6 will not even be brought in for an interview. Still worth including in a mass mailing, but don't get your hopes up. You're probably looking at regional firms in Houston rather than national firms.blair.waldorf wrote:I would mass mail Houston hard. They love T6 grads, and I think you would really stand out there as an applicant with your school name. NYC is great, but Houston firms love T6 students and rarely get T6 applicants other than from Harvard. I think you'd stand out there more than you would in NYC (that's not to say don't mass mail NYC--definitely mass mail NYC--but I think you'd have a solid shot at landing something in HTX).
PM me if you want to chat further. I'm happy to give advice.
I disagree with this some, just two pieces of anecdotal evidence but a friend and I, both near bottom 25% at Uchicago, got offers at two of those three each.Anonymous User wrote:I agree, but keep in mind that the heavy hitters in Houston like K&E, Sidley and V&E are grade whores and bottom 10% at T6 will not even be brought in for an interview. Still worth including in a mass mailing, but don't get your hopes up. You're probably looking at regional firms in Houston rather than national firms.blair.waldorf wrote:I would mass mail Houston hard. They love T6 grads, and I think you would really stand out there as an applicant with your school name. NYC is great, but Houston firms love T6 students and rarely get T6 applicants other than from Harvard. I think you'd stand out there more than you would in NYC (that's not to say don't mass mail NYC--definitely mass mail NYC--but I think you'd have a solid shot at landing something in HTX).
PM me if you want to chat further. I'm happy to give advice.
Source: recruiting committee at one of the aforementioned firms.
Please note that Chicago litigation is very difficult to obtain. Not sure how NYU/Columbia plays in Chicago (have met a few folks from those schools) but I do know you need to be above median at Northwestern to be competitive for Chicago lit.anon3458 wrote:Not NYU or Columbia and aiming for the Chicago market.
So I should bid corporate only? How does one find out which firms have the largest SA classes (other than going one-by-one through NALP). Is there a list somewhere?