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Do big law attorneys need to be Excel wizards, or do they never have to use this program, or do they merely need to be proficient with Excel?

This is an interesting thing to be concerned about...

Well you have to use it fairly often in the transactional realm, but I don't think you need to be a "wizard". Nothing you can't quickly google, like most other things with the job.

Anonymous User wrote:Do big law attorneys need to be Excel wizards, or do they never have to use this program, or do they merely need to be proficient with Excel?

In lit, I tend to delegate most excel-type activities to support staff.

For VC work you need to be proficient to model / monitor pro formas and investment rounds.

Yes, I use Excel - spreadsheets can come in handy for various tasks. But my use is fairly basic, it's nothing like the level of mastery expected/required of, say, management consultants or bankers. It's more just using Excel to organize data.

I use excel some, but really you just need to know the basics (or know how to figure out how to do the basics) - if you're trying to decide if it's worth it to take an excel class, then I would say yes, like, a one credit excel class would be pretty helpful, but no one expects you to be able to do anything more complicated than basic formulas, filters, etc.

papermateflair wrote:I use excel some, but really you just need to know the basics (or know how to figure out how to do the basics) - if you're trying to decide if it's worth it to take an excel class, then I would say yes, like, a one credit excel class would be pretty helpful, but no one expects you to be able to do anything more complicated than basic formulas, filters, etc.

what do you consider basic formulas? VLOOKUP, Pivot Tables?

CardozoLaw09 wrote:

papermateflair wrote:I use excel some, but really you just need to know the basics (or know how to figure out how to do the basics) - if you're trying to decide if it's worth it to take an excel class, then I would say yes, like, a one credit excel class would be pretty helpful, but no one expects you to be able to do anything more complicated than basic formulas, filters, etc.

what do you consider basic formulas? VLOOKUP, Pivot Tables?

I doubt most attorneys need to use vlookup or pivot tables. half the bankers I've worked with don't even know what those are

YMMV but being fairly proficient at excel got me into good graces with more than one senior when I started at my firm. Granted, one was impressed by the conditional formatting inbuilt function (Y=green, N=red type stuff). Despite the actual simplicity in that, that senior then recommended me for another, more complicated task to another senior. The second task was way more interesting than what the other juniors on that deal were doing, and because of the generally low level of understanding of excel in law, it impressed some people.

That said, this was almost two years ago and I haven't really used it since, so I may have just gotten lucky.

Right now, not really.

But it's a big plus in a lot of areas. You don't need to be a wizard but if you can write formulas, trace waterfalls, and match the Excel model to the documents you're reviewing, you'll be very valuable in project finance, PE, and M&A just to name a few.

If we project forward though, more and more of the incoming associates will have at least basic Excel skills just because more of them will have picked it up in college even highschool.

Anonymous User wrote:

CardozoLaw09 wrote:

papermateflair wrote:I use excel some, but really you just need to know the basics (or know how to figure out how to do the basics) - if you're trying to decide if it's worth it to take an excel class, then I would say yes, like, a one credit excel class would be pretty helpful, but no one expects you to be able to do anything more complicated than basic formulas, filters, etc.

what do you consider basic formulas? VLOOKUP, Pivot Tables?

I doubt most attorneys need to use vlookup or pivot tables. half the bankers I've worked with don't even know what those are

Yeah, by basic I kind of mean just being able to insert a formula at all. Really, if you understand basic excel concepts, you can look up on the internet whatever else you need, even if it's something more complicated than you've done before. When I think about what a junior associate needs to know how to do in excel, I would say to think about the 60 year old partner you work for and what skills you would need to impress said partner - it's really not a lot. If they need an accountant to do something more complicated, they'll go get an accountant.

guyonabuffalo wrote:YMMV but being fairly proficient at excel got me into good graces with more than one senior when I started at my firm. Granted, one was impressed by the conditional formatting inbuilt function (Y=green, N=red type stuff).

Off topic I know, but eight percent of men of Western European origin are red/green color blind. From a UI perspective, never use R/G alone for conditional formatting on any document that might be used by others.

albanach wrote:

guyonabuffalo wrote:YMMV but being fairly proficient at excel got me into good graces with more than one senior when I started at my firm. Granted, one was impressed by the conditional formatting inbuilt function (Y=green, N=red type stuff).

Off topic I know, but eight percent of men of Western European origin are red/green color blind. From a UI perspective, never use R/G alone for conditional formatting on any document that might be used by others.

As someone who is color-blind, I very much appreciate the sentiment, but this isn't how being color-blind works. Being red-green color blind doesn't mean you don't "see" red or green or they look the same or something. I might get certain shades of yellow and green or blue and purple mixed up occasionally, but I have no problem differentiating between green and red, which is why most of us don't have issues with traffic lights.

toast and bananas wrote: As someone who is color-blind, I very much appreciate the sentiment, but this isn't how being color-blind works. Being red-green color blind doesn't mean you don't "see" red or green or they look the same or something. I might get certain shades of yellow and green or blue and purple mixed up occasionally, but I have no problem differentiating between green and red, which is why most of us don't have issues with traffic lights.

I'm not an ophthalmologist, but Deuteranopia does result in an inability to distinguish between red and green. Perhaps you have Deuteranomaly or another form of color blindeness?

Traffic lights have the advantage of being vertically oriented. As long as you know what a traffic light looks like, you can tell green from red, even if you see in greyscale.

Rudimentary knowledge of excel is very helpful, even in litigation. This means sorting, filtering, basic formulas such as summing and averaging, navigating cross-references between tabs and being able to interpret what the face of a spreadsheet means. Some big firms include these primers in onboarding.

More complex operations like vlookup and pivot tables are rarely ever necessary. If you find yourself using any of the data analysis tools, you’re probably doing it wrong and should forward the work to your expert and/or client. (Even if you know how, you shouldn’t be billing for that work.)

Would taking a course with the following description be useful?

Business Analytics:
Analytics is the discovery and communication of meaningful patterns in data. This course begins by providing students with an analytics toolkit, reinforcing basic probability and statistics while emphasizing the value and pitfalls of reasoning with data. Then the course extends the statistical techniques to allow for the exploration of relations between variables, primarily through multivariate regression.

In addition to learning basic regression skills, including modeling and estimation, students will deepen their understanding of hypothesis testing and how to make inferences and predictions from data. Students will also learn new principles such as identification and robustness. The course has an intense focus on managerially relevant applications, cases, and interpretations, with an emphasis on connections among analytical tools, data, and decision-making.

Law students will gain insight into the analytic methods used by their clients, and in significant commercial transactions and litigation -- ranging from financial industries, antitrust, class actions, to government regulation.

Anonymous User wrote:Would taking a course with the following description be useful?

Business Analytics:
Analytics is the discovery and communication of meaningful patterns in data. This course begins by providing students with an analytics toolkit, reinforcing basic probability and statistics while emphasizing the value and pitfalls of reasoning with data. Then the course extends the statistical techniques to allow for the exploration of relations between variables, primarily through multivariate regression.

In addition to learning basic regression skills, including modeling and estimation, students will deepen their understanding of hypothesis testing and how to make inferences and predictions from data. Students will also learn new principles such as identification and robustness. The course has an intense focus on managerially relevant applications, cases, and interpretations, with an emphasis on connections among analytical tools, data, and decision-making.

Law students will gain insight into the analytic methods used by their clients, and in significant commercial transactions and litigation -- ranging from financial industries, antitrust, class actions, to government regulation.

Others should chime in too, but, my opinion is that, yes, such a course is useful - but not that useful. If you have nothing better to do, and it doesn't cost anything, absolutely, go learn the stuff. But, if you have other classes you can take, or you have a life, or it costs money, don't bother taking a class in something you might never need, and if you do need it, you can learn very quickly from the professionals who do it every day.

It's useful to get the concept, but the experts will create or deconstruct the models, and they will be providing expert testimony. As part of that process, they'll explain to you as much as you'll ever need to know. If you do understand these things, it'll be a bit easier and more efficient, but it won't make a world of difference.

Look at it this way, Attorney Vinnie Gambini doesn't need to know the correct ignition timing be on a 1955 Bel Air Chevrolet, with a 327 cubic-inch engine and a four-barrel carburetor - his expert will say that Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center.

FND wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Would taking a course with the following description be useful?

Business Analytics:
Analytics is the discovery and communication of meaningful patterns in data. This course begins by providing students with an analytics toolkit, reinforcing basic probability and statistics while emphasizing the value and pitfalls of reasoning with data. Then the course extends the statistical techniques to allow for the exploration of relations between variables, primarily through multivariate regression.

In addition to learning basic regression skills, including modeling and estimation, students will deepen their understanding of hypothesis testing and how to make inferences and predictions from data. Students will also learn new principles such as identification and robustness. The course has an intense focus on managerially relevant applications, cases, and interpretations, with an emphasis on connections among analytical tools, data, and decision-making.

Law students will gain insight into the analytic methods used by their clients, and in significant commercial transactions and litigation -- ranging from financial industries, antitrust, class actions, to government regulation.

Others should chime in too, but, my opinion is that, yes, such a course is useful - but not that useful. If you have nothing better to do, and it doesn't cost anything, absolutely, go learn the stuff. But, if you have other classes you can take, or you have a life, or it costs money, don't bother taking a class in something you might never need, and if you do need it, you can learn very quickly from the professionals who do it every day.

It's useful to get the concept, but the experts will create or deconstruct the models, and they will be providing expert testimony. As part of that process, they'll explain to you as much as you'll ever need to know. If you do understand these things, it'll be a bit easier and more efficient, but it won't make a world of difference.

Look at it this way, Attorney Vinnie Gambini doesn't need to know the correct ignition timing be on a 1955 Bel Air Chevrolet, with a 327 cubic-inch engine and a four-barrel carburetor - his expert will say that Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center.

I'm still in law school, so it;d be easy to take. However I worry that I'd get a B or something.

Anonymous User wrote: I'm still in law school, so it;d be easy to take. However I worry that I'd get a B or something.

Don't take any class you might not get a great grade in. Grades matter more than knowledge in law school. Anything you need to know you'll learn on the job.

Spend a few hours on YouTube and you'll learn everything you need to know about Excel. Watch tutorials and follow along in an open spreadsheet.

I’ve used it in the concept of L&E - plugging in time sheets and finding out if there are violations via formulas.

Anonymous User wrote:

FND wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Would taking a course with the following description be useful?

Business Analytics:
Analytics is the discovery and communication of meaningful patterns in data. This course begins by providing students with an analytics toolkit, reinforcing basic probability and statistics while emphasizing the value and pitfalls of reasoning with data. Then the course extends the statistical techniques to allow for the exploration of relations between variables, primarily through multivariate regression.

In addition to learning basic regression skills, including modeling and estimation, students will deepen their understanding of hypothesis testing and how to make inferences and predictions from data. Students will also learn new principles such as identification and robustness. The course has an intense focus on managerially relevant applications, cases, and interpretations, with an emphasis on connections among analytical tools, data, and decision-making.

Law students will gain insight into the analytic methods used by their clients, and in significant commercial transactions and litigation -- ranging from financial industries, antitrust, class actions, to government regulation.

Others should chime in too, but, my opinion is that, yes, such a course is useful - but not that useful. If you have nothing better to do, and it doesn't cost anything, absolutely, go learn the stuff. But, if you have other classes you can take, or you have a life, or it costs money, don't bother taking a class in something you might never need, and if you do need it, you can learn very quickly from the professionals who do it every day.

It's useful to get the concept, but the experts will create or deconstruct the models, and they will be providing expert testimony. As part of that process, they'll explain to you as much as you'll ever need to know. If you do understand these things, it'll be a bit easier and more efficient, but it won't make a world of difference.

Look at it this way, Attorney Vinnie Gambini doesn't need to know the correct ignition timing be on a 1955 Bel Air Chevrolet, with a 327 cubic-inch engine and a four-barrel carburetor - his expert will say that Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center.

I'm still in law school, so it;d be easy to take. However I worry that I'd get a B or something.

What if the class is a prereq for a business class on corporate finance? I have heard this an especially important class for transactional lawyers.

Course Description:
Finance 1 covers managers' and investors' most fundamental finance decision: how to value a project or an asset. Managers must determine the value of building a factory, entering a new market, or purchasing an entire firm when deciding in which projects to invest. Similarly, individuals must assess the value of financial securities to decide how to invest their wealth. Finance 1 teaches methods for valuing projects or assets. These valuation tools lay the foundation for all work in capital markets and corporate finance. Law students will be able to better understand the decisionmaking of their clients, participate in the multidisciplinary teams necessary to execute complex transactions, and assess financial issues arising in litigation, regulation, and other contexts.

Important to take a finance class in law school, IMO, but doesn't have to be any specific finance class. There are presumably other relevant classes aside from the b-school's Corporate Finance offering. The law school itself ought to have multiple relevant classes.

Anonymous User wrote:What if the class is a prereq for a business class on corporate finance? I have heard this an especially important class for transactional lawyers.

If you haven't taken a corporate finance class before law school, don't bother taking one in law school. Yes, the information is good to know, but you're better off taking a "finance for lawyers" type of class at this point.

edit: didn't mean to hit anonymous. sorry.