V5/WLRK or Lit Boutique? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm trying to decide whether to return to WLRK or apply to a lit boutique (like KVN, SG). If anyone has insight on either of the 2 questions below, I'd really appreciate your feedback:

1. I know WLRK is busier and more demanding that other top Big Law firms. But how does it compare to other top litigation boutiques? My sense is that top Big Law will require around ~2200-2400 hours/year, and that WLRK will require even more. But what's the breakdown of WLRK v. lit boutiques? Or are they both roughly the same in terms of demanding the partners will be, facetime reqs, the sheer number of hours billed?

2. In terms of WLRK v. lit boutiques, is either one more likely to give more substantive experience to junior associates than the other (on the litigation side of WLRK, obviously)?

[theneuro]

Susman is going to work you more than your typical big law firm in NYC. I'm not sure how Susman compares to Wachtell in terms of hours but for what it's worth I've never heard anyone say a firm works people harder than Wachtell. Keker is going to be a different story. Keker is in SF and California firm culture is different than NYC firm culture. You'll work California big law hours but not NYC big law hours.

[LBJ's Hair]

Feel like hours really depends on the lit boutique, and even the specific partner you're working with at the particular boutique. Like KVN isn't gonna look the same as Susman's Houston office, which probably isn't the same as their NYC office, etc. Probably gonna want to talk to alums/take interviews there first, and ask the associates some pretty direct questions, before you decide.

Another thing to consider which you haven't mentioned - probably the most important, to be honest - is what type of litigation you want to do. WLRK's practice is pretty different than Boies Schiller's, etc

[Auxilio]

Echoing LBJ the hours requirements are going to vary a lot based on which boutique. Susman/Kellogg (who will pay around WLRK amounts) will have similar hour requirements to WLRK. MTO is around 2000-2100 I believe, I've heard Keker is slightly above that. I'm not sure on others. Most boutiques I've looked into are really flexible on face time requirements.

A huge factor you didn't mention is location. WLRK is in NYC. A lot of boutiques are in CA/DC (and some others of course). Do you have a preference there, I think that's as reasonable a motivating factor as anything else.

In the end, I'd consider applying to some boutiques either way if you are thinking about it. (1) you get the chance to talk to more people and get a bit of a feel for the firms; (2) it's really not that much effort to at least send out a few apps, especially if you are only considering a handful of firms; (3) I don't know what your credentials are, but you might not even get an offer at the firm you want, although presumably you have good credentials so that might make the decision for you; and (4) if you don't apply soon you can't change your mind later—most of the top boutiques are interviewing now.

[Anonymous User]

I believe in recent years many KVN attorneys have worked more than typical SF big law hours, but certainly not WLRK hours. I also think that MTO hours have crept up from their former 2000ish range, at least from speaking with friends. Susman LA is on average going to be more than both of those firms, but my sense is that it is highly dependent on whether you go to trial on any given year.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses so far. I want to stay East Coast. Someone mentioned that "WLRK's practice is pretty different than Boies Schiller's, etc." In what way? Do you mean the underlying subject matter (WLRK does a lot of white-collar crim law/securities lit, while Boies does more general commercial lit?) Or do you mean different in some other way?

I do know that SG is very trial-focused, but its practice also seems to have less areas of coverage than Kellogg.

[Anonymous User]

Bump. OP, I'm curious as to whether you ended up applying, what your current thoughts are, etc. I'm in a similar situation as you.

[Lawbrah2020]

Thanks for the responses so far. I want to stay East Coast. Someone mentioned that "WLRK's practice is pretty different than Boies Schiller's, etc." In what way? Do you mean the underlying subject matter (WLRK does a lot of white-collar crim law/securities lit, while Boies does more general commercial lit?) Or do you mean different in some other way?

I do know that SG is very trial-focused, but its practice also seems to have less areas of coverage than Kellogg.

I know this is a year late, but I'll answer this question for posterity. I am a YHS grad with perfect grades and a dual DC/2/9th and SDNY/EDNY/ ND Cal/ CD Cal clerk dating another lawyer with similar stats. Between the two of us, we've summered/ worked at many of the firms you listed.

WLRK does corporate governance litigation with a little bit of securities and white collar work mixed in. But mostly corporate governance.

Susman is the true pirates. They do mostly plaintiff side stuff but also some defense. Mostly big commercial stuff, but they'll do anything that seems profitable.

Bartlit Beck does mostly big corporate defense litigation. All stars.

Kellogg does a lot, and it depends a lot on what's going on at the firm and which partner you get. For example, right now they're defending facebook--so I imagine that's an all-hands-on-deck situation. Some partners do terrorism stuff, others do a mix of different types of plaintiff, and others do defense. They're famous for their antitrust work and their telecommunications work.

[Anonymous User]

Not strictly related, but trying to make summer decisions right now. What benefits are there to summering at a lit boutique that does not give return offers, over spending your full summer at a firm like WLRK/Covington DC?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses so far. I want to stay East Coast. Someone mentioned that "WLRK's practice is pretty different than Boies Schiller's, etc." In what way? Do you mean the underlying subject matter (WLRK does a lot of white-collar crim law/securities lit, while Boies does more general commercial lit?) Or do you mean different in some other way?

I do know that SG is very trial-focused, but its practice also seems to have less areas of coverage than Kellogg.

I know this is a year late, but I'll answer this question for posterity. I am a YHS grad with perfect grades and a dual DC/2/9th and SDNY/EDNY/ ND Cal/ CD Cal clerk dating another lawyer with similar stats. Between the two of us, we've summered/ worked at many of the firms you listed.

WLRK does corporate governance litigation with a little bit of securities and white collar work mixed in. But mostly corporate governance.

Susman is the true pirates. They do mostly plaintiff side stuff but also some defense. Mostly big commercial stuff, but they'll do anything that seems profitable.

Bartlit Beck does mostly big corporate defense litigation. All stars.

Kellogg does a lot, and it depends a lot on what's going on at the firm and which partner you get. For example, right now they're defending facebook--so I imagine that's an all-hands-on-deck situation. Some partners do terrorism stuff, others do a mix of different types of plaintiff, and others do defense. They're famous for their antitrust work and their telecommunications work.

I have similar stats to you and am making the choice between going back to WLRK and going to a lit boutique. You mention these 3 lit boutiques - are there any that you think are on par with those three? I have an offer at one of the three mentioned but going there specifically doesn't appeal to me because of culture (also summered there). Thoughts on Selendy & Gay, Wilkinson Stekloff, Kaplan Hecker, Hueston Hennigan?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses so far. I want to stay East Coast. Someone mentioned that "WLRK's practice is pretty different than Boies Schiller's, etc." In what way? Do you mean the underlying subject matter (WLRK does a lot of white-collar crim law/securities lit, while Boies does more general commercial lit?) Or do you mean different in some other way?

I do know that SG is very trial-focused, but its practice also seems to have less areas of coverage than Kellogg.

I know this is a year late, but I'll answer this question for posterity. I am a YHS grad with perfect grades and a dual DC/2/9th and SDNY/EDNY/ ND Cal/ CD Cal clerk dating another lawyer with similar stats. Between the two of us, we've summered/ worked at many of the firms you listed.

WLRK does corporate governance litigation with a little bit of securities and white collar work mixed in. But mostly corporate governance.

Susman is the true pirates. They do mostly plaintiff side stuff but also some defense. Mostly big commercial stuff, but they'll do anything that seems profitable.

Bartlit Beck does mostly big corporate defense litigation. All stars.

Kellogg does a lot, and it depends a lot on what's going on at the firm and which partner you get. For example, right now they're defending facebook--so I imagine that's an all-hands-on-deck situation. Some partners do terrorism stuff, others do a mix of different types of plaintiff, and others do defense. They're famous for their antitrust work and their telecommunications work.

I have similar stats to you and am making the choice between going back to WLRK and going to a lit boutique. You mention these 3 lit boutiques - are there any that you think are on par with those three? I have an offer at one of the three mentioned but going there specifically doesn't appeal to me because of culture (also summered there). Thoughts on Selendy & Gay, Wilkinson Stekloff, Kaplan Hecker, Hueston Hennigan?

Selendy & Gay has given out a *lot* of offers this year, both from what’s been reported on here and what I’ve heard IRL, I’d be surprised if it doesn’t end up with pretty high leverage.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses so far. I want to stay East Coast. Someone mentioned that "WLRK's practice is pretty different than Boies Schiller's, etc." In what way? Do you mean the underlying subject matter (WLRK does a lot of white-collar crim law/securities lit, while Boies does more general commercial lit?) Or do you mean different in some other way?

I do know that SG is very trial-focused, but its practice also seems to have less areas of coverage than Kellogg.

I know this is a year late, but I'll answer this question for posterity. I am a YHS grad with perfect grades and a dual DC/2/9th and SDNY/EDNY/ ND Cal/ CD Cal clerk dating another lawyer with similar stats. Between the two of us, we've summered/ worked at many of the firms you listed.

WLRK does corporate governance litigation with a little bit of securities and white collar work mixed in. But mostly corporate governance.

Susman is the true pirates. They do mostly plaintiff side stuff but also some defense. Mostly big commercial stuff, but they'll do anything that seems profitable.

Bartlit Beck does mostly big corporate defense litigation. All stars.

Kellogg does a lot, and it depends a lot on what's going on at the firm and which partner you get. For example, right now they're defending facebook--so I imagine that's an all-hands-on-deck situation. Some partners do terrorism stuff, others do a mix of different types of plaintiff, and others do defense. They're famous for their antitrust work and their telecommunications work.

I have similar stats to you and am making the choice between going back to WLRK and going to a lit boutique. You mention these 3 lit boutiques - are there any that you think are on par with those three? I have an offer at one of the three mentioned but going there specifically doesn't appeal to me because of culture (also summered there). Thoughts on Selendy & Gay, Wilkinson Stekloff, Kaplan Hecker, Hueston Hennigan?

Selendy & Gay has given out a *lot* of offers this year, both from what’s been reported on here and what I’ve heard IRL, I’d be surprised if it doesn’t end up with pretty high leverage.

It's also an extremely new firm (started 2018) and doesn't have at all the kind of name recognition of the firms mentioned above. From grade data at my T6, it's nowhere near as grade selective as the above, either. They seem to be growing quickly and do interesting work, but at this point in time it's nowhere close to comparable to Susman or WLRK.

[xiaoguami]

Not strictly related, but trying to make summer decisions right now. What benefits are there to summering at a lit boutique that does not give return offers, over spending your full summer at a firm like WLRK/Covington DC?

None. Summer at a place that gives you a return offer. Lit boutiques are usually pretty flexible on summers, at least mine which is one of the ones named here is, so if you're interested in the boutique you should just split with a place that gives you an offer.

[Anonymous User]

Not strictly related, but trying to make summer decisions right now. What benefits are there to summering at a lit boutique that does not give return offers, over spending your full summer at a firm like WLRK/Covington DC?

None. Summer at a place that gives you a return offer. Lit boutiques are usually pretty flexible on summers, at least mine which is one of the ones named here is, so if you're interested in the boutique you should just split with a place that gives you an offer.

To be clear, I would be splitting with the return offer firm if I went to the lit boutique for a few weeks. I was just wondering if there were tangible benefits to splitting with a lit boutique that outweighed missing an extra few weeks of networking at the return offer firm or otherwise enjoying summer.

[Iowahawk]

Not strictly related, but trying to make summer decisions right now. What benefits are there to summering at a lit boutique that does not give return offers, over spending your full summer at a firm like WLRK/Covington DC?

None. Summer at a place that gives you a return offer. Lit boutiques are usually pretty flexible on summers, at least mine which is one of the ones named here is, so if you're interested in the boutique you should just split with a place that gives you an offer.

To be clear, I would be splitting with the return offer firm if I went to the lit boutique for a few weeks. I was just wondering if there were tangible benefits to splitting with a lit boutique that outweighed missing an extra few weeks of networking at the return offer firm or otherwise enjoying summer.

You should clearly split imo. Summer programs are a bit of a waste of time for everyone involved, though a lucrative one for the summers, so you're not missing much, and a split summer has to help get your foot in the door at the boutique or they wouldn't offer it. Plus two shots at a firm you might like versus one, plenty of people don't like their 2L summer firm for whatever reason and have try the tricky 3L market.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses so far. I want to stay East Coast. Someone mentioned that "WLRK's practice is pretty different than Boies Schiller's, etc." In what way? Do you mean the underlying subject matter (WLRK does a lot of white-collar crim law/securities lit, while Boies does more general commercial lit?) Or do you mean different in some other way?

I do know that SG is very trial-focused, but its practice also seems to have less areas of coverage than Kellogg.

I know this is a year late, but I'll answer this question for posterity. I am a YHS grad with perfect grades and a dual DC/2/9th and SDNY/EDNY/ ND Cal/ CD Cal clerk dating another lawyer with similar stats. Between the two of us, we've summered/ worked at many of the firms you listed.

WLRK does corporate governance litigation with a little bit of securities and white collar work mixed in. But mostly corporate governance.

Susman is the true pirates. They do mostly plaintiff side stuff but also some defense. Mostly big commercial stuff, but they'll do anything that seems profitable.

Bartlit Beck does mostly big corporate defense litigation. All stars.

Kellogg does a lot, and it depends a lot on what's going on at the firm and which partner you get. For example, right now they're defending facebook--so I imagine that's an all-hands-on-deck situation. Some partners do terrorism stuff, others do a mix of different types of plaintiff, and others do defense. They're famous for their antitrust work and their telecommunications work.

I have similar stats to you and am making the choice between going back to WLRK and going to a lit boutique. You mention these 3 lit boutiques - are there any that you think are on par with those three? I have an offer at one of the three mentioned but going there specifically doesn't appeal to me because of culture (also summered there). Thoughts on Selendy & Gay, Wilkinson Stekloff, Kaplan Hecker, Hueston Hennigan?

It depends on what you want to do. Hueston is well respected of course. Kaplan Hecker is really great up-and-comers for white collar work.

For plaintiff side stuff, Edelson is great.

When you talk about big name boutiques, I am sure I'm missing something, but this are what come to mind. But if you are more practice area specific you'll find more

[Anonymous User]

In WLRK's litigation group you will mostly support their corporate group and its universe of work. So think of Delaware corporate law, shareholder defense, derivative suits, etc. They ostensibly have white-collar work as well, but it's much smaller and minor. And not much real commercial litigation (they're not even staffed for that kind of work, from what I recall).

As places like Kellogg, Quinn, and Boies, just to name a few, you will see a much greater variety of work, on both sides of the v. There are trade-offs of the usual kind that have been discussed on these boards (time off/control over your schedule v. absolute pay, etc.).

[Anonymous User]

In WLRK's litigation group you will mostly support their corporate group and its universe of work. So think of Delaware corporate law, shareholder defense, derivative suits, etc. They ostensibly have white-collar work as well, but it's much smaller and minor. And not much real commercial litigation (they're not even staffed for that kind of work, from what I recall).

As places like Kellogg, Quinn, and Boies, just to name a few, you will see a much greater variety of work, on both sides of the v. There are trade-offs of the usual kind that have been discussed on these boards (time off/control over your schedule v. absolute pay, etc.).

Anon because I have personal knowledge of a couple of these places.

Derivative suits and shareholder suits are actually a really small part of the practice at WLRK. Mostly company vs company suits. Very few 10b-5s and derivatives vis a vis skadden or PW, e.g., even by a percentage of practice. I’d guess 1/3 suits in Delaware chancery running the gamut (check Law360), 1/3 internal investigations/govt investigations, and 1/3 everything else. That may sound balanced on paper, but that’s still certainly more Delaware matters than most other big law firms/lit boutiques. So you really can’t escape getting up to speed on some corporate lingo/doctrine. With the exception of finding internal investigation work, which is often confidential, I think a great resource for folks is simply searching firm names in law360/law.com to see what folks are working on, as well as the Bloomberg litigation analytics tool to see where folks are noticing appearances/and in what JDXs and matters.

One thing that’s for sure is that many (most?) of the clients have preexisting relationships with the firm through deal work, as the above poster stated.

You’d definitely see more varied matters at Boies/Quinn, particularly because they routinely go on the other side of the V. But probably unlikely to “get” more varied work since their matters tend to run longer than the matters at WLRK I’d say. (E.g., chancery matters run at a blistering pace from filing of the complaint to dispositive motion practice/trial). I think WLRK has the lowest leverage among Boies/Quinn (great) and will work you harder than all three firms (bad), even tho Boies and Quinn are tough places to work in their own right.

Definitely would get less varied work at KH, which works in a few big industries (e.g., telco, sovereigns) or in a few discrete practice areas (e.g., antitrust). I imagine a good chunk of the firm is probably working on one or more regulatory matters for Facebook right now. So keep that in mind.

[Lawbrah2020]

Thanks for the responses so far. I want to stay East Coast. Someone mentioned that "WLRK's practice is pretty different than Boies Schiller's, etc." In what way? Do you mean the underlying subject matter (WLRK does a lot of white-collar crim law/securities lit, while Boies does more general commercial lit?) Or do you mean different in some other way?

I do know that SG is very trial-focused, but its practice also seems to have less areas of coverage than Kellogg.

I know this is a year late, but I'll answer this question for posterity. I am a YHS grad with perfect grades and a dual DC/2/9th and SDNY/EDNY/ ND Cal/ CD Cal clerk dating another lawyer with similar stats. Between the two of us, we've summered/ worked at many of the firms you listed.

WLRK does corporate governance litigation with a little bit of securities and white collar work mixed in. But mostly corporate governance.

Susman is the true pirates. They do mostly plaintiff side stuff but also some defense. Mostly big commercial stuff, but they'll do anything that seems profitable.

Bartlit Beck does mostly big corporate defense litigation. All stars.

Kellogg does a lot, and it depends a lot on what's going on at the firm and which partner you get. For example, right now they're defending facebook--so I imagine that's an all-hands-on-deck situation. Some partners do terrorism stuff, others do a mix of different types of plaintiff, and others do defense. They're famous for their antitrust work and their telecommunications work.

I have similar stats to you and am making the choice between going back to WLRK and going to a lit boutique. You mention these 3 lit boutiques - are there any that you think are on par with those three? I have an offer at one of the three mentioned but going there specifically doesn't appeal to me because of culture (also summered there). Thoughts on Selendy & Gay, Wilkinson Stekloff, Kaplan Hecker, Hueston Hennigan?

Sorry, I know I'm another year late on this reply. I can't speak directly or indirectly to Selendy or Wilkinson, but my (very weak) sense is that Wilkinson is extremely well respected; my first instinct was to say Selendy is just another firm-- but truthfully I probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

I can speak to Kaplan Hecker and Hueston Hennigan. Kaplan Hecker is a huge up-and-coming white-collar boutique. If I was going to stay in NY and wanted to do white-collar work, then I'd go there. They hired away one of Wachtell's biggest white-collar guy, and they are filled with high quality former government people and clerks. The only "negative" is that it doesn't seem clear to me that they pay much more than regular big law.

Hueston Hennigan, from what I understand, is very lucrative. They do all types of boutique work, including a lot of plaintiffs work. They pay a $105k clerkship bonus, but its kinda a wash because they don't give you an end-of-year bonus your first year. (Normal clerk bonus for two clerkships = 70k, normal end of year for third year = 35k). But several people have told me that your bonuses can be and often are over six figures the second year and on. So that's kinda sweet.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses so far. I want to stay East Coast. Someone mentioned that "WLRK's practice is pretty different than Boies Schiller's, etc." In what way? Do you mean the underlying subject matter (WLRK does a lot of white-collar crim law/securities lit, while Boies does more general commercial lit?) Or do you mean different in some other way?

I do know that SG is very trial-focused, but its practice also seems to have less areas of coverage than Kellogg.

I know this is a year late, but I'll answer this question for posterity. I am a YHS grad with perfect grades and a dual DC/2/9th and SDNY/EDNY/ ND Cal/ CD Cal clerk dating another lawyer with similar stats. Between the two of us, we've summered/ worked at many of the firms you listed.

WLRK does corporate governance litigation with a little bit of securities and white collar work mixed in. But mostly corporate governance.

Susman is the true pirates. They do mostly plaintiff side stuff but also some defense. Mostly big commercial stuff, but they'll do anything that seems profitable.

Bartlit Beck does mostly big corporate defense litigation. All stars.

Kellogg does a lot, and it depends a lot on what's going on at the firm and which partner you get. For example, right now they're defending facebook--so I imagine that's an all-hands-on-deck situation. Some partners do terrorism stuff, others do a mix of different types of plaintiff, and others do defense. They're famous for their antitrust work and their telecommunications work.

I have similar stats to you and am making the choice between going back to WLRK and going to a lit boutique. You mention these 3 lit boutiques - are there any that you think are on par with those three? I have an offer at one of the three mentioned but going there specifically doesn't appeal to me because of culture (also summered there). Thoughts on Selendy & Gay, Wilkinson Stekloff, Kaplan Hecker, Hueston Hennigan?

Similar stats/credentials. I have gotten strong warnings from people in a position to know to stay away from Kaplan Hecker due to its culture/internal politics, though they undoubtedly do top top work. Kaplan is very politically progressive so that's cool if that's appealing to you, though they did do some questionable things related to Andrew Cuomo. Its leverage is also relatively high for a boutique.

My understanding is that Kellogg's hours are Wachtell-level.

On the other hand I've heard great things about Holwell Shuster and Krieger Kim, which are also top NYC-based white collar boutiques. Wachtell itself also has an excellent white collar practice.

[Anonymous User]

Curious about what the read is on the more "traditional" white collar boutiques like Lankler and Morvillo. I don't see their names as much but always thought they were the go-to for white collar experience - is that changing?

[Anonymous User]

On this topic, what are people's thoughts on Keller Lehotsky? Will they remain a super small boutique, or will they expand to something closer to a Kellogg or Wilkinson? Thoughts on the quality of work? Pay?

[Anonymous User]

On this topic, what are people's thoughts on Keller Lehotsky? Will they remain a super small boutique, or will they expand to something closer to a Kellogg or Wilkinson? Thoughts on the quality of work? Pay?

It will always be a small boutique. The bread and butter of the firm is conservative litigation that large firms refuse to take on because they are worried about woke law school students protesting them. Quality of work will always be high, not sure about pay but I would doubt it would even be market, let alone above market. You don't work for a political firm to make money -- the same goes for the Elias Law Group, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah Keller Lehotsky's endgame if it's successful is being Consovoy McCarthy, but Texan, not Kellogg Hansen. To make big bucks in litigation you need to do complex/commercial and white collar, not political law and appeals.