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How much to spend and what to buy?

I think last year I did a niceish bottle of wine, card, and a $100 Amex gift card.

Should it increase by class year? I know some of the white shoe firms say $100 per class year, but that would mean that a senior is spending like $800+ on their secretary. I know that would be way overboard at my current office (satellite V50, but still cravath scale office). I'd be shocked if partners are even spending more than $400 on their secretaries, with the exception of 1-3 rainmakers.

You’re off to a good start. Little better wine and add $50 (or double) your gift card. That should bring on the holiday cheer! (I am assuming s/he is doing a very good job.)

Anonymous User wrote:You’re off to a good start. Little better wine and add $50 (or double) your gift card. That should bring on the holiday cheer! (I am assuming s/he is doing a very good job.)

lol wut?

$100/class year max. You can def do less.

I guess it depends on how much work your secretary does for you. Mine barely expenses my stuff.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:You’re off to a good start. Little better wine and add $50 (or double) your gift card. That should bring on the holiday cheer! (I am assuming s/he is doing a very good job.)

lol wut?

$100/class year max. You can def do less.

I guess it depends on how much work your secretary does for you. Mine barely expenses my stuff.

If $100/class year is the max and the OP did $100 last year presumably $150 this year is under the $100/class year max?

I've been at two big firms (albeit not V10 NYC firms), and neither has ever communicated anything about expectations for secretary gifts. Honestly, I have no idea what's appropriate or not - I never would have guessed a $100/class level standard if I hadn't seen it on TLS, and it seems like if that's actually what's expected, someone at the firm should communicate it (but law firms aren't great at this type of internal communication...). I usually do $200-$300 gift card for my shared (with like 5 people) assistant, but I don't know if I'm lowballing or not. I would hate to be the cheap one (it's not like mid-level associates on the cravath scale can't afford $100/class year), but I also don't want to end up giving a gift that's like, far beyond what most people do and borders on inappropriate (if everyone else at the firm is giving $200, and I go for $500, that's not great).

I gave a $75 gift certificate but I work in-house in a small town. She doesn't do all that much for me on a daily basis so I thought that was fair.

Anonymous User wrote:I've been at two big firms (albeit not V10 NYC firms), and neither has ever communicated anything about expectations for secretary gifts. Honestly, I have no idea what's appropriate or not - I never would have guessed a $100/class level standard if I hadn't seen it on TLS, and it seems like if that's actually what's expected, someone at the firm should communicate it (but law firms aren't great at this type of internal communication...). I usually do $200-$300 gift card for my shared (with like 5 people) assistant, but I don't know if I'm lowballing or not. I would hate to be the cheap one (it's not like mid-level associates on the cravath scale can't afford $100/class year), but I also don't want to end up giving a gift that's like, far beyond what most people do and borders on inappropriate (if everyone else at the firm is giving $200, and I go for $500, that's not great).

If your secretary is shared, why not talk to those they're shared with?

My NYC firm moved to secretarial pools and I was just peer-pressured to give them the ~recommended amount of $100/class year. Agree that it is ridiculous.

Anonymous User wrote:My NYC firm moved to secretarial pools and I was just peer-pressured to give them the ~recommended amount of $100/class year. Agree that it is ridiculous.

Same. Gave $200 even though I rarely have contact with the "pool" .... heard some people resisted the peer pressure and gave lesser amounts (i.e $50)...so kind of makes me feel like there was no benefit really since no one besides the "collector" will even know how much I contributed (the total amount collected by attorneys is going to to be divided evenly by the secretarial pool). Don't think I want to do $300 next year unless I have my own secretary.

Yugihoe wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:My NYC firm moved to secretarial pools and I was just peer-pressured to give them the ~recommended amount of $100/class year. Agree that it is ridiculous.

Same. Gave $200 even though I rarely have contact with the "pool" .... heard some people resisted the peer pressure and gave lesser amounts (i.e $50)...so kind of makes me feel like there was no benefit really since no one besides the "collector" will even know how much I contributed (the total amount collected by attorneys is going to to be divided evenly by the secretarial pool). Don't think I want to do $300 next year unless I have my own secretary.

TBH I didn't want to lose face with the collector ... guess a few extra hundred out of my pocket gets me that much at least.

Honestly $100 per year seems ridiculous. My secretary handles 4 people total. She would bring in about $1,000 in Christmas gifts from us.

Anonymous User wrote:Honestly $100 per year seems ridiculous. My secretary handles 4 people total. She would bring in about $1,000 in Christmas gifts from us.

I bet our secretaries think paying first year associates $190k seems ridiculous as well, and yet here we are. FWIW, I've been told by senior associates in my group that they tend to cap their gifts at $400.

bwh8813 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Honestly $100 per year seems ridiculous. My secretary handles 4 people total. She would bring in about $1,000 in Christmas gifts from us.

I bet our secretaries think paying first year associates $190k seems ridiculous as well, and yet here we are. FWIW, I've been told by senior associates in my group that they tend to cap their gifts at $400.

What

I had always heard $100/year, including from associates at my firm, until a law school friend at a different major (V25) firm told me his entire office - the firm's main office - does $20-30 per class year from associates to secretaries. Wonder how that came about.

I have a hard time complaining about dropping $200 to a secretary, even when they don't do a whole lot for me, if for no reason other than to save face and not be "that guy" when second-years are pulling down $232,500 all-in gross in 2018 with salary + summer and year-end bonuses. Just do it with a smile and then forget about it for 12 months.

I was also curious about the best practice for associates who have been around a while, so I'll have to see if the "capping at $400" thing, or something similar, is common at my shop as well.

You guys must come from incredibly wealthy families or y'all must be bourgeois to the core.

$100 is a fuckton of money. My biglaw takehome pay, after taxes, necessary expenses, and loan payments, is about $30,000. I'm not tipping someone who does virtually nothing for me $100.

If you're desperate to know, staff at my firm have recommended $50. Even that, to me, is too much.

Wild Card wrote:You guys must come from incredibly wealthy families or y'all must be bourgeois to the core.

$100 is a fuckton of money. My biglaw takehome pay, after taxes, necessary expenses, and loan payments, is about $30,000. I'm not tipping someone who does virtually nothing for me $100.

If you're desperate to know, staff at my firm have recommended $50. Even that, to me, is too much.

You mean that after you pay off your loans, taxes, rent, food, and everything else, you get $30,000 of additional income? That's (give or take a bit) half of your secretary's pre-tax salary. And $100 would be 0.33% of that chunk of disposable income you're making.

Honestly, they should require all 0Ls to work at least a year at the lowest rung of retail/service/anything-that-isn't-law before letting people like you loose on staff.

I'm a midlevel. I gave my assistant $500 this year. I recognize it's a bit much, but I get paid a lot and the firm doesn't pay assistants bonuses.

Wild Card wrote:You guys must come from incredibly wealthy families or y'all must be bourgeois to the core.

$100 is a fuckton of money. My biglaw takehome pay, after taxes, necessary expenses, and loan payments, is about $30,000. I'm not tipping someone who does virtually nothing for me $100.

If you're desperate to know, staff at my firm have recommended $50. Even that, to me, is too much.

wtf? are you supporting a family of 12? How does 180k turn to 30k?

estefanchanning wrote:

Wild Card wrote:You guys must come from incredibly wealthy families or y'all must be bourgeois to the core.

$100 is a fuckton of money. My biglaw takehome pay, after taxes, necessary expenses, and loan payments, is about $30,000. I'm not tipping someone who does virtually nothing for me $100.

If you're desperate to know, staff at my firm have recommended $50. Even that, to me, is too much.

wtf? are you supporting a family of 12? How does 180k turn to 30k?

That part actually makes sense. $190k after tax in NYC is closer to $120k. Loan payments can be quite high, even if you're not overpaying, but let's choose an even number and say $25k is going to loans, which is lowballing it if that poster owes closer to sticker. So now it's $95k. Cost of living in NYC is high, so with rent, food, insurance, transportation, etc., you're probably spending $60k. So having approximately $30k left over isn't an insane number, even if those expenditure numbers are high (because I didn't account for 401(k) contributions or anything else in that vein).

That doesn't mean that you can't afford to not be an asshole to your secretary. It just means that student loans are an even bigger bitch than someone who insists that it's "bourgeois" to get a nice present for someone that works for you.

cavalier1138 wrote:

estefanchanning wrote:

Wild Card wrote:You guys must come from incredibly wealthy families or y'all must be bourgeois to the core.

$100 is a fuckton of money. My biglaw takehome pay, after taxes, necessary expenses, and loan payments, is about $30,000. I'm not tipping someone who does virtually nothing for me $100.

If you're desperate to know, staff at my firm have recommended $50. Even that, to me, is too much.

wtf? are you supporting a family of 12? How does 180k turn to 30k?

That part actually makes sense. $190k after tax in NYC is closer to $120k. Loan payments can be quite high, even if you're not overpaying, but let's choose an even number and say $25k is going to loans, which is lowballing it if that poster owes closer to sticker. So now it's $95k. Cost of living in NYC is high, so with rent, food, insurance, transportation, etc., you're probably spending $60k. So having approximately $30k left over isn't an insane number, even if those expenditure numbers are high (because I didn't account for 401(k) contributions or anything else in that vein).

That doesn't mean that you can't afford to not be an asshole to your secretary. It just means that student loans are an even bigger bitch than someone who insists that it's "bourgeois" to get a nice present for someone that works for you.

I agree. Treat support staff well. It’s professional and it will also make your life better.

In my first two years of biglaw, I paid off approx ~125k in student loans, went on nice vacations, and generally lived a good life in a high COL city.

We make A LOT of money. Y’all just cheap.

Wild Card wrote:You guys must come from incredibly wealthy families or y'all must be bourgeois to the core.

$100 is a fuckton of money. My biglaw takehome pay, after taxes, necessary expenses, and loan payments, is about $30,000. I'm not tipping someone who does virtually nothing for me $100.

If you're desperate to know, staff at my firm have recommended $50. Even that, to me, is too much.

Contra the pile-on happening ITT, I don't think "merely" tipping one's secretary $50 constitutes being an "asshole."

First, Wild Card is objectively right in stating that not all associates are equally well-off. Sure, an associate who comes from money and had college and law school paid for by the Bank of Mom and Dad and possibly still has a trust fund on the side will have plenty of disposable income on a BigLaw salary. An associate who had to take out mid-six-figure loans for college and law school and needs to save for their own retirement and possibly even needs to help support other family members: That associate is not remotely in the same position. Now you could blame the second associate for not being born rich, but if you go down that path, why not also blame the secretary for not securing more lucrative employment? A first- or second-year associate could very well have lower net worth than their secretary. The associate might have negative net worth, while the secretary - esp. if they've been in the workforce for a long time - might have a substantial nest egg saved up over the decades.

Second, there are secretaries who go the extra mile and secretaries who don't. There are also lawyers who make heavy use of their secretaries and lawyers who don't. It's kind of ridiculous, IMO, to say that all associates have an obligation to tip their secretary multiple hundreds of dollars even if the secretary never went the extra mile and the associate didn't make more than de minimis use of the secretary.

Third, there's really no justification for a blanket "must tip secretaries" rule other than noblesse oblige, which is decidedly outdated and frankly demeaning to apply to support staff. Associates aren't nobility and secretaries aren't servants (let alone personal servants). We tip waitstaff and other service industry professionals because they make less than the usual minimum wage and because they provide personal services. Law firm secretaries fail to qualify on either count (let alone both): They make much more than the minimum wage, and - as TLS routinely reminds us - they aren't there to provide personal services to associates. I recall the huge hullabaloo a while back about associates asking their secretary to grab a cup of coffee for them. There was general outrage over how anyone could even imagine that to be an acceptable request.

Fourth, there's no good limiting principle to a "must tip secretaries" rule. Why not also require huge tips for other support staff, such as copy room personnel, the janitorial staff, the security guards, the mailroom clerks, the paralegals?

I personally give holiday tips to support staff who treat me well. On the flip side, I don't tip support staff who treat me like crap. Simple rule.

I mean, that’s all very rational and sensible, but how a job should work and how it does work aren’t the same thing.

Well, I guess I’m rich! Nobody told me. Wish I knew.

Also, characterizing it as a tip is egregious. It’s a Christmas gift/bonus. I bet many of you consider yourselves quite liberal, but when it comes to redistributing a tiny potion of your wealth to your secretaries who make a fraction of your income, it’s absurd!

Y’all just cheap.

So do senior associates really give $700 a year?