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A little background: I am a joint UK/US citizen and have an undergraduate law degree from the UK and am currently completing LLM studies in the UK. My previous law studies mean that I am eligible to apply for advanced standing of one-year to a couple of US JD programs. I am also already eligible to sit the NY State bar exam. It is my intention to sit the NY exam in July, commence JD studies the following fall and obtain my NY practicing license the following January.

My question relates to how a two-year JD might affect typical OCI scheduling. To begin with, I am not entirely sure whether one-year 'advanced standing' means that I would enter as a 1L and conclude studies as a 2L, or whether I skip 1L entirely and complete 2L and 3L. Perhaps that's an academic point, but what's of more concern to me is OCI scheduling. As a two-year JD I have no idea whether I would be compelled to partake in OCI as an incoming law student (ie before I've taken any courses at all), or whether the option would be there to complete my first year and then partake in OCI.

Interviewing after a year of law school/living in the US would be far preferable to me, however it means that I would be free to work immediately after the summer associate position - assuming I would have finished law school and have obtained my NY practicing license. This would be fine by me, but I'm not sure if that would be an issue for an employer? In other words, assuming an employer was interested in hiring me, do you think it would be relatively straightforward for them to accommodate my circumstances by letting me start work immediately after the summer associate position, or rather is the scheduling of incoming associates typically more inflexible than that?

Of course I will contact the law schools and firms about this a little nearer the time but I'd like to gather as much info as possible before I do so.

Any thoughts or insight on this would be most appreciated.

I go to one of the schools that offers a two-year JD for international students. The students at my school will go through OCI the summer before their first year (so technically, the summer before they even start law school). If you wait until you've completed a year, you might have to wait a year before you could start at a firm, because you'd be a summer associate right after you graduated.

Also I'm sure I'm missing something...if you can already sit for the NY bar, why do you want to do a two-year JD?

Thanks for your comment. That was precisely my concern - having to find something else to do for a year before beginning work. Ideally I would be able to finish a summer position after the second and final year of school and then transition into work immediately (or at least sooner than the following year). If firms recruit on a rolling basis I don't see why this wouldn't be possible in principle, but then again they might be inflexible on recruitment schedules. Perhaps it depends on the firm?

May I ask if you are at Northwestern? I was aware that they require candidates for their 2-year JD for international lawyers to partake in OCI before their first year but it would be helpful to know if other 2-year programs also require this.

As to your question, I'm looking to move back to the US from the UK to work and employment prospects would be rosier with a JD than without. Also I anticipate being eligible for quite a few JD curricular exemptions so I would hopefully be able to use the opportunity to conduct some research - my interests and targeted practice groups are fairly specific. Having said that though working immediately after bar is an option I'm also keeping open.

NAMLEX wrote: Ideally I would be able to finish a summer position after the second and final year of school and then transition into work immediately (or at least sooner than the following year). If firms recruit on a rolling basis I don't see why this wouldn't be possible in principle, but then again they might be inflexible on recruitment schedules. Perhaps it depends on the firm?

Same anon as above. It definitely depends on the firm - many firms hire two years out (so when they hire traditional 2Ls during OCI, they're hiring approximately two years in advance and they have factored in some attrition, people delaying start dates due to clerkships, etc). If you applied after your first year you would effectively be going through "3L OCI" which has much more limited options, because at that point you're being hired only one year out from your start date, so your chances would be limited to whether the firms have any specific hiring needs.

I am not at Northwestern. My school does not require OCI participation before the first year, but very strongly encourages it.

Anonymous User wrote:

NAMLEX wrote: Ideally I would be able to finish a summer position after the second and final year of school and then transition into work immediately (or at least sooner than the following year). If firms recruit on a rolling basis I don't see why this wouldn't be possible in principle, but then again they might be inflexible on recruitment schedules. Perhaps it depends on the firm?

Same anon as above. It definitely depends on the firm - many firms hire two years out (so when they hire traditional 2Ls during OCI, they're hiring approximately two years in advance and they have factored in some attrition, people delaying start dates due to clerkships, etc). If you applied after your first year you would effectively be going through "3L OCI" which has much more limited options, because at that point you're being hired only one year out from your start date, so your chances would be limited to whether the firms have any specific hiring needs.

I am not at Northwestern. My school does not require OCI participation before the first year, but very strongly encourages it.

Thanks again for your help. It strikes me that it could be a considerable disadvantage to interview before starting the JD. I would still be inclined to interview after one year of law school even if that meant having to find something else to do for the intervening year after graduating.

What I'm still unclear about is why, if I did interview after the first year, you suggest that my options would be much more limited. (I think this relates to why I was initially concerned about how my JD status would be classified over the two years: 1L+2L or 2L+3L.) I appreciate what you say about the 3L OCI in that it is also disadvantageous as there are far fewer employment openings scheduled one year in advance, but if I am willing to accept the prospect of having to fill an intervening year could I not interview after one year with all the regular 2L interviewees? In other words, while from my perspective I would effectively be a 3L I would apply, from the firms perspective, as a regular 2L?

It is a huge disadvantage to do OCI before getting your 1L grades. You will probably strike out and then have to bust your ass the rest of law school to get a position.

carsondalywashere wrote:It is a huge disadvantage to do OCI before getting your 1L grades. You will probably strike out and then have to bust your ass the rest of law school to get a position.

Not true - the two-year JD students at my school who did OCI prior to starting did just fine, including some V10 and V50 offers. They might not have 1L grades but they had legal experience in another country, as well as whatever grades they had from the institution where they got their foreign law degree. At the same time you need to be strategic, and apply in way that your foreign training will be beneficial to the firm. For example, OP might be a competitive candidate for a firm that does a lot of work in the UK.

The harder part of the process is visa sponsorship. Some firms are more willing than others to risk hiring an applicant that might not get a visa.

carsondalywashere wrote:It is a huge disadvantage to do OCI before getting your 1L grades. You will probably strike out and then have to bust your ass the rest of law school to get a position.

Yes, I agree that it would be a considerable disadvantage to do OCI before taking a single JD course.

Anonymous User wrote:

carsondalywashere wrote:It is a huge disadvantage to do OCI before getting your 1L grades. You will probably strike out and then have to bust your ass the rest of law school to get a position.

Not true - the two-year JD students at my school who did OCI prior to starting did just fine, including some V10 and V50 offers. They might not have 1L grades but they had legal experience in another country, as well as whatever grades they had from the institution where they got their foreign law degree. At the same time you need to be strategic, and apply in way that your foreign training will be beneficial to the firm. For example, OP might be a competitive candidate for a firm that does a lot of work in the UK.

The harder part of the process is visa sponsorship. Some firms are more willing than others to risk hiring an applicant that might not get a visa.

All the two-year JDs I know did not have this experience. Could be for other reasons, but it seems like that was a universal cause for concern during OCI.

Anonymous User wrote:

carsondalywashere wrote:It is a huge disadvantage to do OCI before getting your 1L grades. You will probably strike out and then have to bust your ass the rest of law school to get a position.

Not true - the two-year JD students at my school who did OCI prior to starting did just fine, including some V10 and V50 offers. They might not have 1L grades but they had legal experience in another country, as well as whatever grades they had from the institution where they got their foreign law degree. At the same time you need to be strategic, and apply in way that your foreign training will be beneficial to the firm. For example, OP might be a competitive candidate for a firm that does a lot of work in the UK.

The harder part of the process is visa sponsorship. Some firms are more willing than others to risk hiring an applicant that might not get a visa.

ancedata

Anonymous User wrote:

carsondalywashere wrote:It is a huge disadvantage to do OCI before getting your 1L grades. You will probably strike out and then have to bust your ass the rest of law school to get a position.

Not true - the two-year JD students at my school who did OCI prior to starting did just fine, including some V10 and V50 offers. They might not have 1L grades but they had legal experience in another country, as well as whatever grades they had from the institution where they got their foreign law degree. At the same time you need to be strategic, and apply in way that your foreign training will be beneficial to the firm. For example, OP might be a competitive candidate for a firm that does a lot of work in the UK.

The harder part of the process is visa sponsorship. Some firms are more willing than others to risk hiring an applicant that might not get a visa.

Thanks for that. My intuition is that a candidate would always be more competitive with a productive year of US law school under their belt than without, but it's certainly good to know that there are successful 1L OCI interviewees out there.

NAMLEX wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

carsondalywashere wrote:It is a huge disadvantage to do OCI before getting your 1L grades. You will probably strike out and then have to bust your ass the rest of law school to get a position.

Not true - the two-year JD students at my school who did OCI prior to starting did just fine, including some V10 and V50 offers. They might not have 1L grades but they had legal experience in another country, as well as whatever grades they had from the institution where they got their foreign law degree. At the same time you need to be strategic, and apply in way that your foreign training will be beneficial to the firm. For example, OP might be a competitive candidate for a firm that does a lot of work in the UK.

The harder part of the process is visa sponsorship. Some firms are more willing than others to risk hiring an applicant that might not get a visa.

Thanks for that. My intuition is that a candidate would always be more competitive with a productive year of US law school under their belt than without, but it's certainly good to know that there are successful 1L OCI interviewees out there.

The thing is that they aren't just "1L OCI interviewees" - yes, a traditional US-based 1L would not be successful during OCI (and would not be allowed to participate in OCI because of the Dec. 1 rule). At least at my institution, all students in the two-year JD program already have a law degree from a foreign institution, and often have 2-3 years of work experience as lawyers under their belt. For law firms that have substantial foreign practices, this is extremely valuable and firms will overlook the lack of grades, knowing that they're hiring someone with relevant and unique experience who will be eligible to practice in both the US and the relevant foreign country.

Anonymous User wrote:

NAMLEX wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

carsondalywashere wrote:It is a huge disadvantage to do OCI before getting your 1L grades. You will probably strike out and then have to bust your ass the rest of law school to get a position.

Not true - the two-year JD students at my school who did OCI prior to starting did just fine, including some V10 and V50 offers. They might not have 1L grades but they had legal experience in another country, as well as whatever grades they had from the institution where they got their foreign law degree. At the same time you need to be strategic, and apply in way that your foreign training will be beneficial to the firm. For example, OP might be a competitive candidate for a firm that does a lot of work in the UK.

The harder part of the process is visa sponsorship. Some firms are more willing than others to risk hiring an applicant that might not get a visa.

Thanks for that. My intuition is that a candidate would always be more competitive with a productive year of US law school under their belt than without, but it's certainly good to know that there are successful 1L OCI interviewees out there.

The thing is that they aren't just "1L OCI interviewees" - yes, a traditional US-based 1L would not be successful during OCI (and would not be allowed to participate in OCI because of the Dec. 1 rule). At least at my institution, all students in the two-year JD program already have a law degree from a foreign institution, and often have 2-3 years of work experience as lawyers under their belt. For law firms that have substantial foreign practices, this is extremely valuable and firms will overlook the lack of grades, knowing that they're hiring someone with relevant and unique experience who will be eligible to practice in both the US and the relevant foreign country.

Yes, I am sure that you are right that international candidates can have attributes that are attractive to employers, not least professional experience. However while I have foreign law degrees I am not a foreign practicing lawyer. For me, having one year under my belt before OCI isn't so much about the 1L grades but rather about the opportunity to chart my path during the first year before presenting myself to prospective employers - I'm thinking about things such as reaching out to members of targeted practice groups, initiating a research project relevant to ones intended practice, organizing a relevant summer internship etc etc.

Any other thoughts before this thread is consigned to the abyss? I'd be particularly grateful to hear from anyone who has experience from the recruitment side on how flexible firms are regarding start dates for incoming associates.

You should confirm with schools about when you can do OCI. My understanding from Northwestern is that students in the two year JD program you’d be entering is they students were ONLY allowed to do OCI before their “1L” year and are not allowed to do OCI after that.

I also don’t think my firm would let you work as a summer associate after you graduate. Never seen that.

Mullens wrote:You should confirm with schools about when you can do OCI. My understanding from Northwestern is that students in the two year JD program you’d be entering is they students were ONLY allowed to do OCI before their “1L” year and are not allowed to do OCI after that.

Thank you for that. I will confirm with the schools. I am not only looking at Northwestern and other designated '2-year JD programs for foreign applicants' but also to regular programs that permit applicants to petition for Advanced standing once admitted. Several schools that I am aware of do this, including Chicago, Duke, Penn and Yale. It's unclear though what the status of the candidate would be during the two years (I think at Duke, for example, you petition for the credits after you have completed the JD degree requirements, so I assume you would be a regular 1L and 2L before that.)

Is there any particular reason you think firms would be reluctant to admit a summer associate after they graduated - I understand that in reality circumstances dictate this virtually never happens but is there a specific reason why they would be against it?

NAMLEX wrote:

Mullens wrote:You should confirm with schools about when you can do OCI. My understanding from Northwestern is that students in the two year JD program you’d be entering is they students were ONLY allowed to do OCI before their “1L” year and are not allowed to do OCI after that.

Thank you for that. I will confirm with the schools. I am not only looking at Northwestern and other designated '2-year JD programs for foreign applicants' but also to regular programs that permit applicants to petition for Advanced standing once admitted. Several schools that I am aware of do this, including Chicago, Duke, Penn and Yale. It's unclear though what the status of the candidate would be during the two years (I think at Duke, for example, you petition for the credits after you have completed the JD degree requirements, so I assume you would be a regular 1L and 2L before that.)

Is there any particular reason you think firms would be reluctant to admit a summer associate after they graduated - I understand that in reality circumstances dictate this virtually never happens but is there a specific reason why they would be against it?

Not to be rude but you have no idea how OCI works. It’s essential to you to follow the path of interviewing when everyone else will be interviewing. You are in a very different position than traditional students because you already have done a law degree and presumably have done well. You have that on your resume already, which 1Ls don’t.

You are incorrect in assuming you are at a big disadvantage in interviewing before you have US grades - you have other academic credentials that traditional US students won’t have. The only way to disadvantage yourself is to be out of step of the traditional hiring sequence and process. Its vastly to your benefit to interview as part of OCI to be a summer associate after your first year.

I’m not sure why other people think you would be disadvantaged. I’ve worked in biglaw and done recruiting, you definitely won’t be the only student in this situation or the only student a law firm has interviewed in this situation. Firms will be able to evaluate you based on your resume and your interview at the time you interview. They’ve done it many times before.

I’m not sure why you want to take the bar early? I’m not sure that helps your employment prospects at a firm. I’m not familiar with anyone who has done this that I can recall offhand, though maybe they have, and I’ve forgotten. I’m not sure a firm will start you in the summer when everyone else is studying for the bar, I guess they would, I just don’t know. It probably depends on the firm. Remember they will have a class full of summers starting around the same time. No policy against starting earl that I’ve ever seen, if that helps.

Also I saw someone mentioned a visa but obviously you won’t need that as a US citizen.

Edit to add- regarding taking students as a summer after they’ve graduated, firms don’t do it. The summer program is designed to assess students still in school
and on a predictable path and cycle. Big law firms work in Lock step. I can’t emphasize enough how important it is to you to stay within the traditional parameters.
After gradiationyou will be applying for full time positions, not summer long interview positions. Firms just don’t do want to do that. The difference between a student possibly/probably getting an offer and a grad who needs a permanent job is not something you can overcome.

carsondalywashere wrote:It is a huge disadvantage to do OCI before getting your 1L grades. You will probably strike out and then have to bust your ass the rest of law school to get a position.

I completely disagree. I am curious as to your basis for making this assertion?

Npret wrote:

NAMLEX wrote:

Mullens wrote:You should confirm with schools about when you can do OCI. My understanding from Northwestern is that students in the two year JD program you’d be entering is they students were ONLY allowed to do OCI before their “1L” year and are not allowed to do OCI after that.

Thank you for that. I will confirm with the schools. I am not only looking at Northwestern and other designated '2-year JD programs for foreign applicants' but also to regular programs that permit applicants to petition for Advanced standing once admitted. Several schools that I am aware of do this, including Chicago, Duke, Penn and Yale. It's unclear though what the status of the candidate would be during the two years (I think at Duke, for example, you petition for the credits after you have completed the JD degree requirements, so I assume you would be a regular 1L and 2L before that.)

Is there any particular reason you think firms would be reluctant to admit a summer associate after they graduated - I understand that in reality circumstances dictate this virtually never happens but is there a specific reason why they would be against it?

Not to be rude but you have no idea how OCI works. It’s essential to you to follow the path of interviewing when everyone else will be interviewing. You are in a very different position than traditional students because you already have done a law degree and presumably have done well. You have that on your resume already, which 1Ls don’t.

You are incorrect in assuming you are at a big disadvantage in interviewing before you have US grades - you have other academic credentials that traditional US students won’t have. The only way to disadvantage yourself is to be out of step of the traditional hiring sequence and process. Its vastly to your benefit to interview as part of OCI to be a summer associate after your first year.

I’m not sure why other people think you would be disadvantaged. I’ve worked in biglaw and done recruiting, you definitely won’t be the only student in this situation or the only student a law firm has interviewed in this situation. Firms will be able to evaluate you based on your resume and your interview at the time you interview. They’ve done it many times before.

I’m not sure why you want to take the bar early? I’m not sure that helps your employment prospects at a firm. I’m not familiar with anyone who has done this that I can recall offhand, though maybe they have, and I’ve forgotten. I’m not sure a firm will start you in the summer when everyone else is studying for the bar, I guess they would, I just don’t know. It probably depends on the firm. Remember they will have a class full of summers starting around the same time. No policy against starting earl that I’ve ever seen, if that helps.

Also I saw someone mentioned a visa but obviously you won’t need that as a US citizen.

Edit to add- regarding taking students as a summer after they’ve graduated, firms don’t do it. The summer program is designed to assess students still in school
and on a predictable path and cycle. Big law firms work in Lock step. I can’t emphasize enough how important it is to you to stay within the traditional parameters.
After gradiationyou will be applying for full time positions, not summer long interview positions. Firms just don’t do want to do that. The difference between a student possibly/probably getting an offer and a grad who needs a permanent job is not something you can overcome.

Thanks for taking the time, it's very helpful.

Npret wrote:

NAMLEX wrote:

Mullens wrote:You should confirm with schools about when you can do OCI. My understanding from Northwestern is that students in the two year JD program you’d be entering is they students were ONLY allowed to do OCI before their “1L” year and are not allowed to do OCI after that.

Thank you for that. I will confirm with the schools. I am not only looking at Northwestern and other designated '2-year JD programs for foreign applicants' but also to regular programs that permit applicants to petition for Advanced standing once admitted. Several schools that I am aware of do this, including Chicago, Duke, Penn and Yale. It's unclear though what the status of the candidate would be during the two years (I think at Duke, for example, you petition for the credits after you have completed the JD degree requirements, so I assume you would be a regular 1L and 2L before that.)

Is there any particular reason you think firms would be reluctant to admit a summer associate after they graduated - I understand that in reality circumstances dictate this virtually never happens but is there a specific reason why they would be against it?

Not to be rude but you have no idea how OCI works. It’s essential to you to follow the path of interviewing when everyone else will be interviewing. You are in a very different position than traditional students because you already have done a law degree and presumably have done well. You have that on your resume already, which 1Ls don’t.

You are incorrect in assuming you are at a big disadvantage in interviewing before you have US grades - you have other academic credentials that traditional US students won’t have. The only way to disadvantage yourself is to be out of step of the traditional hiring sequence and process. Its vastly to your benefit to interview as part of OCI to be a summer associate after your first year.

I’m not sure why other people think you would be disadvantaged. I’ve worked in biglaw and done recruiting, you definitely won’t be the only student in this situation or the only student a law firm has interviewed in this situation. Firms will be able to evaluate you based on your resume and your interview at the time you interview. They’ve done it many times before.

I’m not sure why you want to take the bar early? I’m not sure that helps your employment prospects at a firm. I’m not familiar with anyone who has done this that I can recall offhand, though maybe they have, and I’ve forgotten. I’m not sure a firm will start you in the summer when everyone else is studying for the bar, I guess they would, I just don’t know. It probably depends on the firm. Remember they will have a class full of summers starting around the same time. No policy against starting earl that I’ve ever seen, if that helps.

Also I saw someone mentioned a visa but obviously you won’t need that as a US citizen.

Edit to add- regarding taking students as a summer after they’ve graduated, firms don’t do it. The summer program is designed to assess students still in school
and on a predictable path and cycle. Big law firms work in Lock step. I can’t emphasize enough how important it is to you to stay within the traditional parameters.
After gradiationyou will be applying for full time positions, not summer long interview positions. Firms just don’t do want to do that. The difference between a student possibly/probably getting an offer and a grad who needs a permanent job is not something you can overcome.

I just tried to PM you but wasn't able to.

While it is true that I have done a law degree in England it's also true that all JD students have also done undergraduate degrees and many have done masters degrees. In the UK, unlike the US, you typically study a single subject as an undergraduate. So while I have a 'law degree' I am not necessarily more academically qualified than other JD candidates. In fact I'm sure many american educated peers will have studied more than me already (British degrees are typically only 3 years). I also do not have extensive legal work experience as I understand some competitive foreign candidates do have.

I certainly don't want to stress the traditional parameters of the recruitment process - in fact this was one of my biggest concerns about the two-year schedule. However is OCI as a 2L really that much more of a stress to the system than OCI as a 1L? Just to clarify, what I wish to do is to be able to do one year of law school, then OCI in the summer along with all the other students that started their JDs the same time as me. The only difference in my case is that I could tell a prospective employer that the I will have my degree and license by the time the summer position is finished. I assume that the firm given that information could either decide to incorporate me into the incoming cohort or not. If I understood you correctly you state that they would be unlikely to offer a place for the following year if I wasn't still in law school, even if I had gone through the standard OCI and summer associate process?

Again, thanks for your thorough input, it has been helpful.

Npret wrote:

NAMLEX wrote:

Mullens wrote:You should confirm with schools about when you can do OCI. My understanding from Northwestern is that students in the two year JD program you’d be entering is they students were ONLY allowed to do OCI before their “1L” year and are not allowed to do OCI after that.

Thank you for that. I will confirm with the schools. I am not only looking at Northwestern and other designated '2-year JD programs for foreign applicants' but also to regular programs that permit applicants to petition for Advanced standing once admitted. Several schools that I am aware of do this, including Chicago, Duke, Penn and Yale. It's unclear though what the status of the candidate would be during the two years (I think at Duke, for example, you petition for the credits after you have completed the JD degree requirements, so I assume you would be a regular 1L and 2L before that.)

Is there any particular reason you think firms would be reluctant to admit a summer associate after they graduated - I understand that in reality circumstances dictate this virtually never happens but is there a specific reason why they would be against it?

Not to be rude but you have no idea how OCI works. It’s essential to you to follow the path of interviewing when everyone else will be interviewing. You are in a very different position than traditional students because you already have done a law degree and presumably have done well. You have that on your resume already, which 1Ls don’t.

You are incorrect in assuming you are at a big disadvantage in interviewing before you have US grades - you have other academic credentials that traditional US students won’t have. The only way to disadvantage yourself is to be out of step of the traditional hiring sequence and process. Its vastly to your benefit to interview as part of OCI to be a summer associate after your first year.

I’m not sure why other people think you would be disadvantaged. I’ve worked in biglaw and done recruiting, you definitely won’t be the only student in this situation or the only student a law firm has interviewed in this situation. Firms will be able to evaluate you based on your resume and your interview at the time you interview. They’ve done it many times before.

I’m not sure why you want to take the bar early? I’m not sure that helps your employment prospects at a firm. I’m not familiar with anyone who has done this that I can recall offhand, though maybe they have, and I’ve forgotten. I’m not sure a firm will start you in the summer when everyone else is studying for the bar, I guess they would, I just don’t know. It probably depends on the firm. Remember they will have a class full of summers starting around the same time. No policy against starting earl that I’ve ever seen, if that helps.

Also I saw someone mentioned a visa but obviously you won’t need that as a US citizen.

Edit to add- regarding taking students as a summer after they’ve graduated, firms don’t do it. The summer program is designed to assess students still in school
and on a predictable path and cycle. Big law firms work in Lock step. I can’t emphasize enough how important it is to you to stay within the traditional parameters.
After gradiationyou will be applying for full time positions, not summer long interview positions. Firms just don’t do want to do that. The difference between a student possibly/probably getting an offer and a grad who needs a permanent job is not something you can overcome.

When you state that firms don't take students as summers after they've graduated do you mean they don't interview/offer positions to those students or host those students as summers? Just to emphasize - I do not intend to apply for positions after graduating as I am aware this would be a mistake. I intend to interview for and secure an offer of a summer position while I still have a year of law school left.

NAMLEX wrote:

Npret wrote:

NAMLEX wrote:

Mullens wrote:You should confirm with schools about when you can do OCI. My understanding from Northwestern is that students in the two year JD program you’d be entering is they students were ONLY allowed to do OCI before their “1L” year and are not allowed to do OCI after that.

Thank you for that. I will confirm with the schools. I am not only looking at Northwestern and other designated '2-year JD programs for foreign applicants' but also to regular programs that permit applicants to petition for Advanced standing once admitted. Several schools that I am aware of do this, including Chicago, Duke, Penn and Yale. It's unclear though what the status of the candidate would be during the two years (I think at Duke, for example, you petition for the credits after you have completed the JD degree requirements, so I assume you would be a regular 1L and 2L before that.)

Is there any particular reason you think firms would be reluctant to admit a summer associate after they graduated - I understand that in reality circumstances dictate this virtually never happens but is there a specific reason why they would be against it?

Not to be rude but you have no idea how OCI works. It’s essential to you to follow the path of interviewing when everyone else will be interviewing. You are in a very different position than traditional students because you already have done a law degree and presumably have done well. You have that on your resume already, which 1Ls don’t.

You are incorrect in assuming you are at a big disadvantage in interviewing before you have US grades - you have other academic credentials that traditional US students won’t have. The only way to disadvantage yourself is to be out of step of the traditional hiring sequence and process. Its vastly to your benefit to interview as part of OCI to be a summer associate after your first year.

I’m not sure why other people think you would be disadvantaged. I’ve worked in biglaw and done recruiting, you definitely won’t be the only student in this situation or the only student a law firm has interviewed in this situation. Firms will be able to evaluate you based on your resume and your interview at the time you interview. They’ve done it many times before.

I’m not sure why you want to take the bar early? I’m not sure that helps your employment prospects at a firm. I’m not familiar with anyone who has done this that I can recall offhand, though maybe they have, and I’ve forgotten. I’m not sure a firm will start you in the summer when everyone else is studying for the bar, I guess they would, I just don’t know. It probably depends on the firm. Remember they will have a class full of summers starting around the same time. No policy against starting earl that I’ve ever seen, if that helps.

Also I saw someone mentioned a visa but obviously you won’t need that as a US citizen.

Edit to add- regarding taking students as a summer after they’ve graduated, firms don’t do it. The summer program is designed to assess students still in school
and on a predictable path and cycle. Big law firms work in Lock step. I can’t emphasize enough how important it is to you to stay within the traditional parameters.
After gradiationyou will be applying for full time positions, not summer long interview positions. Firms just don’t do want to do that. The difference between a student possibly/probably getting an offer and a grad who needs a permanent job is not something you can overcome.

When you state that firms don't take students as summers after they've graduated do you mean they don't interview/offer positions to those students or host those students as summers? Just to emphasize - I do not intend to apply for positions after graduating as I am aware this would be a mistake. I intend to interview for and secure an offer of a summer position while I still have a year of law school left.

If you wait to interview after your first year, you will be applying for permanent jobs, not summer jobs. You will have graduated before you start the summer, so you will be a grad, not a student. Firms don’t hire grads for summer jobs.

I feel you are not understanding the process. The summer associate job is between 2nd and 3rd years, but the actual hiring is primarily done in the fall before nd year starts. These 2L summer jobs are just for students who will be returning to finish their last year of school. Firms only hire current students who will be returning to school for these jobs.

Maybe you are getting confused by these positions being called “summer associates?” A more accurate for you description might be “between law school years associates.”

I’m not quoting the entire post again.

I understand what you want to do. I’m telling you thatis not the way the system works, has been designed to work, or has ever worked.

If your concern is getting work experience to be competitive for OCI, you could defer any acceptance for a year and get a job as a lawyer in the UK if possible. Your plan of having a year of school in the US before you go through OCI is not the way to get a job.

You said you have taken classes equivalent to law school classes. No US student is in that position.

Npret wrote:

NAMLEX wrote:

Npret wrote:

NAMLEX wrote:

Mullens wrote:You should confirm with schools about when you can do OCI. My understanding from Northwestern is that students in the two year JD program you’d be entering is they students were ONLY allowed to do OCI before their “1L” year and are not allowed to do OCI after that.

Thank you for that. I will confirm with the schools. I am not only looking at Northwestern and other designated '2-year JD programs for foreign applicants' but also to regular programs that permit applicants to petition for Advanced standing once admitted. Several schools that I am aware of do this, including Chicago, Duke, Penn and Yale. It's unclear though what the status of the candidate would be during the two years (I think at Duke, for example, you petition for the credits after you have completed the JD degree requirements, so I assume you would be a regular 1L and 2L before that.)

Is there any particular reason you think firms would be reluctant to admit a summer associate after they graduated - I understand that in reality circumstances dictate this virtually never happens but is there a specific reason why they would be against it?

Not to be rude but you have no idea how OCI works. It’s essential to you to follow the path of interviewing when everyone else will be interviewing. You are in a very different position than traditional students because you already have done a law degree and presumably have done well. You have that on your resume already, which 1Ls don’t.

You are incorrect in assuming you are at a big disadvantage in interviewing before you have US grades - you have other academic credentials that traditional US students won’t have. The only way to disadvantage yourself is to be out of step of the traditional hiring sequence and process. Its vastly to your benefit to interview as part of OCI to be a summer associate after your first year.

I’m not sure why other people think you would be disadvantaged. I’ve worked in biglaw and done recruiting, you definitely won’t be the only student in this situation or the only student a law firm has interviewed in this situation. Firms will be able to evaluate you based on your resume and your interview at the time you interview. They’ve done it many times before.

I’m not sure why you want to take the bar early? I’m not sure that helps your employment prospects at a firm. I’m not familiar with anyone who has done this that I can recall offhand, though maybe they have, and I’ve forgotten. I’m not sure a firm will start you in the summer when everyone else is studying for the bar, I guess they would, I just don’t know. It probably depends on the firm. Remember they will have a class full of summers starting around the same time. No policy against starting earl that I’ve ever seen, if that helps.

Also I saw someone mentioned a visa but obviously you won’t need that as a US citizen.

Edit to add- regarding taking students as a summer after they’ve graduated, firms don’t do it. The summer program is designed to assess students still in school
and on a predictable path and cycle. Big law firms work in Lock step. I can’t emphasize enough how important it is to you to stay within the traditional parameters.
After gradiationyou will be applying for full time positions, not summer long interview positions. Firms just don’t do want to do that. The difference between a student possibly/probably getting an offer and a grad who needs a permanent job is not something you can overcome.

When you state that firms don't take students as summers after they've graduated do you mean they don't interview/offer positions to those students or host those students as summers? Just to emphasize - I do not intend to apply for positions after graduating as I am aware this would be a mistake. I intend to interview for and secure an offer of a summer position while I still have a year of law school left.

If you wait to interview after your first year, you will be applying for permanent jobs, not summer jobs. You will have graduated before you start the summer, so you will be a grad, not a student. Firms don’t hire grads for summer jobs.

I feel you are not understanding the process. The summer associate job is between 2nd and 3rd years, but the actual hiring is primarily done in the fall before nd year starts. These 2L summer jobs are just for students who will be returning to finish their last year of school. Firms only hire current students who will be returning to school for these jobs.

Maybe you are getting confused by these positions being called “summer associates?” A more accurate for you description might be “between law school years associates.”

Thank you.

As pitifully backward as I seem to have come across to you I do in fact comprehend the fundamental nature of summer associate positions. As strenuous as it is to wrap my kitten brain around it, I understand that american law students study for three years and (here comes the complicated bit) become summer associates in their second summer, between their 2nd and 3rd years. I also understand that I am an anomaly to the system in the sense that I will prospectively pass bar before graduating and complete the JD in two years. The query at the root of my original post concerned whether I could be accommodated by the system if I did OCI after one year. You were alive to the root of the question and have been quite clear that in this respect the system is inflexible. That's very useful for me to know, so thanks again for taking the time to clarify.

If that's the case then perhaps I could negotiate doing an extra semester/quarter with the school after the second summer, so instead of doing a 4 semester/6 quarter JD I could do a 5 semester/7 quarter JD. At least that way I won't have graduated by the time "between law school years associates" season is upon me.