Is it possible for a transactional lawyer in biglaw to work from 9 a.m. to 7 p.m.? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Lit: Here, do things where your law school education is at least somewhat applicable. You can write persuasively! Do research. Review documents (as a 1st year, I've barely had to do any doc review, so IDK what this whole "lmao enjoy doc review" meme is). Also as a midlevel/senior you can take deps and argue motions if that's your cup of tea (at least, at my firm this is the case).

Corp: Law school? Why'd you go do that? Here, review this 400 page document. Make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors. Spend the next week changing "tax document" to "Tax Document," but don't find and replace because they're not ALL defined terms. Oh, you want to draft something new? Okay, take this old 50 page agreement and do some find-and-replace. Now make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors.

Yeah... corp fucking blows.

[JohnnieSockran]

Lit: Here, do things where your law school education is at least somewhat applicable. You can write persuasively! Do research. Review documents (as a 1st year, I've barely had to do any doc review, so IDK what this whole "lmao enjoy doc review" meme is). Also as a midlevel/senior you can take deps and argue motions if that's your cup of tea (at least, at my firm this is the case).

Corp: Law school? Why'd you go do that? Here, review this 400 page document. Make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors. Spend the next week changing "tax document" to "Tax Document," but don't find and replace because they're not ALL defined terms. Oh, you want to draft something new? Okay, take this old 50 page agreement and do some find-and-replace. Now make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors.

Yeah... corp fucking blows.

Litigator got offended, sorry. Also, what's the deal with anon use? Does this post give away your identity in some way?

Corporate folks are often the ones providing all of the work for the lit folks, and we get to spend a lot more time on phone calls than your post represents... and we get way more of the in-house and business roles.

[Anonymous User]

Meh there is some “law” in corporate. Setting up anti take over provisions require some case law knowledge. My friend who does transport finance is constantly referring to UCC article 9 drafting security agreements, and whatever law is applicable drafting and setting up trusts that are something required to hold title to particular assets.

[almondjoy]

Lit: Here, do things where your law school education is at least somewhat applicable. You can write persuasively! Do research. Review documents (as a 1st year, I've barely had to do any doc review, so IDK what this whole "lmao enjoy doc review" meme is). Also as a midlevel/senior you can take deps and argue motions if that's your cup of tea (at least, at my firm this is the case).

Corp: Law school? Why'd you go do that? Here, review this 400 page document. Make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors. Spend the next week changing "tax document" to "Tax Document," but don't find and replace because they're not ALL defined terms. Oh, you want to draft something new? Okay, take this old 50 page agreement and do some find-and-replace. Now make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors.

Yeah... corp fucking blows.

Yeah this is funny as a bit but your tone sort of suggests you’re being serious in which case that corp para is so dumb and obnoxious.

[Neff]

Lit: Here, do things where your law school education is at least somewhat applicable. You can write persuasively! Do research. Review documents (as a 1st year, I've barely had to do any doc review, so IDK what this whole "lmao enjoy doc review" meme is). Also as a midlevel/senior you can take deps and argue motions if that's your cup of tea (at least, at my firm this is the case).

Corp: Law school? Why'd you go do that? Here, review this 400 page document. Make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors. Spend the next week changing "tax document" to "Tax Document," but don't find and replace because they're not ALL defined terms. Oh, you want to draft something new? Okay, take this old 50 page agreement and do some find-and-replace. Now make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors.

Yeah... corp fucking blows.

Speaking as a 4th year corporate associate, much of corporate work in my first couple years was as described above, which I agree does suck. There were times when I was questioning the utility or purpose of what I was doing (basically glorified paralegal work). It wasn't until around my third year after I started assuming a mid-level role, that I started to see the value of what I was doing. Drafting long agreements, yes you use a precedent, but it's no longer just someone telling you to do find and replace.

Someone who went to law school to litigate will never find satisfaction in corporate work, but lots of people who go to law school actually find litigation obnoxious and are more interested in business/making money. Even as a relatively novice 4th year, I feel like right now I have a skill-set that would be highly desirable to any PE, VC or public company.

Also, exit options. Average 4th year securities/M&A guys at my firm are getting $250K+ in-house offers (one got a $500K offer including equity). That's bananas compared to exit ops for litigation (go to boutique with pay cut, go solo?). Not everyone is cut out for Susman Godfrey and writing Supreme Court briefs.

[gregfootball2001]

Lit: Here, do things where your law school education is at least somewhat applicable. You can write persuasively! Do research. Review documents (as a 1st year, I've barely had to do any doc review, so IDK what this whole "lmao enjoy doc review" meme is). Also as a midlevel/senior you can take deps and argue motions if that's your cup of tea (at least, at my firm this is the case).

Corp: Law school? Why'd you go do that? Here, review this 400 page document. Make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors. Spend the next week changing "tax document" to "Tax Document," but don't find and replace because they're not ALL defined terms. Oh, you want to draft something new? Okay, take this old 50 page agreement and do some find-and-replace. Now make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors.

Yeah... corp fucking blows.

Lit: Here, draft a response motion because opposing counsel filed a motion for sanctions against us. We sent pdfs and they wanted Word docs. Figure out some way to explain to the judge why he should care. Also, prepare responses to the 120 requests for admission we got in that state court case - they have some strange requirements so make sure you get the font and spacing right. Don't forget to return that call to opposing counsel regarding when we're going to send docs, they're not due for two weeks but he's calling every day. Mention that he didn't send most of the stuff we asked for, for the third time.

Corp: Here, the client's commercial team sent back comments on the contract, look through and send me a high-level issues list. The client is concerned about quality issues down the line, so call the client and figure out what performance tests and requirements they need added, and draft an attachment that works for them. Oh, and opposing counsel sent back comments on that other project. They want to talk over the LDs and the parent guarantee language, so set up a call and hash it out.

As someone that did both, I prefer corp.

[Anonymous User]

Lit: Here, do things where your law school education is at least somewhat applicable. You can write persuasively! Do research. Review documents (as a 1st year, I've barely had to do any doc review, so IDK what this whole "lmao enjoy doc review" meme is). Also as a midlevel/senior you can take deps and argue motions if that's your cup of tea (at least, at my firm this is the case).

Corp: Law school? Why'd you go do that? Here, review this 400 page document. Make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors. Spend the next week changing "tax document" to "Tax Document," but don't find and replace because they're not ALL defined terms. Oh, you want to draft something new? Okay, take this old 50 page agreement and do some find-and-replace. Now make sure the defined terms match and check for proofing/grammar errors.

Yeah... corp fucking blows.

Litigator got offended, sorry. Also, what's the deal with anon use? Does this post give away your identity in some way?

Corporate folks are often the ones providing all of the work for the lit folks, and we get to spend a lot more time on phone calls than your post represents... and we get way more of the in-house and business roles.

I’m anon because these things usually lead to revelation of outing info. I was trying to be hyperbolic wrt corporate work to be funny. I don’t have any Corp experience beyond a 1L SA at a V50 and my classmate’s description of their work. I’m at an above-NY-market lit boutique. Since that’s a small set of firms, it would be easy to ID me by looking at my post history.

Maybe lit in biglaw sucks but I much prefer what I’m doing to corporate work. I don’t know where this “corporate folk provide work for lit folk” comes from since there is no corporate at my firm. As a 1st year, I’ve done some doc review, and yeah I’ve briefed plenty of discovery dispute BS, but I don’t think my firm has any cases in state court so can’t relate to above poster’s local rules woes.

We also don’t litigate vs people who would file for sanctions if they get PDFs instead of .docx, so can’t relate to any of the above poster’s complaints except for generally annoying discovery disputes.

I’ve yet to do this but 2nd years start arguing at low stakes motion hearings which, to me, is way more exciting than phone calls with a client to talk about an amendment.

I also think winning 8/9 figure jury verdicts or getting 8/9 figure settlements is way more exciting than any deal work. I have yet to personally experience 10 figure verdicts or settlements, but the firm definitely has, so maybe eventually?

I don’t know much about exit options and I don’t have plans to exit soon. That said, if I wanted to do business stuff, I’d have gotten an mba instead.

[Anonymous User]

I think it would be more possible to pull this off in a middle market private equity practice. Simultaneous sign/close deals have to sign on a weekdays before the wire deadline and there really are not that many fire drills as these deals are fairly straightforward and more of a volume practice. It would also require a good partner who can manage a smooth process and lets you work ahead (so you probably need clients who are also fine with that/willing to pay for dead deals/doesn't purposely jam its lawyers to keep fees down).

I do middle-market PE and other "smaller" M&A, and not at some super-top NYC firm. This is so, so wrong. The signing / closing is one day out of a deal that lasts 3 weeks to 3 months, and you work on more than one deal at a time. There are plenty of days available to turn purchase agreements, diligence contracts, and fill out schedules until 2:30 AM in a PE auction process with multiple bidders and a client or opponent that is often a small company with no in-house lawyers and no M&A experience that needs a firm to handle everything for them (including stuff that bigger clients would have a banker, accountant, HR or environmental consulting firm, etc., to help with). And smaller deals aren't simpler -- if anything, they often have cockamamie structures with earn-outs and equity roll-overs being negotiated by business people at the target who don't have deal experience, plus indemnification in general is a big issue you don't have in public company M&A.

[Anonymous User]

A lot of this thread (like a lot of things on this forum) seem over exaggerated. Your work flow (outside of a few specialty areas, to an extent) will ebb and flow based on the deals you’re on and how busy your group is generally. That said, I work at a V10 firm and billed 3,000 hours last year. I worked a lot and there were a lot of late nights, but I pulled maybe a couple all nighters and still had plenty of time to hang out and play video games or w/e. The one thing you won’t have in this job is predictable 9-7 hours, but you won’t be pulling perpetual all nighters either, probably.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Oh good. Glad to see the Litigators have logged on to answer this question, which is definitely about the interest and quality of day to day legal tasks in litigation vs corporate.

Folks, let's not get this twisted. You know what OP is asking and it's a simple answer. OP it's possible to lots of things. Lots of great things. To do quality transactional work at a decent firm for a while working the hours you outlined would be a dream job and primarily the result of extreme luck. If working late nights regularly is a deal breaker look elsewhere. Seriously.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

A lot of this thread (like a lot of things on this forum) seem over exaggerated. Your work flow (outside of a few specialty areas, to an extent) will ebb and flow based on the deals you’re on and how busy your group is generally. That said, I work at a V10 firm and billed 3,000 hours last year. I worked a lot and there were a lot of late nights, but I pulled maybe a couple all nighters and still had plenty of time to hang out and play video games or w/e. The one thing you won’t have in this job is predictable 9-7 hours, but you won’t be pulling perpetual all nighters either, probably.

Dude. Anon. Come on. 3,000 hours last year and you "still had plenty of time to hang out and play video games or w/e"? Get out of here. What is going on in this thread. Mods pls.

[Anonymous User]

A lot of this thread (like a lot of things on this forum) seem over exaggerated. Your work flow (outside of a few specialty areas, to an extent) will ebb and flow based on the deals you’re on and how busy your group is generally. That said, I work at a V10 firm and billed 3,000 hours last year. I worked a lot and there were a lot of late nights, but I pulled maybe a couple all nighters and still had plenty of time to hang out and play video games or w/e. The one thing you won’t have in this job is predictable 9-7 hours, but you won’t be pulling perpetual all nighters either, probably.

Dude. Anon. Come on. 3,000 hours last year and you "still had plenty of time to hang out and play video games or w/e"? Get out of here. What is going on in this thread. Mods pls.

I work in a specific practice group that was crushed last year with constant work. For reference, average hours in our group as a whole were about 500 higher than corporate as a whole. I worked pretty consistent 60-70 hour weeks, but rarely 100+. Not really sure why this is particularly hard to believe, though this is TLS where corporate associates are pulling all nighters every week (yet corporate at my firm somehow averaged less than 1900 last year). My only point in bringing this up though, was to point out that your lifestyle is going to be dictated by the group you're in and the ebb and flow of the deals you're staffed on. Consistent 9-7 is a fantasy, but that doesn't mean your life will be terrible.

[WalnutSurprise]

A lot of this thread (like a lot of things on this forum) seem over exaggerated. Your work flow (outside of a few specialty areas, to an extent) will ebb and flow based on the deals you’re on and how busy your group is generally. That said, I work at a V10 firm and billed 3,000 hours last year. I worked a lot and there were a lot of late nights, but I pulled maybe a couple all nighters and still had plenty of time to hang out and play video games or w/e. The one thing you won’t have in this job is predictable 9-7 hours, but you won’t be pulling perpetual all nighters either, probably.

Dude. Anon. Come on. 3,000 hours last year and you "still had plenty of time to hang out and play video games or w/e"? Get out of here. What is going on in this thread. Mods pls.

I work in a specific practice group that was crushed last year with constant work. For reference, average hours in our group as a whole were about 500 higher than corporate as a whole. I worked pretty consistent 60-70 hour weeks, but rarely 100+. Not really sure why this is particularly hard to believe, though this is TLS where corporate associates are pulling all nighters every week (yet corporate at my firm somehow averaged less than 1900 last year). My only point in bringing this up though, was to point out that your lifestyle is going to be dictated by the group you're in and the ebb and flow of the deals you're staffed on. Consistent 9-7 is a fantasy, but that doesn't mean your life will be terrible.

At what hours of the day are you playing video games and hanging out? 60-70 is a lot of time spent working. You still have to eat, commute, and sleep. No one billing 3000 has plenty of time for anything let alone those three things.

[Anonymous User]

Not the anon above, but I did a 3000 year. What happened was it was multiple huge matters that were just consistently really busy. As a result I had 3 months around 300 hours, 4 months around 250 and the rest hovering around 200. I did not have a month much lower than 200 all year.

Work was all consuming during the 200 hour months during the week (meaning 9-8, run home and bill 2 hours at home before going to sleep). Weekends I then had the occasional day in the office billing 5-6 hours. But I usually got at least one day a week totally off (no going in, no logging in to work remotely) during the 200 hour months. With the 250 hour months it would be more days in the office on weekends. My schedule for the 300 hour months was that work was all consuming Including multiple 10-11 hour days on weekends.

I was “fortunate” in some sense in that I had really high billable efficency (+80%) on the matters so I did not spend much dead time sitting around the office. I also live close to work so that helped.

[Anonymous User]

A lot of this thread (like a lot of things on this forum) seem over exaggerated. Your work flow (outside of a few specialty areas, to an extent) will ebb and flow based on the deals you’re on and how busy your group is generally. That said, I work at a V10 firm and billed 3,000 hours last year. I worked a lot and there were a lot of late nights, but I pulled maybe a couple all nighters and still had plenty of time to hang out and play video games or w/e. The one thing you won’t have in this job is predictable 9-7 hours, but you won’t be pulling perpetual all nighters either, probably.

Dude. Anon. Come on. 3,000 hours last year and you "still had plenty of time to hang out and play video games or w/e"? Get out of here. What is going on in this thread. Mods pls.

I work in a specific practice group that was crushed last year with constant work. For reference, average hours in our group as a whole were about 500 higher than corporate as a whole. I worked pretty consistent 60-70 hour weeks, but rarely 100+. Not really sure why this is particularly hard to believe, though this is TLS where corporate associates are pulling all nighters every week (yet corporate at my firm somehow averaged less than 1900 last year). My only point in bringing this up though, was to point out that your lifestyle is going to be dictated by the group you're in and the ebb and flow of the deals you're staffed on. Consistent 9-7 is a fantasy, but that doesn't mean your life will be terrible.

Calling BS on this, unless a lot of overbilling and phantom billing was involved. 3,000 hours would be 250 billables per month on average. With holidays, vacation, slow weeks, admin, recruiting and other nonbillable but mandatory activities taking up a significant amount of time, there is no way an associate can bill 3,000 and have "plenty of time to hang out and play video games." Again, unless some really serious phantom hours got billed somehow.