Biglaw Associates - How do you keep doing this? Forum

[Anonymous User]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

Just curious—what year are you?

[Anonymous User]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

Are you meeting hours/project mgmt/bd performance requirements?

[Anonymous User]

I'm the associate above, seventh year, and yes, I am on track to hit my hours.

[Anonymous User]

I'm the associate above, seventh year, and yes, I am on track to hit my hours.

Sounds like you work in great group. Congrats

[Anonymous User]

I'm two months in.... shit.

[Anonymous User]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

If anyone in my group tried this strategy (Private Equity M&A) they’d probably get fired in two weeks. Our clients work until 2 am every night and expect the lawyers they pay to do the same.

[Anonymous User]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

I can't imagine a partner being very happy having a Senior Associate delegate to a Junior and the Junior e-mailing the partner a likely error filled assignment without review by the Senior Associate.

[QContinuum]

I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. ... I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. ... don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head

This is v. ballsy. To the point of being borderline professional suicide.

[Anonymous User]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

"Look at me...I'm the Partner now."

[Anonymous User]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

"Look at me...I'm the Partner now."

If it's working for him and buying him time, who cares? Doesn't sound like this person is trying to make partner...just making it work as long as it will work. If you'd otherwise quit, what harm is there to working in a way that works for you (assuming you retain professionalism and don't act like an asshole)?

[Anonymous User]

I'm two months in.... shit.

Not everyone hates it. I hate it and hating it is more the norm than the exception BUT there are those people who find the tradeoff (money vs. your life) worth it. Usually, they have nothing better to do with their time so feeling "important" keeps them going.

[Anonymous User]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

The topic of the thread I thought was doing well in biglaw (surviving in biglaw) with some semblance of life. Not living happily for a year or two in biglaw as a junior and getting fired. Not living happily during the last few months in biglaw before leaving.

If you live by this lifestyle in a biglaw firm in a major market, you are going to get fired quickly.

[Anonymous User]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

The topic of the thread I thought was doing well in biglaw (surviving in biglaw) with some semblance of life. Not living happily for a year or two in biglaw as a junior and getting fired. Not living happily during the last few months in biglaw before leaving.

If you live by this lifestyle in a biglaw firm in a major market, you are going to get fired quickly.

Not true at all in my experience (5th yr lit v20) that you're going to get fired quickly for doing these things. There are many people here who coast into 6th year (and some beyond that) doing all of these things, except they typically leave between 6-7 instead of 4:30/5:30. Some luck is involved, but also being a mediocre-to-bad associate is itself a shield. It's possible to survive and adopt slacker habits, delegating as much as possible, instructing juniors to interface directly with partners, doing only what you're told to do, doing it reasonably efficiently, producing passable but not great work, etc. Seen it numerous times; try hard myself to suppress my desire for approval and to follow in the footsteps of these giants. You'll be bad to work for and the partners will think you're a dud, but at my firm it's definitely possible that you have $400K in the bank before they tell you to start looking elsewhere.

[Anonymous User]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

The topic of the thread I thought was doing well in biglaw (surviving in biglaw) with some semblance of life. Not living happily for a year or two in biglaw as a junior and getting fired. Not living happily during the last few months in biglaw before leaving.

If you live by this lifestyle in a biglaw firm in a major market, you are going to get fired quickly.

Not true at all in my experience (5th yr lit v20) that you're going to get fired quickly for doing these things. There are many people here who coast into 6th year (and some beyond that) doing all of these things, except they typically leave between 6-7 instead of 4:30/5:30. Some luck is involved, but also being a mediocre-to-bad associate is itself a shield. It's possible to survive and adopt slacker habits, delegating as much as possible, instructing juniors to interface directly with partners, doing only what you're told to do, doing it reasonably efficiently, producing passable but not great work, etc. Seen it numerous times; try hard myself to suppress my desire for approval and to follow in the footsteps of these giants. You'll be bad to work for and the partners will think you're a dud, but at my firm it's definitely possible that you have $400K in the bank before they tell you to start looking elsewhere.

Generally agree, as a 4th year corp v30. If you are passable, I find that at our firm, where we have a shortage of mid-years, it will take a lot for them to let you go.

I think most of the poster's tips are on point for being more efficient/surviving. The delegation point is actually a valuable skill to learn, even if you aren't looking to bail. The most efficient senior associates I work with delegate tasks to juniors, review (which may take two rounds of review if it is a complicated doc), then ask the juniors to send directly to partners. I have learned that having all docs go through me makes my life a lot more difficult, and getting the juniors more directly involved helps them get integrated in the work flow, as more often than not partners will run simple changes through the junior directly. It also makes it a lot easier for the junior to cover for you, for example, if you need to be out of pocket on a weekend.

4:30/5:30 is really aggressive though if you are looking to stay. I would say 6ish would be more normal. I have lots of hours but also generally leave around 6, 6:30pm unless there is something pressing that needs to get out now (then I fire back up and work for several hours after my child goes to bed, which is another story). You do need to be responsive during evenings/weekends, but once you learn what is urgent or not, I just send a "Will do" response in advance and then get to it when more convenient to me.

[d3909615]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

This is a wonderful post, but what if your partners find someone willing to add $x more revenue or other benefit (time, whatever) for the same or lower salary? Will they forego that benefit to keep you? Do they like you that much?

Another problem is that your way of working upends the hyper-competitive culture the partners want. They want you to worry about your job, because it maximizes how hard you'll work for them. They might give you a few months of this, but if you keep behaving this way they might fire you to send a message to the other associates.

[Anonymous User]

4:30/5:30 is really aggressive though if you are looking to stay. I would say 6ish would be more normal. I have lots of hours but also generally leave around 6, 6:30pm unless there is something pressing that needs to get out now (then I fire back up and work for several hours after my child goes to bed, which is another story). You do need to be responsive during evenings/weekends, but once you learn what is urgent or not, I just send a "Will do" response in advance and then get to it when more convenient to me.

I can't wait until this profession lets go of the need for office hours. Firms could save a ton of money on overhead if they embraced telecommuting more openly. I can do absolutely everything required of me remotely without sacrificing efficiency or work quality.

[lawhopeful100]

4:30/5:30 is really aggressive though if you are looking to stay. I would say 6ish would be more normal. I have lots of hours but also generally leave around 6, 6:30pm unless there is something pressing that needs to get out now (then I fire back up and work for several hours after my child goes to bed, which is another story). You do need to be responsive during evenings/weekends, but once you learn what is urgent or not, I just send a "Will do" response in advance and then get to it when more convenient to me.

I can't wait until this profession lets go of the need for office hours. Firms could save a ton of money on overhead if they embraced telecommuting more openly. I can do absolutely everything required of me remotely without sacrificing efficiency or work quality.

Yea, it seems to be slowly heading that direction. I'm at a satellite office of a larger firm and I usually get in at 8-8:30 and leave at 5:30. I always log back on from my couch while I watch tv though. At least for my practice group, it seems like as long as you are responsive it doesn't matter whether you are actually in the office.

[Anonymous User]

This is a wonderful post, but what if your partners find someone willing to add $x more revenue or other benefit (time, whatever) for the same or lower salary? Will they forego that benefit to keep you? Do they like you that much?

Another problem is that your way of working upends the hyper-competitive culture the partners want. They want you to worry about your job, because it maximizes how hard you'll work for them. They might give you a few months of this, but if you keep behaving this way they might fire you to send a message to the other associates.

To your first point, I'm still on track to hit my hours target and am still profitable for the firm. It's the point in the year when I've more than covered salary/bonus/overhead. In terms of revenue, if I was gunning for partner I'd probably be generating 20-25% more revenue, but that wouldn't be more revenue coming in, I'd just be billing hours that either other senior associates are currently billing or doing work that I am delegating to juniors or midlevels which might end up being a wash because seniors are more efficient than juniors even at the higher billing rate. And the partners aren't going to replace me with a brand new lateral who they don't know just to temporarily boost revenue who they might then have to drum out in 2 years.

To your second point, I doubt I will get "fired" in the colloquial sense of being escorted out by security. I'm still profitable, still on active matters, professional and kind to people, and I don't do bad work. You get fired for blowing deadlines, being rude or unprofessional to clients (or co-counsel, judges, etc.), lying/stealing/fake billing, etc. or if there is a market crash. Obviously, even if you hate biglaw you should never do any of that. It's not fair to the clients who pay the bills and your rep is important. Eventually I'm sure I'll get the talk, but since I've already decided being a service partner is not for me I don't really sweat that anymore.

Again, if you are a junior starting out or a midlevel/senior gunning for partner you shouldn't do what I am doing, although you are going to need to learn to delegate/organize/prioritize at some point on your path to junior partner.

Not true at all in my experience (5th yr lit v20) that you're going to get fired quickly for doing these things. There are many people here who coast into 6th year (and some beyond that) doing all of these things, except they typically leave between 6-7 instead of 4:30/5:30. Some luck is involved, but also being a mediocre-to-bad associate is itself a shield. It's possible to survive and adopt slacker habits, delegating as much as possible, instructing juniors to interface directly with partners, doing only what you're told to do, doing it reasonably efficiently, producing passable but not great work, etc. Seen it numerous times; try hard myself to suppress my desire for approval and to follow in the footsteps of these giants. You'll be bad to work for and the partners will think you're a dud, but at my firm it's definitely possible that you have $400K in the bank before they tell you to start looking elsewhere.

Right, all of the above is common to seniors I have worked for who were in the process of gracefully exiting the firm. And there were plenty of senior associates I've seen gunning for partner who ended up leaving as well despite tearing their hair out for years and generally making life miserable for any associate who worked for them in what was ultimately a quixotic quest for the brass ring.

[barkschool]

I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. ... I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. ... don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head

This is v. ballsy. To the point of being borderline professional suicide.

I'm not sure the 7th year cares?

[RaceJudicata]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

I can't imagine a partner being very happy having a Senior Associate delegate to a Junior and the Junior e-mailing the partner a likely error filled assignment without review by the Senior Associate.

The post says that s/he reviews the junior’s work. Just doesn’t send it to the partner once’s hes done reviewing. It’s a smart move, reduces extra follow up, keeps junior on top of stuff, etc.

I’m sure the junior says something along the line so of... here is x doc. Sr. Associate has reviewed. Let us know if you have any flllow up or need to discuss.

-lowly jr

[Person1111]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

The topic of the thread I thought was doing well in biglaw (surviving in biglaw) with some semblance of life. Not living happily for a year or two in biglaw as a junior and getting fired. Not living happily during the last few months in biglaw before leaving.

If you live by this lifestyle in a biglaw firm in a major market, you are going to get fired quickly.

Not true at all in my experience (5th yr lit v20) that you're going to get fired quickly for doing these things. There are many people here who coast into 6th year (and some beyond that) doing all of these things, except they typically leave between 6-7 instead of 4:30/5:30. Some luck is involved, but also being a mediocre-to-bad associate is itself a shield. It's possible to survive and adopt slacker habits, delegating as much as possible, instructing juniors to interface directly with partners, doing only what you're told to do, doing it reasonably efficiently, producing passable but not great work, etc. Seen it numerous times; try hard myself to suppress my desire for approval and to follow in the footsteps of these giants. You'll be bad to work for and the partners will think you're a dud, but at my firm it's definitely possible that you have $400K in the bank before they tell you to start looking elsewhere.

Generally agree, as a 4th year corp v30. If you are passable, I find that at our firm, where we have a shortage of mid-years, it will take a lot for them to let you go.

I think most of the poster's tips are on point for being more efficient/surviving. The delegation point is actually a valuable skill to learn, even if you aren't looking to bail. The most efficient senior associates I work with delegate tasks to juniors, review (which may take two rounds of review if it is a complicated doc), then ask the juniors to send directly to partners. I have learned that having all docs go through me makes my life a lot more difficult, and getting the juniors more directly involved helps them get integrated in the work flow, as more often than not partners will run simple changes through the junior directly. It also makes it a lot easier for the junior to cover for you, for example, if you need to be out of pocket on a weekend.

4:30/5:30 is really aggressive though if you are looking to stay. I would say 6ish would be more normal. I have lots of hours but also generally leave around 6, 6:30pm unless there is something pressing that needs to get out now (then I fire back up and work for several hours after my child goes to bed, which is another story). You do need to be responsive during evenings/weekends, but once you learn what is urgent or not, I just send a "Will do" response in advance and then get to it when more convenient to me.

Biglaw 5th year here. This is spot on. Leaving at 4:30/5:30 every day and not answering emails after hours is not sustainable long-term, but leaving at 6:30 and being responsive until 10-11 (and on weekends) will get you pretty far at many firms as long as you are well-liked and do reasonably good work. I think it's easier as a litigator because--at least in my experience--you have a bit more control over your schedule and can block out your tasks to appropriate times (e.g., to the extent possible, I try to do project management/calls/meetings/spot stuff during the day, doc review/production-related work at night so I can work on the couch and turn my brain off, and brief-writing on weekends because I can work uninterrupted and focus on what I'm writing). I also agree that delegating is a great skill to develop, although you always have to review the junior associate's work and it often doesn't end up saving you that much time (especially if the junior is not good).

[Anonymous User]

OP: I went through a similar experience a few months ago after an absolutely brutal year and it spurred me to actively for a new job, but in the meantime I've tried introducing a few coping mechanisms into my work that have made my life a lot easier.

I think about ways to delegate as much work as possible to junior associate most efficiently. For example, rather than draft something by myself I give them an issues list to follow, topics to research, and let them draft it and give them a tight deadline. It's a lot easier to edit than to draft on your own. Of course there are things I absolutely have to do but I find that most assignments can be delegated to a lower cost service provider who will do the job just as well.

I try to "train" the partners to interact with junior associates if they need something simple done. I will delegate to a junior associate and instead of emailing the partner what they sent me I tell the junior to email the partner directly. That limits follow up emails that I need to pay attention to. Eventually the partners learn that they can email all of us instead of running everything through me and the juniors learn what they can and can't email the partners about.

I decline work for partners who I know have toxic working styles or run their matters inefficiently and seek out work from people who are efficient and respect my time. I do not take on too many matters with different partners and always make sure I have support from a junior.

I schedule check-ins and meetings for early in the morning so that whatever the partners want to do they can talk to me about early. I don't answer emails immediately or on weekends unless it's obvious from the email that it needs to be answered and I will decline night or weekend calls unless I am asked to be on them. Nothing is a bigger fucking waste of time than an hour long call or meeting between lawyers on a Saturday where you aren't actively participating, people show up 15 minutes late, etc.

I make it a rule to leave by 5:30 each day - 4:30 if nobody has called me. I answer emails and return calls once every one or two hours so as to limit distractions, and don't pick up calls from the people who just call you every time a thought pops in their head (most of the time they just follow with an email). I don't call people if I can email them and I make it a point to especially avoid talking to people who want to talk or gossip during the day.

Of course, it's a constant struggle and all these rules get violated at one time or another. And maybe it shows I don't have the chops to make partner, but I've decided that's fine. I just want a few months of valuable headspace while I am strategic and focused about my job search.

The topic of the thread I thought was doing well in biglaw (surviving in biglaw) with some semblance of life. Not living happily for a year or two in biglaw as a junior and getting fired. Not living happily during the last few months in biglaw before leaving.

If you live by this lifestyle in a biglaw firm in a major market, you are going to get fired quickly.

Not true at all in my experience (5th yr lit v20) that you're going to get fired quickly for doing these things. There are many people here who coast into 6th year (and some beyond that) doing all of these things, except they typically leave between 6-7 instead of 4:30/5:30. Some luck is involved, but also being a mediocre-to-bad associate is itself a shield. It's possible to survive and adopt slacker habits, delegating as much as possible, instructing juniors to interface directly with partners, doing only what you're told to do, doing it reasonably efficiently, producing passable but not great work, etc. Seen it numerous times; try hard myself to suppress my desire for approval and to follow in the footsteps of these giants. You'll be bad to work for and the partners will think you're a dud, but at my firm it's definitely possible that you have $400K in the bank before they tell you to start looking elsewhere.

Generally agree, as a 4th year corp v30. If you are passable, I find that at our firm, where we have a shortage of mid-years, it will take a lot for them to let you go.

I think most of the poster's tips are on point for being more efficient/surviving. The delegation point is actually a valuable skill to learn, even if you aren't looking to bail. The most efficient senior associates I work with delegate tasks to juniors, review (which may take two rounds of review if it is a complicated doc), then ask the juniors to send directly to partners. I have learned that having all docs go through me makes my life a lot more difficult, and getting the juniors more directly involved helps them get integrated in the work flow, as more often than not partners will run simple changes through the junior directly. It also makes it a lot easier for the junior to cover for you, for example, if you need to be out of pocket on a weekend.

4:30/5:30 is really aggressive though if you are looking to stay. I would say 6ish would be more normal. I have lots of hours but also generally leave around 6, 6:30pm unless there is something pressing that needs to get out now (then I fire back up and work for several hours after my child goes to bed, which is another story). You do need to be responsive during evenings/weekends, but once you learn what is urgent or not, I just send a "Will do" response in advance and then get to it when more convenient to me.

Biglaw 5th year here. This is spot on. Leaving at 4:30/5:30 every day and not answering emails after hours is not sustainable long-term, but leaving at 6:30 and being responsive until 10-11 (and on weekends) will get you pretty far at many firms as long as you are well-liked and do reasonably good work. I think it's easier as a litigator because--at least in my experience--you have a bit more control over your schedule and can block out your tasks to appropriate times (e.g., to the extent possible, I try to do project management/calls/meetings/spot stuff during the day, doc review/production-related work at night so I can work on the couch and turn my brain off, and brief-writing on weekends because I can work uninterrupted and focus on what I'm writing). I also agree that delegating is a great skill to develop, although you always have to review the junior associate's work and it often doesn't end up saving you that much time (especially if the junior is not good).

At my v50 leaving at 6:30 and being responsive till 10-11 doesn’t require being well-liked as that’s not doing the bare minimum. At my firm, if you’re doing those things then you’d probably have to majorly screw up to be asked to leave.

[Anonymous User]

A good rule of thumb for me is figure out the partners face time schedule and try to mirror it as much as possible. Partners are usually gone by 6:30 then you’re usually safe to as well. Before 6 is aggressive as many consider “ordinary business hours” to go until 6. Of course if you’re like me and working for clients both in New York and California who like to call randomly you’ll find yourself doing a lot of 8-8 in the ordinary course even when not so crazy slammed.

[lawhopeful100]

A good rule of thumb for me is figure out the partners face time schedule and try to mirror it as much as possible. Partners are usually gone by 6:30 then you’re usually safe to as well. Before 6 is aggressive as many consider “ordinary business hours” to go until 6. Of course if you’re like me and working for clients both in New York and California who like to call randomly you’ll find yourself doing a lot of 8-8 in the ordinary course even when not so crazy slammed.

There are pros and cons to this, but I have it set so that any call to my work phone also calls my cell, and then I have all the associates and partners I work for saved in my cell phone contacts list. Since most of the people I work for are located in other offices, I can always be reachable without having to physically be in my office. If you are someone who doesn't like to stay late at the office, I recommend this approach.

[Anonymous User]

OP Here - Interesting bit of comments here. Definitely agree with many of the people saying to leave early and push work down. Unfortunately, my group is pretty small and I'm one of a handful of midlevels/seniors and you can't really ghost when work is just piled on you like it is for me right now. I actually don't think I've had a relaxing day off in about 1.5 months at this point.

I'm pretty close to just paying off the rest of my debt and quitting. Or just keeping my savings above $100K, refinancing my debt to pay less and just figuring it out from there. The ability to have time off to take care of things around my house, start cooking again, getting in better shape and getting sleep seems like its worth it. Wish I never went to law school, and especially wish I never took on the debt amount that I did but I was a desperate 21 year old trying to figure out how to navigate the crisis. I knew biglaw would be bad, but honestly, after a few years of this I feel like I've really neglected my mental and physical health, on top of the fact that I have let all my other skill sets fall away. I used to be super personable and confident, a good manager, had quantitative skills that were good enough to land a finance job. Now I just sort of feel like a shell of what I used to be. Like I am a more jaded, cynical person and I definitely have lost a ton of my confidence. I used to love playing sports and its been over a year since I've done anything remotely like that. I know I'll miss the money a lot, but the thought of doing this another year just makes me really sad.

I can see other people that seem to at least get some enjoyment out of the work but I've never had that experience, its been more or less me just trying to get by to the next paycheck for a few years now. I have about $75,000 in student loans and about $125,000 in savings (not including retirement) so just trying to figure out what the best move is at the moment.