Latham v. Cravath Forum

[Anonymous User]

Wow. Latham seems to have a vigorous marketing/recruiting team. Cringy tbh.

Was thinking the same thing.

Congrats to the future Latham summers who anonymously claim to have chosen Latham over superior firms. You will be surrounded by summers who would have killed for offers at the aforementioned firms and would switch at the drop of a hat if given the choice.

FWIW, I work at one of the firms mentioned above, and if I ever suggested to other associates at my firm that Latham was a peer, I'd be laughed out of the room.

Wow. You and your fellow associates appear to be total pricks. You should be more specific about what random NY sweatshop you work at so folks know where to avoid going next summer.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

I will never stop evangelizing that both PE and international work is worse than other flavors of corporate work on the whole. That's the real problem I have with this thread. Wanting to do PE and LATAM deals seems like a bad 2L move in the first place, just leaving Cravath aside.

There is absolutely no pluses to international work in particular and no one will ever convince me otherwise. You don't travel. You just get super complicated deals, translation issues, multiple counsel's input, and emails at all hours of the day.

[BeeTeeZ]

Wow. Latham seems to have a vigorous marketing/recruiting team. Cringy tbh.

Was thinking the same thing.

Congrats to the future Latham summers who anonymously claim to have chosen Latham over superior firms. You will be surrounded by summers who would have killed for offers at the aforementioned firms and would switch at the drop of a hat if given the choice.

FWIW, I work at one of the firms mentioned above, and if I ever suggested to other associates at my firm that Latham was a peer, I'd be laughed out of the room.

Just to clarify, you're talking about Latham, the fifth most prestigious law firm in the world. The same Latham that surpassed $3 billion in revenue last year--a feat no other law firm has achieved. That Latham?

[Anonymous User]

Wow. Latham seems to have a vigorous marketing/recruiting team. Cringy tbh.

Was thinking the same thing.

Congrats to the future Latham summers who anonymously claim to have chosen Latham over superior firms. You will be surrounded by summers who would have killed for offers at the aforementioned firms and would switch at the drop of a hat if given the choice.

FWIW, I work at one of the firms mentioned above, and if I ever suggested to other associates at my firm that Latham was a peer, I'd be laughed out of the room.

Just to clarify, you're talking about Latham, the fifth most prestigious law firm in the world. The same Latham that surpassed $3 billion in revenue last year--a feat no other law firm has achieved. That Latham?

To clarify, I was talking about Latham & Watkins, the 12th most prestigious law firm in NYC. Though I wasn't aware that revenues were analogs for prestige; I guess we can expect droves of YLS students to start flocking to Baker McKenzie and DLA Piper.

[Anonymous User]

Just to clarify, you're talking about Latham, the fifth most prestigious law firm in the world. The same Latham that surpassed $3 billion in revenue last year--a feat no other law firm has achieved. That Latham?

K&E did it with ~200 fewer attorneys and better RPL, PPP, and PPL--albeit a year later.

https://www.law.com/law-firm-profile/?i ... land-Ellis
https://www.law.com/law-firm-profile?id ... atkins-LLP

Latham is very prestigious--probably more prestigious than 5th since Acritas Brand Index, which surveys international crowds and is probably a better reflection of raw prestige than even Vault has them at 3rd.

It still doesn't make it a better firm. It doesn't make it worse either. It's just sort of largely irrelevant for OP's decision.

Oh, yeah, this too, which is totally relevant.

https://abovethelaw.com/2009/02/nationw ... -250-staff

[BeeTeeZ]

Wow. Latham seems to have a vigorous marketing/recruiting team. Cringy tbh.

Was thinking the same thing.

Congrats to the future Latham summers who anonymously claim to have chosen Latham over superior firms. You will be surrounded by summers who would have killed for offers at the aforementioned firms and would switch at the drop of a hat if given the choice.

FWIW, I work at one of the firms mentioned above, and if I ever suggested to other associates at my firm that Latham was a peer, I'd be laughed out of the room.

Just to clarify, you're talking about Latham, the fifth most prestigious law firm in the world. The same Latham that surpassed $3 billion in revenue last year--a feat no other law firm has achieved. That Latham?

To clarify, I was talking about Latham & Watkins, the 12th most prestigious law firm in NYC. Though I wasn't aware that revenues were analogs for prestige; I guess we can expect droves of YLS students to start flocking to Baker McKenzie and DLA Piper.

Vault ranks Latham number 5 in the world. Looking more carefully I see the focus of this thread is NYC, so it makes sense to cite the NYC rankings instead. Point taken.

I mention revenue because you (or some other brave anon) referred to other firms as "superior" to Latham. When I think "superior" I think success, and when I think success I think revenue. Hence my reference to Latham's revenue last year. I didn't presume that you measure superiority solely by prestige.

[Anonymous User]

Wow. Latham seems to have a vigorous marketing/recruiting team. Cringy tbh.

Was thinking the same thing.

Congrats to the future Latham summers who anonymously claim to have chosen Latham over superior firms. You will be surrounded by summers who would have killed for offers at the aforementioned firms and would switch at the drop of a hat if given the choice.

FWIW, I work at one of the firms mentioned above, and if I ever suggested to other associates at my firm that Latham was a peer, I'd be laughed out of the room.

OP here: Just knowing that I won't have to work with people like you is enough confirmation that I made the right choice. Enjoy living in your little bubble of the legal sphere even though nobody outside of this bubble gives a damn about who you work for or even knows the firm. I can assure you that nobody outside of the legal world knows your firm, let alone cares about the "preftige" of your firm. I do hope that you don't work at STB at least though because partners there and at Latham regularly named each other as peers and one STB partner told me that I should pick the best fit amongst the two.

For those of you that still think this is flame or marketing, I'm anonymous because many people at my small school knew I was making this exact decision and even asked me if I made the thread, which I admitted to. If there was some way to verify these offers I would just to show some of you that people make these kinds of decisions more often than some of you realize. Good luck burning out wherever you are and holding on to your valuable prestige. I can honestly say that I'm excited to be joining Latham, and I can't say that I would have felt the same going to any other firm.

[Anonymous User]

Wow. Latham seems to have a vigorous marketing/recruiting team. Cringy tbh.

Was thinking the same thing.

Congrats to the future Latham summers who anonymously claim to have chosen Latham over superior firms. You will be surrounded by summers who would have killed for offers at the aforementioned firms and would switch at the drop of a hat if given the choice.

FWIW, I work at one of the firms mentioned above, and if I ever suggested to other associates at my firm that Latham was a peer, I'd be laughed out of the room.

Just to clarify, you're talking about Latham, the fifth most prestigious law firm in the world. The same Latham that surpassed $3 billion in revenue last year--a feat no other law firm has achieved. That Latham?

Hahaha lol. If I were an associate at Latham, I wouldn't want this sort of marketing.

[Anonymous User]

Reminder for all 1Ls and 2Ls:

The people you met at recruiting events, interviews and summer associate period are not indicative of the firm's culture. Associates and partners obviously are in a better mood when they just drink with you and chat with you. They took their time to sell their firm to you. The fire drills typical of practice groups like M&A show their true characters. At my firm, I can tell you, through all the fire drills, I could see that there are few people difficult to work with and few great to work with. All of that has more to do with your practice group choice and if you want PE M&A, I can confirm that you will definitely find difficult people regardless of which firm you go to.

Choosing one firm over another largely because of culture or fit is naive unless the firms really are peers.

Latham is clearly not a peer to firms like Cravath, Skadden or Simpson for M&A.

[Anonymous User]

Wow. Latham seems to have a vigorous marketing/recruiting team. Cringy tbh.

Was thinking the same thing.

Congrats to the future Latham summers who anonymously claim to have chosen Latham over superior firms. You will be surrounded by summers who would have killed for offers at the aforementioned firms and would switch at the drop of a hat if given the choice.

FWIW, I work at one of the firms mentioned above, and if I ever suggested to other associates at my firm that Latham was a peer, I'd be laughed out of the room.

Just to clarify, you're talking about Latham, the fifth most prestigious law firm in the world. The same Latham that surpassed $3 billion in revenue last year--a feat no other law firm has achieved. That Latham?

To clarify, I was talking about Latham & Watkins, the 12th most prestigious law firm in NYC. Though I wasn't aware that revenues were analogs for prestige; I guess we can expect droves of YLS students to start flocking to Baker McKenzie and DLA Piper.

Vault ranks Latham number 5 in the world. Looking more carefully I see the focus of this thread is NYC, so it makes sense to cite the NYC rankings instead. Point taken.

I mention revenue because you (or some other brave anon) referred to other firms as "superior" to Latham. When I think "superior" I think success, and when I think success I think revenue. Hence my reference to Latham's revenue last year. I didn't presume that you measure superiority solely by prestige.

Vault doesn't mean anything. What matters is where your firm stands in your market and your practice area (if you know what you want to do). For compensation purposes, PPP is the better metric to look at.

[QContinuum]

Latham is very prestigious--probably more prestigious than 5th since Acritas Brand Index, which surveys international crowds and is probably a better reflection of raw prestige than even Vault has them at 3rd.

No comment on Latham's prestige level but I'd strongly discourage any law student from relying on Acritas to gauge prestige. Cravath, DPW, GDC, STB are outside the top 20. Meanwhile, Baker McKenzie sits at #5, DLA Piper at #6, Norton Rose at #12, and even Ogletree squeaks in at #19. WLRK has a reasonable spot at #10 but still gets beat out by Morgan Lewis and Hogan.

Don't use Acritas.

[v5junior]

I will never stop evangelizing that both PE and international work is worse than other flavors of corporate work on the whole. That's the real problem I have with this thread. Wanting to do PE and LATAM deals seems like a bad 2L move in the first place, just leaving Cravath aside.

There is absolutely no pluses to international work in particular and no one will ever convince me otherwise. You don't travel. You just get super complicated deals, translation issues, multiple counsel's input, and emails at all hours of the day.

Wow, so much Cravath kool aid--this whole post is real dumb. "No pluses"?
- Super complicated deals - this is how you learn. Or do you think you get a better understanding of a merger agreement by copying and pasting the same cookie cutter public precedent that you have no flexibility to deviate from whatsoever because of hyper sensitive fiduciary obligations?
- Translation issues/multiple counsel's input - go look at a few in house job postings for M&A positions. overwhelmingly they will want people who have worked on international deals and have experience managing local counsel.
- Emails at all hours of the day - care to explain how this is relevant for LATAM transactions? have you looked at a map recently?

LATAM and PE work are both super valuable experience. If you want to be partner, LATAM/PE deals are a huge segment of biglaw work. If you want to go in-house, LATAM/PE deals will both give you very transferable experience.

Or are you talking about lifestyle? Bc if your argument for choosing Cravath over Latham is about lifestyle rather than substance, lol.

The Cravath propaganda machine is really out of control...so much hate on PE/LATAM just because Cravath sucks at both of them

[Anonymous User]

Latham is not a peer of Cravath, DPW, S&C, Cleary or Skadden in New York, full stop. I am shocked by how many poor resumes are at L&W.

There are virtually no YLS grads at Latham. Latham is lucky to even have one YLS person in its summer class. DPW NYC alone will have 7-10 YLS summers in any given year.

There are few HLS grads at Latham.

There are few CLS grads at Latham.

There are few NYU grads at Latham.

There are lots of UVA, Duke, Cornell, Berkeley, GULC and UCLA people at Latham. These schools are considered categorically unprestigious at elite Manhattan law firms. People who go them are ashamed of their school when they see how much prestige is concentrated at a firm like Cleary Gottlieb. People who scored 173+ on the LSAT do not even exist at such law schools, while they are a material portion of the class at HYSCCN.

All of the elite Manhattan firms want to hire the best of the best, and are actually able to get HYSCCN graduates (i.e., scored in the top 1-2% on the LSAT) to accept their offers. HYSCCN graduates do not go to Latham except maybe when they lateral to it after spending time training at an aforementioned elite Manhattan firm. Only people who couldn't get offers from the most elite Manhattan law firms go to Latham in New York. Latham is half a step below Paul, Weiss and Debevoise in the New York market.

If Latham wants to become an elite Manhattan law firm, it has to hire the best of the best. Based on all available evidence, it cannot attract HYSCCN graduates who ranked highly on the 1L curve. To get prestige, you have to hire prestige. Latham cannot hire prestige.

https://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ra ... -pedigree/

And also, their New York office is hideous AF.

[Anonymous User]

Latham is not a peer of Cravath, DPW, S&C, Cleary or Skadden in New York, full stop. I am shocked by how many poor resumes are at L&W.

There are virtually no YLS grads at Latham. Latham is lucky to even have one YLS person in its summer class. DPW NYC alone will have 7-10 YLS summers in any given year.

There are few HLS grads at Latham.

There are few CLS grads at Latham.

There are few NYU grads at Latham.

There are lots of UVA, Duke, Cornell, Berkeley, GULC and UCLA people at Latham. These schools are considered categorically unprestigious at elite Manhattan law firms. People who go them are ashamed of their school when they see how much prestige is concentrated at a firm like Cleary Gottlieb. People who scored 173+ on the LSAT do not even exist at such law schools, while they are a material portion of the class at HYSCCN.

All of the elite Manhattan firms want to hire the best of the best, and are actually able to get HYSCCN graduates (i.e., scored in the top 1-2% on the LSAT) to accept their offers. HYSCCN graduates do not go to Latham except maybe when they lateral to it after spending time training at an aforementioned elite Manhattan firm. Only people who couldn't get offers from the most elite Manhattan law firms go to Latham in New York. Latham is half a step below Paul, Weiss and Debevoise in the New York market.

If Latham wants to become an elite Manhattan law firm, it has to hire the best of the best. Based on all available evidence, it cannot attract HYSCCN graduates who ranked highly on the 1L curve. To get prestige, you have to hire prestige. Latham cannot hire prestige.

https://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ra ... -pedigree/

And also, their New York office is hideous AF.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a lot of Cornell grads are at the elite firms. Cornell is a relatively tiny law school, so there won’t be as many as NYU/Columbia.

[Anonymous User]

Latham is not a peer of Cravath, DPW, S&C, Cleary or Skadden in New York, full stop. I am shocked by how many poor resumes are at L&W.

There are virtually no YLS grads at Latham. Latham is lucky to even have one YLS person in its summer class. DPW NYC alone will have 7-10 YLS summers in any given year.

There are few HLS grads at Latham.

There are few CLS grads at Latham.

There are few NYU grads at Latham.

There are lots of UVA, Duke, Cornell, Berkeley, GULC and UCLA people at Latham. These schools are considered categorically unprestigious at elite Manhattan law firms. People who go them are ashamed of their school when they see how much prestige is concentrated at a firm like Cleary Gottlieb. People who scored 173+ on the LSAT do not even exist at such law schools, while they are a material portion of the class at HYSCCN.

All of the elite Manhattan firms want to hire the best of the best, and are actually able to get HYSCCN graduates (i.e., scored in the top 1-2% on the LSAT) to accept their offers. HYSCCN graduates do not go to Latham except maybe when they lateral to it after spending time training at an aforementioned elite Manhattan firm. Only people who couldn't get offers from the most elite Manhattan law firms go to Latham in New York. Latham is half a step below Paul, Weiss and Debevoise in the New York market.

If Latham wants to become an elite Manhattan law firm, it has to hire the best of the best. Based on all available evidence, it cannot attract HYSCCN graduates who ranked highly on the 1L curve. To get prestige, you have to hire prestige. Latham cannot hire prestige.

https://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ra ... -pedigree/

And also, their New York office is hideous AF.

LOL the LSAT never dies!

[Elston Gunn]

Latham is not a peer of Cravath, DPW, S&C, Cleary or Skadden in New York, full stop. I am shocked by how many poor resumes are at L&W.

There are virtually no YLS grads at Latham. Latham is lucky to even have one YLS person in its summer class. DPW NYC alone will have 7-10 YLS summers in any given year.

There are few HLS grads at Latham.

There are few CLS grads at Latham.

There are few NYU grads at Latham.

There are lots of UVA, Duke, Cornell, Berkeley, GULC and UCLA people at Latham. These schools are considered categorically unprestigious at elite Manhattan law firms. People who go them are ashamed of their school when they see how much prestige is concentrated at a firm like Cleary Gottlieb. People who scored 173+ on the LSAT do not even exist at such law schools, while they are a material portion of the class at HYSCCN.

All of the elite Manhattan firms want to hire the best of the best, and are actually able to get HYSCCN graduates (i.e., scored in the top 1-2% on the LSAT) to accept their offers. HYSCCN graduates do not go to Latham except maybe when they lateral to it after spending time training at an aforementioned elite Manhattan firm. Only people who couldn't get offers from the most elite Manhattan law firms go to Latham in New York. Latham is half a step below Paul, Weiss and Debevoise in the New York market.

If Latham wants to become an elite Manhattan law firm, it has to hire the best of the best. Based on all available evidence, it cannot attract HYSCCN graduates who ranked highly on the 1L curve. To get prestige, you have to hire prestige. Latham cannot hire prestige.

https://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ra ... -pedigree/

And also, their New York office is hideous AF.

Seek help.

[Anonymous User]

So much Latham hate. I think it’s clearly below Cravath and a few other firms. But it’s not a garbage NY office. It’s on par with Kirkland.

[jbagelboy]

Latham is not a peer of Cravath, DPW, S&C, Cleary or Skadden in New York, full stop. I am shocked by how many poor resumes are at L&W.

There are virtually no YLS grads at Latham. Latham is lucky to even have one YLS person in its summer class. DPW NYC alone will have 7-10 YLS summers in any given year.

There are few HLS grads at Latham.

There are few CLS grads at Latham.

There are few NYU grads at Latham.

There are lots of UVA, Duke, Cornell, Berkeley, GULC and UCLA people at Latham. These schools are considered categorically unprestigious at elite Manhattan law firms. People who go them are ashamed of their school when they see how much prestige is concentrated at a firm like Cleary Gottlieb. People who scored 173+ on the LSAT do not even exist at such law schools, while they are a material portion of the class at HYSCCN.

All of the elite Manhattan firms want to hire the best of the best, and are actually able to get HYSCCN graduates (i.e., scored in the top 1-2% on the LSAT) to accept their offers. HYSCCN graduates do not go to Latham except maybe when they lateral to it after spending time training at an aforementioned elite Manhattan firm. Only people who couldn't get offers from the most elite Manhattan law firms go to Latham in New York. Latham is half a step below Paul, Weiss and Debevoise in the New York market.

If Latham wants to become an elite Manhattan law firm, it has to hire the best of the best. Based on all available evidence, it cannot attract HYSCCN graduates who ranked highly on the 1L curve. To get prestige, you have to hire prestige. Latham cannot hire prestige.

https://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ra ... -pedigree/

And also, their New York office is hideous AF.

This is actually a pretty decent troll/parody of TLS’s worst excesses

[Yea All Right]

Latham is not a peer of Cravath, DPW, S&C, Cleary or Skadden in New York, full stop. I am shocked by how many poor resumes are at L&W.

There are virtually no YLS grads at Latham. Latham is lucky to even have one YLS person in its summer class. DPW NYC alone will have 7-10 YLS summers in any given year.

There are few HLS grads at Latham.

There are few CLS grads at Latham.

There are few NYU grads at Latham.

There are lots of UVA, Duke, Cornell, Berkeley, GULC and UCLA people at Latham. These schools are considered categorically unprestigious at elite Manhattan law firms. People who go them are ashamed of their school when they see how much prestige is concentrated at a firm like Cleary Gottlieb. People who scored 173+ on the LSAT do not even exist at such law schools, while they are a material portion of the class at HYSCCN.

All of the elite Manhattan firms want to hire the best of the best, and are actually able to get HYSCCN graduates (i.e., scored in the top 1-2% on the LSAT) to accept their offers. HYSCCN graduates do not go to Latham except maybe when they lateral to it after spending time training at an aforementioned elite Manhattan firm. Only people who couldn't get offers from the most elite Manhattan law firms go to Latham in New York. Latham is half a step below Paul, Weiss and Debevoise in the New York market.

If Latham wants to become an elite Manhattan law firm, it has to hire the best of the best. Based on all available evidence, it cannot attract HYSCCN graduates who ranked highly on the 1L curve. To get prestige, you have to hire prestige. Latham cannot hire prestige.

https://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ra ... -pedigree/

And also, their New York office is hideous AF.

This is actually a pretty decent troll/parody of TLS’s worst excesses

Sad thing is I think that person's serious

[Wild Card]

So much Latham hate. I think it’s clearly below Cravath and a few other firms. But it’s not a garbage NY office. It’s on par with Kirkland.

CR. It paid off a legal journalist to write a hit piece on the "Wall St." firms, pairing it explicitly with Kirkland.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2018 ... 0808163019

"But with a decline in financial services litigation and a potential market correction on the horizon, the business model of Wall Street’s elite may be tested.

Some are already adapting. They are finding unique service models to meet client demands and stay profitable, or relying on what many describe as a “generalist” approach that makes it easier to pivot away from, say, waning financial crisis litigation. And for many, the allure of the private equity market—once practically an afterthought—is becoming irresistible as that sector grows and early entrants like Latham & Watkins and Kirkland & Ellis reap the benefits.

...

But despite the growing business opportunities, few Wall Street firms now regularly compete for the high-end work of representing the top private equity shops in their largest deals. According to Mergermarket’s advisory league tables for 2017, the top two firms advising on U.S. private equity deal activity, by total deal value, were Kirkland & Ellis and Latham & Watkins."

Pathetic.

[Anonymous User]

https://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ra ... -pedigree/

[QContinuum]

https://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ra ... -pedigree/

As the absurdity of these rankings show, it's a fool's errand to attempt to evaluate prestige based solely on where each firm's lawyers graduated. No one (I hope) would seriously argue that Freshfields, for example, is more prestigious than Simpson, that Shearman is more prestigious than Weil, or any number of other strange results in the ATL ranking.

[Anonymous User]

I think for building your resume, Cravath is likely a better name. Of course, It really depends on which area you wanna practice. For the first few years of your career, I think it is more important to make yourself marketable with work experience at a prestigious firm.

Have to talked to the people working in the department that you want to work in? Your interviewer's personality sometimes isn't representative of the firm's. If you would like to stay with the firm for a long time, personality really matters.

[Anonymous User]

Okay, NY associate chiming in because I can’t believe this thread is still active. Cravath is more prestigious, and I don’t think there’s a serious argument to the contrary, but the difference isn’t as stark as many on this thread think it is. Here is my personal sense of the “prestige pecking order” in NY corporate:

Wachtell>>Cravath/s&c>DPW/STB/Cleary>Skadden>Latham, Weil, Kirkland, Etc.

You will do sophisticated transactions of various sizes at all of these firms, and they will all be great places to launch a career. Personally, I think the difference in prestige is more stark between Wachtell and Cravath than it is between Cravath and Latham. If this was another “Wachtell v Cravath” thread i would be arguing heavily in favor of Wachtell. In this instance, I believe it is rational to choose Latham over cravath. Cravaths rotation system would be endlessly frustrating for me, and anyone who is arguing that PE is “worse” than public is off base in my opinion. Yes PE clients are demanding, but Public mega deals are frustrating because you often get stuck working on a tiny piece of the deal, plus the process is drawn out longer. International deals are Hell though.

[Anonymous User]

Okay, NY associate chiming in because I can’t believe this thread is still active. Cravath is more prestigious, and I don’t think there’s a serious argument to the contrary, but the difference isn’t as stark as many on this thread think it is. Here is my personal sense of the “prestige pecking order” in NY corporate:

Wachtell>>Cravath/s&c>DPW/STB/Cleary>Skadden>Latham, Weil, Kirkland, Etc.

You will do sophisticated transactions of various sizes at all of these firms, and they will all be great places to launch a career. Personally, I think the difference in prestige is more stark between Wachtell and Cravath than it is between Cravath and Latham. If this was another “Wachtell v Cravath” thread i would be arguing heavily in favor of Wachtell. In this instance, I believe it is rational to choose Latham over cravath. Cravaths rotation system would be endlessly frustrating for me, and anyone who is arguing that PE is “worse” than public is off base in my opinion. Yes PE clients are demanding, but Public mega deals are frustrating because you often get stuck working on a tiny piece of the deal, plus the process is drawn out longer. International deals are Hell though.

Honest question: why does everyone like Cleary so much?