Veterans in Big Law? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hey vet military officer here at T20, slightly below the median. So far only one CB. Good interviewer - grades are the issue. Been mass mailing too (geographically diverse). Any vets with similar stats had better luck? Advice from vets in biglaw?

V/r

[Anonymous User]

Disclaimer: I’m not a vet, just a current 2L.

I’d start networking hard with veterans at firms you’ve applied to. Go to firm websites, filter the attorneys by undergrad school, and look for any attorneys who went to service academies and reach out to them. Filtering by service academy attendance obviously won’t get you every veteran at the firm, but it’s a good start. LinkedIn is your friend for finding other vets too.

[Calbears123]

Disclaimer: I’m not a vet, just a current 2L.

I’d start networking hard with veterans at firms you’ve applied to. Go to firm websites, filter the attorneys by undergrad school, and look for any attorneys who went to service academies and reach out to them. Filtering by service academy attendance obviously won’t get you every veteran at the firm, but it’s a good start. LinkedIn is your friend for finding other vets too.

This is credited advice. I don't think being a vet jumps of a resume as much as grades and school do in the eyes of the recruiting/hiring committee unless one is themselves a vet. However I think you'll chances will improve if you can reach out to an associate or partner at a firm who is themselves a vet and have them advocate on your behalf.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for the advice. It was helpful. Some things I've learned for future vets' reference:

1. Your military experience doesn't matter in a big market. If it comes between you and a KJD with even slightly better grades, they will pick the KJD every time. If it comes between you and an equally ranked candidate who has corporate experience, the other candidate will win out. Its hard for some interviewers to get past the perception that vets are rough and dumb. Note: this does not come from a place of bitterness. I simply want my fellow vets to understand their chances.

2. I've found that secondary markets care more about your service. This is not attributable to the lower grade cutoffs either. Firms in secondary markets want to engage in a more meaningful discussion about your experiences in the military. Firms in big markets will usually give an awkward "thank you for your service" and leave it at that.

3. I second all the other comments above: the only real way for you to get any bumb from being a vet is a reach out to other vets in the firm.

I'm sure people from the bigger markets will disagree with this post. Those same people probably don't know or care to know the branches of the military or military rank structure.

[Anonymous User]

just curious. is the "bigger" versus "secondary" market thing more of a geographical split (that is NE and California versus southern legal markets)?

[Anonymous User]

just curious. is the "bigger" versus "secondary" market thing more of a geographical split (that is NE and California versus southern legal markets)?

No. I have not really even been looking in the South (though I do hear that the south is more favorable towards vets). I've been looking at primarily east and west coast secondary markets (including the mountain states).

Again, I don't mean to discourage vets from applying in big markets. If you meet their cutoff, they'll give you the same shot as anyone else. The fact, however, is that it won't give you a bump. There's also a greater chance of awkwardness when it comes time to discuss your resume (I've done many mock interviews and confirmed that this is not because of my personality or interview ability).

I also don't want to imply that firms in big markets are wrong for taking this stance. I just want to help vets plan their OCI/job search because, in law school admissions, the bump from service was sizeable.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for the advice. It was helpful. Some things I've learned for future vets' reference:

1. Your military experience doesn't matter in a big market. If it comes between you and a KJD with even slightly better grades, they will pick the KJD every time. If it comes between you and an equally ranked candidate who has corporate experience, the other candidate will win out. Its hard for some interviewers to get past the perception that vets are rough and dumb. Note: this does not come from a place of bitterness. I simply want my fellow vets to understand their chances.

2. I've found that secondary markets care more about your service. This is not attributable to the lower grade cutoffs either. Firms in secondary markets want to engage in a more meaningful discussion about your experiences in the military. Firms in big markets will usually give an awkward "thank you for your service" and leave it at that.

3. I second all the other comments above: the only real way for you to get any bumb from being a vet is a reach out to other vets in the firm.

I'm sure people from the bigger markets will disagree with this post. Those same people probably don't know or care to know the branches of the military or military rank structure.

Alright dude, I'll bite. President of the Veterans affinity organization at my T14. Just wrapped up 2L OCI, and I can confidently say the vets...killed...it. I received 14 total offers from 14 callbacks/20ish screeners. I have good grades but nothing super-remarkable, a non-weird personality, and a reasonably cool resume (but I'm not some absurdly decorated war hero either). And my outcomes aren't an outlier by any stretch. Of the half-dozen or so vets who went through the process, our group celebrated offers at Cravath, Skadden, Latham, etc. in NYC. Our DC gunner is currently debating the the pros/cons of a couple V20 offers. And the other vets clean-sweeped their chosen secondary markets--think Philly, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta. Frankly, I know of zero vets who got skunked this year in any market (much less NYC/DC or their chosen target with ties).

All this to say, on some level you're right. Being a vet doesn't make anyone a "super special case" who can merely coast into a V10 NYC job on the strength of a "5 n' punch" S1er's resume and a bottom third, non-T14 GPA. Top firms in top markets see plenty of veteran traffic (not a lot but enough), and they are savvy enough to know the difference between different vet backgrounds, personalities, foibles, etc. But, if you put in the time and effort, and don't demand "Where's my veterans discount!!" at the local diner while wearing your VFW "I served" hat, you'll receive plenty of looks (and probably a few you wouldn't exactly deserve if you happened to be a K-JD).

So, to put a wrapper on this, my advice to vets reading this thread is to avoid the entitlement mentality, work your ass off, get into a good school, continue to work your ass off, be non-weird (hang out with normal people and try to un-program the "hut hut hut" that scares away the civilians), and go slay at OCI. Do the above and you will.

Good luck out there.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for the advice. It was helpful. Some things I've learned for future vets' reference:

1. Your military experience doesn't matter in a big market. If it comes between you and a KJD with even slightly better grades, they will pick the KJD every time. If it comes between you and an equally ranked candidate who has corporate experience, the other candidate will win out. Its hard for some interviewers to get past the perception that vets are rough and dumb. Note: this does not come from a place of bitterness. I simply want my fellow vets to understand their chances.

2. I've found that secondary markets care more about your service. This is not attributable to the lower grade cutoffs either. Firms in secondary markets want to engage in a more meaningful discussion about your experiences in the military. Firms in big markets will usually give an awkward "thank you for your service" and leave it at that.

3. I second all the other comments above: the only real way for you to get any bumb from being a vet is a reach out to other vets in the firm.

I'm sure people from the bigger markets will disagree with this post. Those same people probably don't know or care to know the branches of the military or military rank structure.

Alright dude, I'll bite. President of the Veterans affinity organization at my T14. Just wrapped up 2L OCI, and I can confidently say the vets...killed...it. I received 14 total offers from 14 callbacks/20ish screeners. I have good grades but nothing super-remarkable, a non-weird personality, and a reasonably cool resume (but I'm not some absurdly decorated war hero either). And my outcomes aren't an outlier by any stretch. Of the half-dozen or so vets who went through the process, our group celebrated offers at Cravath, Skadden, Latham, etc. in NYC. Our DC gunner is currently debating the the pros/cons of a couple V20 offers. And the other vets clean-sweeped their chosen secondary markets--think Philly, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta. Frankly, I know of zero vets who got skunked this year in any market (much less NYC/DC or their chosen target with ties).

All this to say, on some level you're right. Being a vet doesn't make anyone a "super special case" who can merely coast into a V10 NYC job on the strength of a "5 n' punch" S1er's resume and a bottom third, non-T14 GPA. Top firms in top markets see plenty of veteran traffic (not a lot but enough), and they are savvy enough to know the difference between different vet backgrounds, personalities, foibles, etc. But, if you put in the time and effort, and don't demand "Where's my veterans discount!!" at the local diner while wearing your VFW "I served" hat, you'll receive plenty of looks (and probably a few you wouldn't exactly deserve if you happened to be a K-JD).

So, to put a wrapper on this, my advice to vets reading this thread is to avoid the entitlement mentality, work your ass off, get into a good school, continue to work your ass off, be non-weird (hang out with normal people and try to un-program the "hut hut hut" that scares away the civilians), and go slay at OCI. Do the above and you will.

Good luck out there.

The DUDE here. I agree with everything you said minus your tone. I'm not looking for handouts and I am working hard to get a job. I am at about median (not at a t14 but a t20). For vets in THAT situation, it will be hard to get a bite from big law. Other vets at my school can confirm this.

I am happy that you go to a t14 and got above median grades - I truly am. The rest of us should practice expectation management and adjust how we bid/apply accordingly. Just because you are in that situation doesn't mean that other vets are.

It really seems like you're trying to say my assertion about firms being awkward is wrong. If you want to dispute that then do so. But don't act hostile while essentially agreeing with everything I just said.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if they're still hiring for 2L SA, but there are a LOT of veterans at squire patton boggs' DC office. 5 of the 6 people who interviewed me were veterans and mentioned that they were really liked candidates who were veterans or worked with the veteran community.

[BlackAndOrange84]

OP here. Thanks for the advice. It was helpful. Some things I've learned for future vets' reference:

1. Your military experience doesn't matter in a big market. If it comes between you and a KJD with even slightly better grades, they will pick the KJD every time. If it comes between you and an equally ranked candidate who has corporate experience, the other candidate will win out. Its hard for some interviewers to get past the perception that vets are rough and dumb. Note: this does not come from a place of bitterness. I simply want my fellow vets to understand their chances.

2. I've found that secondary markets care more about your service. This is not attributable to the lower grade cutoffs either. Firms in secondary markets want to engage in a more meaningful discussion about your experiences in the military. Firms in big markets will usually give an awkward "thank you for your service" and leave it at that.

3. I second all the other comments above: the only real way for you to get any bumb from being a vet is a reach out to other vets in the firm.

I'm sure people from the bigger markets will disagree with this post. Those same people probably don't know or care to know the branches of the military or military rank structure.

Alright dude, I'll bite. President of the Veterans affinity organization at my T14. Just wrapped up 2L OCI, and I can confidently say the vets...killed...it. I received 14 total offers from 14 callbacks/20ish screeners. I have good grades but nothing super-remarkable, a non-weird personality, and a reasonably cool resume (but I'm not some absurdly decorated war hero either). And my outcomes aren't an outlier by any stretch. Of the half-dozen or so vets who went through the process, our group celebrated offers at Cravath, Skadden, Latham, etc. in NYC. Our DC gunner is currently debating the the pros/cons of a couple V20 offers. And the other vets clean-sweeped their chosen secondary markets--think Philly, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta. Frankly, I know of zero vets who got skunked this year in any market (much less NYC/DC or their chosen target with ties).

All this to say, on some level you're right. Being a vet doesn't make anyone a "super special case" who can merely coast into a V10 NYC job on the strength of a "5 n' punch" S1er's resume and a bottom third, non-T14 GPA. Top firms in top markets see plenty of veteran traffic (not a lot but enough), and they are savvy enough to know the difference between different vet backgrounds, personalities, foibles, etc. But, if you put in the time and effort, and don't demand "Where's my veterans discount!!" at the local diner while wearing your VFW "I served" hat, you'll receive plenty of looks (and probably a few you wouldn't exactly deserve if you happened to be a K-JD).

So, to put a wrapper on this, my advice to vets reading this thread is to avoid the entitlement mentality, work your ass off, get into a good school, continue to work your ass off, be non-weird (hang out with normal people and try to un-program the "hut hut hut" that scares away the civilians), and go slay at OCI. Do the above and you will.

Good luck out there.

Not a vet myself but have known a few—I think the above is largely due to a T14 school. Vets at T14s, particularly the higher-ranked schools, seem to really kill it with firms (and clerkships), getting a significant boost from their vet status. From lower-ranked schools, I've seen people who are already highly ranked (think top 10-15%) significantly outperform their grades (i.e. they're getting outcomes that would normally be available to the top 5 or 10 students even though they're closer to the 10% or 15% mark than top 5%). But vets closer to median or below seem to get very little pure resume bump.

[UVA2B]

It seems there are a couple of issues at play here, and while none of it is wrong, some of it is incomplete. Here are the few, as I see it:

1. Law school and grades still matter. This has mostly been agreed upon, so it's really just confirming what we all know. Your law school matters. Your grades at that law school matter. Your background may overcome those two things, but that doesn't mean they won't matter.

2. Veterans are not a monolith. This one is especially important, and it's not a statement on any one veteran. Some will have resume lines that absolutely serve them and help them in getting hired, because their resume is read as more "impressive" or somehow more "hirable" by civilian employers. That may mean some technical skill, or it may mean some demonstrated leadership, or it may just connect with an interviewer or set of interviewers who think what you did in the military is "cool" or especially honorable. For the OP, it's possible that their resume didn't particularly pop with potential employers, and that's no fault of their own. And it's certainly possible/likely that every resume read is understood in totality, so it's possible the OP was borderline based on #1, and their resume didn't take them from a borderline to a yes. Or maybe the OP is at a T20 that only places 20-25% into Biglaw at best (forgive me OP, because I'm trying to treat WUSTL and Iowa as the same for these purposes, but WUSTL or UCLA or UT places in Biglaw at a much higher rate than Iowa). Regardless, it shows that being a veteran is not some curative medicine to not being otherwise competitive for Biglaw from a respective school.

3. As always, hiring can be idiosyncratic. No two firms hire exactly alike, because in the end this is still individual people making hiring decisions. It could be that a particular vet "interviews as a weirdo" or somehow doesn't impress in person, but it could just be that the person you're interviewing with doesn't see the veteran experience as at all impressive for their own reasons, so all that remains is the law school and grades. In other situations, it happens where a veteran over performs because the interviewer sees their particular military background and thinks it's really impressive, so the rest doesn't matter as much in getting to the CB and potentially the offer stage.

I think, on the whole, veterans tend to over perform OCI expectations, but that should be understood in context. Law school and grades never stop mattering, but how much they matter will vary widely based on the resume for that candidate and who they are interviewing with. I think it's an entirely fair reminder that being a veteran will not guarantee you a certain type of job, regardless of law school, grades, and the specific resume. Those things will still matter, and if that candidate doesn't bid smartly and mass mail appropriately, they can find themselves in an unfortunate position come OCI season.

[Anonymous User]

Hey OP again. Case closed: resume bump at v100 if t14. Resume bump at v200-midsize if t20. I stand by what I said that some will value your experiences more than others. I know many vets whose resumes “pop” off the page more than mine yet faired worse in OCI.

[UVA2B]

Hey OP again. Case closed: resume bump at v100 if t14. Resume bump at v200-midsize if t20. I stand by what I said that some will value your experiences more than others. I know many vets whose resumes “pop” off the page more than mine yet faired worse in OCI.

None of this, or the other things you've tried to surmise, are really true. Stop trying to summarize the experience of veterans in Biglaw hiring. You're coming off as bitter, which I guess is reasonable, but more factors go into Biglaw hiring for veterans than you can account for, which is mostly like any hiring decisions where the supply of applicants outpaces demand.

You're standing by a single data point (and possibly a few other data points that you think proves your point?), but the more subjective reality, which is probably the correct one, is that it's reasonable a T14 veteran could outperform a T20 veteran, and a T20 top 10% veteran could outperform a T14 below median veteran, and a regional T-whatever veteran with an impressive resume could outperform both of them in the market where that regional school is located.

Hiring is not strictly formulaic, even if at times you want it to be.

[BlackAndOrange84]

Hey OP again. Case closed: resume bump at v100 if t14. Resume bump at v200-midsize if t20. I stand by what I said that some will value your experiences more than others. I know many vets whose resumes “pop” off the page more than mine yet faired worse in OCI.

None of this, or the other things you've tried to surmise, are really true. Stop trying to summarize the experience of veterans in Biglaw hiring. You're coming off as bitter, which I guess is reasonable, but more factors go into Biglaw hiring for veterans than you can account for, which is mostly like any hiring decisions where the supply of applicants outpaces demand.

You're standing by a single data point (and possibly a few other data points that you think proves your point?), but the more subjective reality, which is probably the correct one, is that it's reasonable a T14 veteran could outperform a T20 veteran, and a T20 top 10% veteran could outperform a T14 below median veteran, and a regional T-whatever veteran with an impressive resume could outperform both of them in the market where that regional school is located.

Hiring is not strictly formulaic, even if at times you want it to be.

OP, I think part of your takeaway was from my admittedly very anecdotal post. I didn't mean to offer a bottom line, just some data points. UVA2B's posts are much more comprehensive and closer to the reality of hiring generally, which is complicated. As much as many people on TLS want to transpose the LSAT/GPA numbers game from law school admissions to law firm hiring, they're wildly different markets. Not to say grades don't matter, they do, obviously, but there's a lot more at play, whereas admissions can basically be boiled down to LSAT/GPA. In any case, don't get discouraged, mass mail and network your ass off.

[Anonymous User]

Hey OP again. Case closed: resume bump at v100 if t14. Resume bump at v200-midsize if t20. I stand by what I said that some will value your experiences more than others. I know many vets whose resumes “pop” off the page more than mine yet faired worse in OCI.

None of this, or the other things you've tried to surmise, are really true. Stop trying to summarize the experience of veterans in Biglaw hiring. You're coming off as bitter, which I guess is reasonable, but more factors go into Biglaw hiring for veterans than you can account for, which is mostly like any hiring decisions where the supply of applicants outpaces demand.

You're standing by a single data point (and possibly a few other data points that you think proves your point?), but the more subjective reality, which is probably the correct one, is that it's reasonable a T14 veteran could outperform a T20 veteran, and a T20 top 10% veteran could outperform a T14 below median veteran, and a regional T-whatever veteran with an impressive resume could outperform both of them in the market where that regional school is located.

Hiring is not strictly formulaic, even if at times you want it to be.

I apologize. I should have been more specific. I understand that I am not giving a datapoint (though I’m not sure anyone on this forum can). The following reflects my experience: I am a little below median at T20 who did OCI at a large market. I received no callbacks (I don’t expect it). I have networked my butt off and received callbacks from, I guess you would call it, larger mid size firms (apologies with the terminology. I’m still learning).

I would never tell a vet not to apply to big firms if they face a similar situation. I am simply giving my experience. Am I weird? Yes (I left a profession of blowing things up to read case law). Am I good interviewer? Yes. My point is, based on my experiences, you shouldn’t expect a bump.

[Npret]

Hey OP again. Case closed: resume bump at v100 if t14. Resume bump at v200-midsize if t20. I stand by what I said that some will value your experiences more than others. I know many vets whose resumes “pop” off the page more than mine yet faired worse in OCI.

None of this, or the other things you've tried to surmise, are really true. Stop trying to summarize the experience of veterans in Biglaw hiring. You're coming off as bitter, which I guess is reasonable, but more factors go into Biglaw hiring for veterans than you can account for, which is mostly like any hiring decisions where the supply of applicants outpaces demand.

You're standing by a single data point (and possibly a few other data points that you think proves your point?), but the more subjective reality, which is probably the correct one, is that it's reasonable a T14 veteran could outperform a T20 veteran, and a T20 top 10% veteran could outperform a T14 below median veteran, and a regional T-whatever veteran with an impressive resume could outperform both of them in the market where that regional school is located.

Hiring is not strictly formulaic, even if at times you want it to be.

I apologize. I should have been more specific. I understand that I am not giving a datapoint (though I’m not sure anyone on this forum can). The following reflects my experience: I am a little below median at T20 who did OCI at a large market. I received no callbacks (I don’t expect it). I have networked my butt off and received callbacks from, I guess you would call it, larger mid size firms (apologies with the terminology. I’m still learning).

I would never tell a vet not to apply to big firms if they face a similar situation. I am simply giving my experience. Am I weird? Yes (I left a profession of blowing things up to read case law). Am I good interviewer? Yes. My point is, based on my experiences, you shouldn’t expect a bump.

What about being a veteran makes you as an individual a better candidate than the non-vets applying for the same job? I think that may need to be articulated in your interviews. Myself, I know nothing about the military other that West Point has an amazing engineering school.
I would not know how to translate your experience into job related skills. You may need to educate and inform your interviewers.

Grades (and school) matter because it’s at least an indicator a student may be able to do the work. Same thing with some work experiences. You need to figure out how your experiences help you do the job- even if it’s stuff like being a team player, taking initiative, handling stress under pressure, adapting to rapidly changing circumstances out of your control, delivering work on a deadline, being about to prioritize work, knowing how to work well with a variety of people, contributing value added to make your team better, knowing when to ask questions.

I’m guessing some of those things are true for veterans.
I don’t know how you would word it- but I think it might help if you can educate the ignorant I terviewers like me as to the training and skills you can bring to the job.
Of the stuff I listed, I feel that the most important are working well with diverse and demanding personalities, staying calm and working Efficiently under stress, flexibility with changes, and, organization and attention to detail (I just added that)

Maybe other biglaw or other interviewers can weigh in.

It’s never going to make up for grades or school, but don’t assume an interviewer thinks you’re rough. They may just be clueless like me.

[UVA2B]

Hey OP again. Case closed: resume bump at v100 if t14. Resume bump at v200-midsize if t20. I stand by what I said that some will value your experiences more than others. I know many vets whose resumes “pop” off the page more than mine yet faired worse in OCI.

None of this, or the other things you've tried to surmise, are really true. Stop trying to summarize the experience of veterans in Biglaw hiring. You're coming off as bitter, which I guess is reasonable, but more factors go into Biglaw hiring for veterans than you can account for, which is mostly like any hiring decisions where the supply of applicants outpaces demand.

You're standing by a single data point (and possibly a few other data points that you think proves your point?), but the more subjective reality, which is probably the correct one, is that it's reasonable a T14 veteran could outperform a T20 veteran, and a T20 top 10% veteran could outperform a T14 below median veteran, and a regional T-whatever veteran with an impressive resume could outperform both of them in the market where that regional school is located.

Hiring is not strictly formulaic, even if at times you want it to be.

I apologize. I should have been more specific. I understand that I am not giving a datapoint (though I’m not sure anyone on this forum can). The following reflects my experience: I am a little below median at T20 who did OCI at a large market. I received no callbacks (I don’t expect it). I have networked my butt off and received callbacks from, I guess you would call it, larger mid size firms (apologies with the terminology. I’m still learning).

I would never tell a vet not to apply to big firms if they face a similar situation. I am simply giving my experience. Am I weird? Yes (I left a profession of blowing things up to read case law). Am I good interviewer? Yes. My point is, based on my experiences, you shouldn’t expect a bump.

What about being a veteran makes you as an individual a better candidate than the non-vets applying for the same job? I think that may need to be articulated in your interviews. Myself, I know nothing about the military other that West Point has an amazing engineering school.
I would not know how to translate your experience into job related skills. You may need to educate and inform your interviewers.

Grades (and school) matter because it’s at least an indicator a student may be able to do the work. Same thing with some work experiences. You need to figure out how your experiences help you do the job- even if it’s stuff like being a team player, taking initiative, handling stress under pressure, adapting to rapidly changing circumstances out of your control, delivering work on a deadline, being about to prioritize work, knowing how to work well with a variety of people, contributing value added to make your team better, knowing when to ask questions.

I’m guessing some of those things are true for veterans.
I don’t know how you would word it- but I think it might help if you can educate the ignorant I terviewers like me as to the training and skills you can bring to the job.
Of the stuff I listed, I feel that the most important are working well with diverse and demanding personalities, staying calm and working Efficiently under stress, flexibility with changes, and, organization and attention to detail (I just added that)

Maybe other biglaw or other interviewers can weigh in.

It’s never going to make up for grades or school, but don’t assume an interviewer thinks you’re rough. They may just be clueless like me.

This is something I largely assumed, but it's nonetheless really important. Translating your resume in a way that signals to employers the skills and qualities you bring to the table is incredibly important, especially if you assume they know nothing about what you've done (I think this effort isn't strictly confined to veterans either, because it really applies to any work experience). If your resume uses any amount of militarese that isn't easy to understand for an employer, you haven't done enough to craft your resume for those reading it. That doesn't mean you explicitly need to outline everything you did; in fact, it's probably somewhat the opposite. Make your roles and responsibilities in the military understandable and digestible so that someone who understands nothing about the military can at least imply from your resume that you've done some impressive things that bring positive qualities they'd want to hire. OP may have done that well, but it shouldn't be assumed when you craft your resume.

I don't want to let this go, because it's actually really important to this anecdotal experience in Biglaw hiring, but T20 and major market are good ways to obfuscate and avoid outing, which is all well and good, but the specific T20 and the specific major markets may really matter here too. If this was a case of Vandy shooting for NYC, this could be a really good indicator of not assuming veteran status will give a boost in NYC (assuming the veteran bid realistically during OCI and mass mailed). And if we're talking UCLA/USC wanting LA, more or less the same. But if we're talking Iowa or MN wanting Chicago or any of the previously mentioned schools wanting DC (if it's not clear, I'm trying to anecdotally make a point, not using DC as the ultimate litmus test for getting Biglaw from a T20), it could just be that the veteran (which can really just be read as pre-law school experience)+school+grades didn't change hiring decisions from a no to a yes or even a maybe to a yes. T20 is a good distinction for the best regionals that have limited influence outside their region, but if you're targeting outside those regions or wouldn't otherwise be competitive from your T20 in the markets you'd target, you won't become competitive just because you're a veteran. That's not how the varied and implicit bump of being a veteran works.

[Anonymous User]

Hey OP again. Case closed: resume bump at v100 if t14. Resume bump at v200-midsize if t20. I stand by what I said that some will value your experiences more than others. I know many vets whose resumes “pop” off the page more than mine yet faired worse in OCI.

None of this, or the other things you've tried to surmise, are really true. Stop trying to summarize the experience of veterans in Biglaw hiring. You're coming off as bitter, which I guess is reasonable, but more factors go into Biglaw hiring for veterans than you can account for, which is mostly like any hiring decisions where the supply of applicants outpaces demand.

You're standing by a single data point (and possibly a few other data points that you think proves your point?), but the more subjective reality, which is probably the correct one, is that it's reasonable a T14 veteran could outperform a T20 veteran, and a T20 top 10% veteran could outperform a T14 below median veteran, and a regional T-whatever veteran with an impressive resume could outperform both of them in the market where that regional school is located.

Hiring is not strictly formulaic, even if at times you want it to be.

I apologize. I should have been more specific. I understand that I am not giving a datapoint (though I’m not sure anyone on this forum can). The following reflects my experience: I am a little below median at T20 who did OCI at a large market. I received no callbacks (I don’t expect it). I have networked my butt off and received callbacks from, I guess you would call it, larger mid size firms (apologies with the terminology. I’m still learning).

I would never tell a vet not to apply to big firms if they face a similar situation. I am simply giving my experience. Am I weird? Yes (I left a profession of blowing things up to read case law). Am I good interviewer? Yes. My point is, based on my experiences, you shouldn’t expect a bump.

What about being a veteran makes you as an individual a better candidate than the non-vets applying for the same job? I think that may need to be articulated in your interviews. Myself, I know nothing about the military other that West Point has an amazing engineering school.
I would not know how to translate your experience into job related skills. You may need to educate and inform your interviewers.

Grades (and school) matter because it’s at least an indicator a student may be able to do the work. Same thing with some work experiences. You need to figure out how your experiences help you do the job- even if it’s stuff like being a team player, taking initiative, handling stress under pressure, adapting to rapidly changing circumstances out of your control, delivering work on a deadline, being about to prioritize work, knowing how to work well with a variety of people, contributing value added to make your team better, knowing when to ask questions.

I’m guessing some of those things are true for veterans.
I don’t know how you would word it- but I think it might help if you can educate the ignorant I terviewers like me as to the training and skills you can bring to the job.
Of the stuff I listed, I feel that the most important are working well with diverse and demanding personalities, staying calm and working Efficiently under stress, flexibility with changes, and, organization and attention to detail (I just added that)

Maybe other biglaw or other interviewers can weigh in.

It’s never going to make up for grades or school, but don’t assume an interviewer thinks you’re rough. They may just be clueless like me.

Real quickly to the previous point: I agree fully with your assessment about the range of T20's. Needless to say, giving more detail would out myself.

As to Npret's point, I fully understand and accept that I have to do the convincing - this is very reasonable. However, I want to make it clear that I have done my utmost to make interviewing less of a variable in the hiring process. I have made it a point to do many mock interviews and have been told that I am doing well in this area. This suggests to me that being medianish at my school isn't sufficient.

I think, somehow, people are getting triggered by the fact that I'm alleging vet status doesn't give you a substantial bump in big law hiring. I promise you, I don't have veteran entitlement syndrome. I do believe I have valuable professional experiences to bring to the table - as has been said, I should if I want to succeed in interviews. But I'm not prancing around looking for sympathy. Law students end up where they're supposed to be and, if grades/school rank are the most important factor in that, that's great. I'm not bitter about it.

[Anonymous User]

I came to this thread for advice but this is a pretty similar thread to the normal conversations.

Just some helpful advice. If you're a Veteran and you strike out at OCI, you can backdoor to big law through DOJ Slip and then DOJ Honors. While the Veteran bump in big law is similar to URM and won't make a huge difference in your hiring chances at OCI(probably like a .2 bump) it makes a hugggeeee difference at DOJ and probably also SEC FTC etc. As a Veteran you can get hired at one of these agencies and lateral to a big law firm. Obviously not all jobs but if you want to do white collar, antitrust, securities litigation, etc, government experience in those fields is viewed similarly to being an associate at a V20 firm.

[Wanderingdrock]

Hey OP again. Case closed: resume bump at v100 if t14. Resume bump at v200-midsize if t20. I stand by what I said that some will value your experiences more than others. I know many vets whose resumes “pop” off the page more than mine yet faired worse in OCI.

None of this, or the other things you've tried to surmise, are really true. Stop trying to summarize the experience of veterans in Biglaw hiring. You're coming off as bitter, which I guess is reasonable, but more factors go into Biglaw hiring for veterans than you can account for, which is mostly like any hiring decisions where the supply of applicants outpaces demand.

You're standing by a single data point (and possibly a few other data points that you think proves your point?), but the more subjective reality, which is probably the correct one, is that it's reasonable a T14 veteran could outperform a T20 veteran, and a T20 top 10% veteran could outperform a T14 below median veteran, and a regional T-whatever veteran with an impressive resume could outperform both of them in the market where that regional school is located.

Hiring is not strictly formulaic, even if at times you want it to be.

I apologize. I should have been more specific. I understand that I am not giving a datapoint (though I’m not sure anyone on this forum can). The following reflects my experience: I am a little below median at T20 who did OCI at a large market. I received no callbacks (I don’t expect it). I have networked my butt off and received callbacks from, I guess you would call it, larger mid size firms (apologies with the terminology. I’m still learning).

I would never tell a vet not to apply to big firms if they face a similar situation. I am simply giving my experience. Am I weird? Yes (I left a profession of blowing things up to read case law). Am I good interviewer? Yes. My point is, based on my experiences, you shouldn’t expect a bump.

What about being a veteran makes you as an individual a better candidate than the non-vets applying for the same job? I think that may need to be articulated in your interviews. Myself, I know nothing about the military other that West Point has an amazing engineering school.
I would not know how to translate your experience into job related skills. You may need to educate and inform your interviewers.

Grades (and school) matter because it’s at least an indicator a student may be able to do the work. Same thing with some work experiences. You need to figure out how your experiences help you do the job- even if it’s stuff like being a team player, taking initiative, handling stress under pressure, adapting to rapidly changing circumstances out of your control, delivering work on a deadline, being about to prioritize work, knowing how to work well with a variety of people, contributing value added to make your team better, knowing when to ask questions.

I’m guessing some of those things are true for veterans.
I don’t know how you would word it- but I think it might help if you can educate the ignorant I terviewers like me as to the training and skills you can bring to the job.
Of the stuff I listed, I feel that the most important are working well with diverse and demanding personalities, staying calm and working Efficiently under stress, flexibility with changes, and, organization and attention to detail (I just added that)

Maybe other biglaw or other interviewers can weigh in.

It’s never going to make up for grades or school, but don’t assume an interviewer thinks you’re rough. They may just be clueless like me.

This is something I largely assumed, but it's nonetheless really important. Translating your resume in a way that signals to employers the skills and qualities you bring to the table is incredibly important, especially if you assume they know nothing about what you've done (I think this effort isn't strictly confined to veterans either, because it really applies to any work experience). If your resume uses any amount of militarese that isn't easy to understand for an employer, you haven't done enough to craft your resume for those reading it. That doesn't mean you explicitly need to outline everything you did; in fact, it's probably somewhat the opposite. Make your roles and responsibilities in the military understandable and digestible so that someone who understands nothing about the military can at least imply from your resume that you've done some impressive things that bring positive qualities they'd want to hire. OP may have done that well, but it shouldn't be assumed when you craft your resume.

I don't want to let this go, because it's actually really important to this anecdotal experience in Biglaw hiring, but T20 and major market are good ways to obfuscate and avoid outing, which is all well and good, but the specific T20 and the specific major markets may really matter here too. If this was a case of Vandy shooting for NYC, this could be a really good indicator of not assuming veteran status will give a boost in NYC (assuming the veteran bid realistically during OCI and mass mailed). And if we're talking UCLA/USC wanting LA, more or less the same. But if we're talking Iowa or MN wanting Chicago or any of the previously mentioned schools wanting DC (if it's not clear, I'm trying to anecdotally make a point, not using DC as the ultimate litmus test for getting Biglaw from a T20), it could just be that the veteran (which can really just be read as pre-law school experience)+school+grades didn't change hiring decisions from a no to a yes or even a maybe to a yes. T20 is a good distinction for the best regionals that have limited influence outside their region, but if you're targeting outside those regions or wouldn't otherwise be competitive from your T20 in the markets you'd target, you won't become competitive just because you're a veteran. That's not how the varied and implicit bump of being a veteran works.

Pro-tip as someone who got hired in part based on (non-U.S.) military experience, from a T14 into a V25. The answer to the question of "How does your military experience translate into Biglaw?" can always, always be "Nothing you tell me to do can be as challenging as my training/service was." Obviously helps if you were in a combat unit or otherwise received particularly grueling training, and there are ways to further tailor your response, but this will almost certainly be true, easily understood, and meaningful as an answer.