Top Law Schools

and what role will prestige play? is it more about the potentially exit options? what’s the difference when talking about a v10 and a v50 or v100 firm?

This thread will be very productive and filled with novel ideas.

No thanks

BrainsyK wrote:This thread will be very productive and filled with novel ideas.

op here. hahahahahahaha you’re right. this is a shitshow of a question. but seriously, if i have an offer from a v10 and a v100, should i be considering prestige as a factor (along with things like fit and practice area) or is that just something that 1Ls think about before they enter the legal practice?

Anonymous User wrote:op here. hahahahahahaha you’re right. this is a shitshow of a question. but seriously, if i have an offer from a v10 and a v100, should i be considering prestige as a factor (along with things like fit and practice area) or is that just something that 1Ls think about before they enter the legal practice?

If NY corporate, prestige should be a significant factor--even then, use NYC version of Vault, which still isn't slightly misaligned with NY prestige, rather than the overall ranking, which would is moderately misaligned.

If literally anything else, prestige is a tie breaker after many other factors. I have a V10 and a V5 offer outstanding. I would not take the V5. I would seriously consider turning down the V10 for a V100 if I get an offer from said V100. This is a secondary market for corporate. My main factors would be people and whether the V100 is moving to a nicer office before 2020. You'd need to research and have actual offers in hand to get a good answer.

Anonymous User wrote:and what role will prestige play? is it more about the potentially exit options? what’s the difference when talking about a v10 and a v50 or v100 firm?

I'm a V10 lit associate. Generalizing a lot, the V5 or V10 probably has higher billing rates and works on more complicated stuff (both transactional and lit) than the V100. Because of that, they are probably better positioned to weather a recession or changing trends in the industry. Exit options and lateral opportunities are also better at the higher vault firm.

I wouldn't worry too much within narrow ranges (V5 isn't that much different than V20 for a lot of practice areas). But for almost any practice area, I wouldn't take V50-V100 over a V20 without a really good reason.

"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

Traynor Brah wrote:"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

that’s fair. what is a good indicator of prestige? for those of us still in law school it’s hard to get a sense of the legal market and “prestige” without vault

Anonymous User wrote:

Traynor Brah wrote:"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

that’s fair. what is a good indicator of prestige? for those of us still in law school it’s hard to get a sense of the legal market and “prestige” without vault

Vault's prestige ranking is credible. It's based on the opinions of 19,000 lawyers, and lawyers can't rate their own firm.

"How does Vault come up with its list of the Top 100 law firms? The first step is to compile a list of the most renowned law firms across the country by reviewing the feedback we have received in previous surveys, poring over legal publications, speaking with lawyers, legal recruiters, and law firm personnel, and reviewing other published rankings. We then asked these top firms to distribute an online survey to their associates. This year, more than 19,000 attorneys returned anonymous surveys to Vault. Associates from all over the country and the world responded. We heard from lawyers in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Houston, Dallas, DC, Miami, London, Cleveland, Seattle, Orlando, Paris, Phoenix, Atlanta and many other domestic and international locations. The online survey asked attorneys to score each of the law firms on a scale of 1 to 10 based on how prestigious they perceive the firm to be. Associates were instructed to only rate those firms with which they were familiar and were not permitted to rate their own firm. Vault then tallied the scores and now presents the results in our Top 100 ranking."

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/law/vault-law-100 (click "methodology")

Some of the other Vault rankings are garbage. Always check the "methodology" section.

Vault asks midlevel associates to rank every firm based on prestige. Midlevel associates get their perception of firm prestige largely from...the Vault rankings. The entire exercise is self-reinforcing. I frankly do not see the purpose of the Vault rankings when you have Chambers, which breaks firms by geography and practice area, and AmLaw, which provides much better information about firm health.

yeah, vault methodology is garbage.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Traynor Brah wrote:"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

that’s fair. what is a good indicator of prestige? for those of us still in law school it’s hard to get a sense of the legal market and “prestige” without vault

Vault's prestige ranking is credible. It's based on the opinions of 19,000 lawyers, and lawyers can't rate their own firm.

"How does Vault come up with its list of the Top 100 law firms? The first step is to compile a list of the most renowned law firms across the country by reviewing the feedback we have received in previous surveys, poring over legal publications, speaking with lawyers, legal recruiters, and law firm personnel, and reviewing other published rankings. We then asked these top firms to distribute an online survey to their associates. This year, more than 19,000 attorneys returned anonymous surveys to Vault. Associates from all over the country and the world responded. We heard from lawyers in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Houston, Dallas, DC, Miami, London, Cleveland, Seattle, Orlando, Paris, Phoenix, Atlanta and many other domestic and international locations. The online survey asked attorneys to score each of the law firms on a scale of 1 to 10 based on how prestigious they perceive the firm to be. Associates were instructed to only rate those firms with which they were familiar and were not permitted to rate their own firm. Vault then tallied the scores and now presents the results in our Top 100 ranking."

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/law/vault-law-100 (click "methodology")

Some of the other Vault rankings are garbage. Always check the "methodology" section.

Vault really isn't a good measure of prestige. Perhaps the region-specific rankings come closer to accurately approximating prestige, but the national rankings are a joke and unduly reward mega firms for their extra name recognition.

Latham is a great example; it is now top 5 in Vault, which is absolutely preposterous. As a NY associate, I would barely consider Latham a top-15 firm, and it's certainly nowhere close to top 5. The regional ranking, at least, captures this disparity.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Traynor Brah wrote:"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

that’s fair. what is a good indicator of prestige? for those of us still in law school it’s hard to get a sense of the legal market and “prestige” without vault

Vault's prestige ranking is credible. It's based on the opinions of 19,000 lawyers, and lawyers can't rate their own firm.

"How does Vault come up with its list of the Top 100 law firms? The first step is to compile a list of the most renowned law firms across the country by reviewing the feedback we have received in previous surveys, poring over legal publications, speaking with lawyers, legal recruiters, and law firm personnel, and reviewing other published rankings. We then asked these top firms to distribute an online survey to their associates. This year, more than 19,000 attorneys returned anonymous surveys to Vault. Associates from all over the country and the world responded. We heard from lawyers in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Houston, Dallas, DC, Miami, London, Cleveland, Seattle, Orlando, Paris, Phoenix, Atlanta and many other domestic and international locations. The online survey asked attorneys to score each of the law firms on a scale of 1 to 10 based on how prestigious they perceive the firm to be. Associates were instructed to only rate those firms with which they were familiar and were not permitted to rate their own firm. Vault then tallied the scores and now presents the results in our Top 100 ranking."

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/law/vault-law-100 (click "methodology")

Some of the other Vault rankings are garbage. Always check the "methodology" section.

Vault really isn't a good measure of prestige. Perhaps the region-specific rankings come closer to accurately approximating prestige, but the national rankings are a joke and unduly reward mega firms for their extra name recognition.

Latham is a great example; it is now top 5 in Vault, which is absolutely preposterous. As a NY associate, I would barely consider Latham a top-15 firm, and it's certainly nowhere close to top 5. The regional ranking, at least, captures this disparity.

OP anon. Curious as to who you would put in the top 10. I am also in NY but making my decision about my offers very soon

If you’re deciding between firms, then just post the firms instead of making this dumb thread.

Setting aside the foibles of rankings and the like, deciding between a very top corporate firm and a less elite firm is a very much an "it depends."

Advantages of elite firm:

Consistent exposure to high-end deals
Very rarely lacking for sufficient work
Rarely having to worry about written off hours or realization rate
Confidence your firm will always match market, and will receive full bonus to associates in good standing
Exposure to blue-chip clients may lead to good in-house opportunities

Disadvantageous of elite firm:

Hours may be even worse than average for biglaw
Large offices may make it tough to stand out from the crowd
Partnership prospects generally poor (with a few notable exceptions)
Larger deal teams tend to come with larger deals, which may mean less exposure to the big picture
Reduced ability to be entrepreneurial and generate your own business as you get more senior unless you are extraordinarily well connected


If you are just looking to do the biglaw thing for a few years and pay off loans than ratchet down to a much lower-key career, the elite firm is probably not for you. Even the exit-options are likely higher-caliber than you are looking for. If you are a gung-ho type looking for the highest end work you can find, then by all means take the high-end firm.

Also, keep in mind that Vault is very NY-focused and fairly corporate-focused. The answer as to "prestige" will matter a lot based on market and specialty.

For instance, Kellogg Hansen and Patterson Belknap are #98 and not rated, respectively. Both are medium-small, very well-regarded, litigation-focused firms, so they get little love from Vault, but are both very selective and hire almost exclusively law clerks.

Interested in IP? Fish & Richardson is #70, and Finnegan isn't rated, but they're #1 and #2, respectively, in the Vault IP list. There, too, the "prestige" list fails you.

Interested in general commercial lit or corp in NY? Then the Vault 100 might be helpful.

Anonymous User wrote:
Latham is a great example; it is now top 5 in Vault, which is absolutely preposterous. As a NY associate, I would barely consider Latham a top-15 firm, and it's certainly nowhere close to top 5. The regional ranking, at least, captures this disparity.

ir8 DPW associate detected.

in all seriousness - OP should look at chambers rankings. They're not perfect, but are a better approximation of how good firms' practices are.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Traynor Brah wrote:"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

that’s fair. what is a good indicator of prestige? for those of us still in law school it’s hard to get a sense of the legal market and “prestige” without vault

Vault's prestige ranking is credible. It's based on the opinions of 19,000 lawyers, and lawyers can't rate their own firm.

"How does Vault come up with its list of the Top 100 law firms? The first step is to compile a list of the most renowned law firms across the country by reviewing the feedback we have received in previous surveys, poring over legal publications, speaking with lawyers, legal recruiters, and law firm personnel, and reviewing other published rankings. We then asked these top firms to distribute an online survey to their associates. This year, more than 19,000 attorneys returned anonymous surveys to Vault. Associates from all over the country and the world responded. We heard from lawyers in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Houston, Dallas, DC, Miami, London, Cleveland, Seattle, Orlando, Paris, Phoenix, Atlanta and many other domestic and international locations. The online survey asked attorneys to score each of the law firms on a scale of 1 to 10 based on how prestigious they perceive the firm to be. Associates were instructed to only rate those firms with which they were familiar and were not permitted to rate their own firm. Vault then tallied the scores and now presents the results in our Top 100 ranking."

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/law/vault-law-100 (click "methodology")

Some of the other Vault rankings are garbage. Always check the "methodology" section.

Vault really isn't a good measure of prestige. Perhaps the region-specific rankings come closer to accurately approximating prestige, but the national rankings are a joke and unduly reward mega firms for their extra name recognition.

Latham is a great example; it is now top 5 in Vault, which is absolutely preposterous. As a NY associate, I would barely consider Latham a top-15 firm, and it's certainly nowhere close to top 5. The regional ranking, at least, captures this disparity.

OP anon. Curious as to who you would put in the top 10. I am also in NY but making my decision about my offers very soon

I can't speak for others, but I think the below are generally seen as the top 10 "full service" firms in NYC (in alphabetical order):

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

Weil was probably in there not too long ago, but I think K&E has probably surpassed them. To be fair, Vault NY pretty closely approximates my perception of the NY market.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Traynor Brah wrote:"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

that’s fair. what is a good indicator of prestige? for those of us still in law school it’s hard to get a sense of the legal market and “prestige” without vault

Vault's prestige ranking is credible. It's based on the opinions of 19,000 lawyers, and lawyers can't rate their own firm.

"How does Vault come up with its list of the Top 100 law firms? The first step is to compile a list of the most renowned law firms across the country by reviewing the feedback we have received in previous surveys, poring over legal publications, speaking with lawyers, legal recruiters, and law firm personnel, and reviewing other published rankings. We then asked these top firms to distribute an online survey to their associates. This year, more than 19,000 attorneys returned anonymous surveys to Vault. Associates from all over the country and the world responded. We heard from lawyers in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Houston, Dallas, DC, Miami, London, Cleveland, Seattle, Orlando, Paris, Phoenix, Atlanta and many other domestic and international locations. The online survey asked attorneys to score each of the law firms on a scale of 1 to 10 based on how prestigious they perceive the firm to be. Associates were instructed to only rate those firms with which they were familiar and were not permitted to rate their own firm. Vault then tallied the scores and now presents the results in our Top 100 ranking."

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/law/vault-law-100 (click "methodology")

Some of the other Vault rankings are garbage. Always check the "methodology" section.

Vault really isn't a good measure of prestige. Perhaps the region-specific rankings come closer to accurately approximating prestige, but the national rankings are a joke and unduly reward mega firms for their extra name recognition.

Latham is a great example; it is now top 5 in Vault, which is absolutely preposterous. As a NY associate, I would barely consider Latham a top-15 firm, and it's certainly nowhere close to top 5. The regional ranking, at least, captures this disparity.

OP anon. Curious as to who you would put in the top 10. I am also in NY but making my decision about my offers very soon

I can't speak for others, but I think the below are generally seen as the top 10 "full service" firms in NYC (in alphabetical order):

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

Weil was probably in there not too long ago, but I think K&E has probably surpassed them. To be fair, Vault NY pretty closely approximates my perception of the NY market.

How far removed is White & Case from this list?

Anonymous User wrote:
I can't speak for others, but I think the below are generally seen as the top 10 "full service" firms in NYC (in alphabetical order):

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

Weil was probably in there not too long ago, but I think K&E has probably surpassed them. To be fair, Vault NY pretty closely approximates my perception of the NY market.

I agree with this list, and I am not at one of these firms. If you know you want to do litigation and have zero interest in corporate, add Quinn to this list.

Anonymous User wrote:
How far removed is White & Case from this list?

I'd say there is a second tier consisting of firms like (in no particular order) Latham, Weil, Fried Frank, Milbank, Willkie, Shearman, White and Case, and Gibson. Great firms, similar exit options, roster of institutional clients and do complex work and headline grabbing deals/cases regularly, but less frequently than the firms listed above. I will also say that if you are interested in a specialty practice group like funds, real estate, bankruptcy, IP, some firms from Tier 2 might be in Tier 1 and vice versa.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Traynor Brah wrote:"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

that’s fair. what is a good indicator of prestige? for those of us still in law school it’s hard to get a sense of the legal market and “prestige” without vault

Vault's prestige ranking is credible. It's based on the opinions of 19,000 lawyers, and lawyers can't rate their own firm.

"How does Vault come up with its list of the Top 100 law firms? The first step is to compile a list of the most renowned law firms across the country by reviewing the feedback we have received in previous surveys, poring over legal publications, speaking with lawyers, legal recruiters, and law firm personnel, and reviewing other published rankings. We then asked these top firms to distribute an online survey to their associates. This year, more than 19,000 attorneys returned anonymous surveys to Vault. Associates from all over the country and the world responded. We heard from lawyers in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Houston, Dallas, DC, Miami, London, Cleveland, Seattle, Orlando, Paris, Phoenix, Atlanta and many other domestic and international locations. The online survey asked attorneys to score each of the law firms on a scale of 1 to 10 based on how prestigious they perceive the firm to be. Associates were instructed to only rate those firms with which they were familiar and were not permitted to rate their own firm. Vault then tallied the scores and now presents the results in our Top 100 ranking."

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/law/vault-law-100 (click "methodology")

Some of the other Vault rankings are garbage. Always check the "methodology" section.

Vault really isn't a good measure of prestige. Perhaps the region-specific rankings come closer to accurately approximating prestige, but the national rankings are a joke and unduly reward mega firms for their extra name recognition.

Latham is a great example; it is now top 5 in Vault, which is absolutely preposterous. As a NY associate, I would barely consider Latham a top-15 firm, and it's certainly nowhere close to top 5. The regional ranking, at least, captures this disparity.

OP anon. Curious as to who you would put in the top 10. I am also in NY but making my decision about my offers very soon

I can't speak for others, but I think the below are generally seen as the top 10 "full service" firms in NYC (in alphabetical order):

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

Weil was probably in there not too long ago, but I think K&E has probably surpassed them. To be fair, Vault NY pretty closely approximates my perception of the NY market.

this is a great list of NY-focused firms with large corporate practices. it's fucking garbage for litigation, or speciality practices, or say, the West Coast. (that doesn't mean prestige is irrelevant. it means that vault rankings are stupid.)

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Traynor Brah wrote:"Vault" ~= prestige. "Prestige" should be one of the more important considerations, but Vault rankings are an extremely poor indicator of it in essentially any situation.

that’s fair. what is a good indicator of prestige? for those of us still in law school it’s hard to get a sense of the legal market and “prestige” without vault

Vault's prestige ranking is credible. It's based on the opinions of 19,000 lawyers, and lawyers can't rate their own firm.

"How does Vault come up with its list of the Top 100 law firms? The first step is to compile a list of the most renowned law firms across the country by reviewing the feedback we have received in previous surveys, poring over legal publications, speaking with lawyers, legal recruiters, and law firm personnel, and reviewing other published rankings. We then asked these top firms to distribute an online survey to their associates. This year, more than 19,000 attorneys returned anonymous surveys to Vault. Associates from all over the country and the world responded. We heard from lawyers in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Houston, Dallas, DC, Miami, London, Cleveland, Seattle, Orlando, Paris, Phoenix, Atlanta and many other domestic and international locations. The online survey asked attorneys to score each of the law firms on a scale of 1 to 10 based on how prestigious they perceive the firm to be. Associates were instructed to only rate those firms with which they were familiar and were not permitted to rate their own firm. Vault then tallied the scores and now presents the results in our Top 100 ranking."

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/law/vault-law-100 (click "methodology")

Some of the other Vault rankings are garbage. Always check the "methodology" section.

Vault really isn't a good measure of prestige. Perhaps the region-specific rankings come closer to accurately approximating prestige, but the national rankings are a joke and unduly reward mega firms for their extra name recognition.

Latham is a great example; it is now top 5 in Vault, which is absolutely preposterous. As a NY associate, I would barely consider Latham a top-15 firm, and it's certainly nowhere close to top 5. The regional ranking, at least, captures this disparity.

OP anon. Curious as to who you would put in the top 10. I am also in NY but making my decision about my offers very soon

I can't speak for others, but I think the below are generally seen as the top 10 "full service" firms in NYC (in alphabetical order):

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Debevoise
Kirkland & Ellis
Paul, Weiss
Simpson Thacher
Skadden
Sullivan & Cromwell
Wachtell Lipton

Weil was probably in there not too long ago, but I think K&E has probably surpassed them. To be fair, Vault NY pretty closely approximates my perception of the NY market.

this is a great list of NY-focused firms with large corporate practices. it's fucking garbage for litigation, or speciality practices, or say, the West Coast. (that doesn't mean prestige is irrelevant. it means that vault rankings are stupid.)

So what would be a good list for litigation?

(Full disclosure: I'm a rising 3L so I know very little, but here is a start of a litigation list- these are mostly drawn from where my friends at Yale choose to go, since they can go anywhere). Listed in no particular order.

NYC:
Sullivan and Cromwell
Paul, Weiss
Susman
Morvillo (boutique)
Wachtell Lipton
Cravath

DC:
Williams and Connolly
Covington and Burling
Arnold Porter
WilmerHale
Gibson
Kirkland (since they merged with Bancroft)
MTO (lol at getting an offer here without a SCOTUS clerkship)

West Coast:
MTO
Bartlitt Beck (boutique)
Keker Van Ness (boutique)
Latham
Robbins Russell
kobre and kim

South:
Susman
V&E
Latham

Discovering this thread way late, but lmao at Robbins Russell (a DC firm) and Bartlit Beck (a Chicago firm) on the West Coast.

A Chicago list would be something like:
Bartlit Beck
Eimer Stahl
MoloLamken
Goldman Ismail
Miller Shakman
Edelson (plaintiff-side)
Loevy & Loevy (plaintiff-side, PI)
Kirkland & Ellis
Jenner & Block
Sidley Austin
Barrack Ferrazzano

Notable DC omissions: Jenner & Block, Latham & Watkins, Wilkinson Walsh, MoloLamken, Gupta Wessler, Goldstein & Russell

Lots of missing Texas lit boutiques, including most notably McKool Smith