Top Law Schools

Based on last year’s release date, looks like they should come out this week. Predictions for rankings? Big movers?

Vault rankings have marginally helpful information at best.

this couldn't matter in the least

Like it or not, they matter. Same is true of USNWR rankings re “marginally helpful information.” Truth is, anyone who doesn’t think Vault rankings don’t matter is 1) lying to themselves, 2) upset about their Firm’s Vault ranking, and/or 3) maybe most importantly, forgets that Firms recruit type-A, prestigie-obsessed law students.

Anonymous User wrote:Like it or not, they matter. Same is true of USNWR rankings re “marginally helpful information.” Truth is, anyone who doesn’t think Vault rankings don’t matter is 1) lying to themselves, 2) upset about their Firm’s Vault ranking, and/or 3) maybe most importantly, forgets that Firms recruit type-A, prestigie-obsessed law students.

I didn't say they don't "matter". I said it doesn't contain any helpful information. The fact that prestige-obsessed law students seem to care about some survey that a few juniors/midlevels happen to fill out on a slow day isn't something we need to continue to perpetuate.

Anonymous User wrote:Like it or not, they matter. Same is true of USNWR rankings re “marginally helpful information.” Truth is, anyone who doesn’t think Vault rankings don’t matter is 1) lying to themselves, 2) upset about their Firm’s Vault ranking, and/or 3) maybe most importantly, forgets that Firms recruit type-A, prestigie-obsessed law students.

I think many don't consider them useful prestige rankings. Cold hard cash talks more, on average.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Like it or not, they matter. Same is true of USNWR rankings re “marginally helpful information.” Truth is, anyone who doesn’t think Vault rankings don’t matter is 1) lying to themselves, 2) upset about their Firm’s Vault ranking, and/or 3) maybe most importantly, forgets that Firms recruit type-A, prestigie-obsessed law students.

I think many don't consider them useful prestige rankings. Cold hard cash talks more, on average.

Is this a suggestion that the most prestigious law firms are the ones that have the highest PPP or net profit? ...

I was going to make a joke about choosing Baker over Munger, but it would be disingenuous because I would never get close enough to a Munger offer to consider it.

Is everyone anonymous over useless things now?
To me this is worse than anything else happening on the site.

Vault rankings matter to people who need to say their firm is higher on the list because that’s how they get self esteem. It also serves to make strivers feel bad if their firm slips.

For anything else, it should have no impact on where you decide to work.

If you are a guy working in biglaw, it only matters if you are so unattractive that you can't get laid without mentioning that you work at a V5 or V10 firm.

Why do people think that Paul Hastings is a good firm?

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Like it or not, they matter. Same is true of USNWR rankings re “marginally helpful information.” Truth is, anyone who doesn’t think Vault rankings don’t matter is 1) lying to themselves, 2) upset about their Firm’s Vault ranking, and/or 3) maybe most importantly, forgets that Firms recruit type-A, prestigie-obsessed law students.

I think many don't consider them useful prestige rankings. Cold hard cash talks more, on average.

Is this a suggestion that the most prestigious law firms are the ones that have the highest PPP or net profit? ...

Largely, yes, PPP is king. Net profits, not so much.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Like it or not, they matter. Same is true of USNWR rankings re “marginally helpful information.” Truth is, anyone who doesn’t think Vault rankings don’t matter is 1) lying to themselves, 2) upset about their Firm’s Vault ranking, and/or 3) maybe most importantly, forgets that Firms recruit type-A, prestigie-obsessed law students.

I think many don't consider them useful prestige rankings. Cold hard cash talks more, on average.

Is this a suggestion that the most prestigious law firms are the ones that have the highest PPP or net profit? ...

The Vault regional rankings do show how the firms stack up in terms of prestige on the whole. At least the New York ones do.
PPP is very important but it's different from "prestige"

Anonymous User wrote:Like it or not, they matter. Same is true of USNWR rankings re “marginally helpful information.” Truth is, anyone who doesn’t think Vault rankings don’t matter is 1) lying to themselves, 2) upset about their Firm’s Vault ranking, and/or 3) maybe most importantly, forgets that Firms recruit type-A, prestigie-obsessed law students.

This.

Everyone always says "Vault rankings mean nothing" every June, but people use designations like "V10" far more than anything else

I'm unfamiliar with the process. When did associates fill out the survey? I'm wondering if it was before the salary raises or after?

Wild Card wrote:Why do people think that Paul Hastings is a good firm?

Wondering this as well.

Anonymous User wrote:

Wild Card wrote:Why do people think that Paul Hastings is a good firm?

Wondering this as well.

I think Wild Card was making a point that V rankings "matter" because it can make firms seem better than they are.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm unfamiliar with the process. When did associates fill out the survey? I'm wondering if it was before the salary raises or after?

Months before. Like February/March.

Anonymous User wrote:Like it or not, they matter. Same is true of USNWR rankings re “marginally helpful information.” Truth is, anyone who doesn’t think Vault rankings don’t matter is 1) lying to themselves, 2) upset about their Firm’s Vault ranking, and/or 3) maybe most importantly, forgets that Firms recruit type-A, prestigie-obsessed law students.

I disagree here. Firm prestige absolutely matters. It will determine what types of deals/cases you will work on, compensation, and potential exit options. However, vault is only a rough guide to firm prestige. Whether some junior associates in 2018 think Paul Hastings is more or less prestigious than Paul Weiss as compared to a slightly different pool in 2017 is completely meaningless. Perhaps over a period of many years, the vault guide can give you an idea of which firms are on the rise, but it is a trailing indicator. You can get just as good of a picture from simply looking at the AMLAW Revenue Per Lawyer numbers (which tend to be less easily gamed than PPP). I will admit that I occasionally make reference to vault if only as a useful shorthand to refer to a general class of firms.

USNWR is pretty much the same way. School prestige is vitally important to your career prospects. But the USNWR is only a rough guide, and movements from year-to-year are meaningless. Whether Harvard is ranked 1st, second, or third in USNWR means precisely nothing to students or employers.

If Vault rankings are aren't particularly useful/meaningful (I agree they aren't to a point), what in people's opinion is the best ranking at least for practice groups? Chambers and Partners bands? Others? Or is it just something that people just happen to know?

Wacked Wombat wrote:If Vault rankings are aren't particularly useful/meaningful (I agree they aren't to a point), what in people's opinion is the best ranking at least for practice groups? Chambers and Partners bands? Others? Or is it just something that people just happen to know?

We already have rankings/comparisons for practice groups.
Chambers and Partners bands (more accurate, because firms are viewed more in terms of tiers/bands than rankings in the eyes of clients)
Vault practice area rankings
For M&A, there are also M&A league tables

And the more you work in an area, the more you know which firms are the best in your area.

Are the rankings coming out tonight or tomorrow?

new Vault 100 is out

Latham is at 5 LOL