Canadian attending law school in the USA - TN Visa - Non-Biglaw employment? Forum

[Anthony187]

Hey everyone,

I am a Canadian citizen who has earned a full-tuition scholarship to study law in the United States. As things stand right now, I would love to accept the offer, but I'm concerned about my employement prospects in the United States. From the research I have done, it looks like the only firms willing to sponsor for an H1B visa are in the 'biglaw' categorey. I find this concerning considering that biglaw is not easily attained -- the law school offering me a full-tuition scholarship does not place well into biglaw and is not located in a major biglaw market (I.e., New York, Chicago, L.A., Houston, etc.).

However, by virtue of being a Canadian citizen, I am eligble for a TN-1 Visa as per the North American Free Trade Agreement. The TN-1 Visa is susposed to be very easy to attain (I do not need a firm to sponsor me), allows for three years of continuous work, and is renewable indefinitely.

Would the TN-1 Visa open me up to non-biglaw employement in the USA? Would non-biglaw employers be concerned over the fact that I am not an American citizen/permanent resident and I am working on a TN-1 Visa? Most importantly, would the TN-1 Visa open me up to the American legal market in roughly the same way as an American citizen/permanent resident?

[NoLongerALurker]

I am frankly too drunk to respond right now but I’m responding so I can find this tomorrow to reply to.

[Anthony187]

Anyone?

[Anthony187]

I am frankly too drunk to respond right now but I’m responding so I can find this tomorrow to reply to.

Lol thank you.

Look forward to hearing from you tomorrow . Enjoy your night!

[foregetaboutdre]

Hey everyone,

I am a Canadian citizen who has earned a full-tuition scholarship to study law in the United States. As things stand right now, I would love to accept the offer, but I'm concerned about my employement prospects in the United States. From the research I have done, it looks like the only firms willing to sponsor for an H1B visa are in the 'biglaw' categorey. I find this concerning considering that biglaw is not easily attained -- the law school offering me a full-tuition scholarship does not place well into biglaw and is not located in a major biglaw market (I.e., New York, Chicago, L.A., Houston, etc.).

However, by virtue of being a Canadian citizen, I am eligble for a TN-1 Visa as per the North American Free Trade Agreement. The TN-1 Visa is susposed to be very easy to attain (I do not need a firm to sponsor me), allows for three years of continuous work, and is renewable indefinitely.

Would the TN-1 Visa open me up to non-biglaw employement in the USA? Would non-biglaw employers be concerned over the fact that I am not an American citizen/permanent resident and I am working on a TN-1 Visa? Most importantly, would the TN-1 Visa open me up to the American legal market in roughly the same way as an American citizen/permanent resident?

I'd honestly recommend speaking to an immigration lawyer about the ins and outs of that visa tbh

[Anthony187]

Hey everyone,

I am a Canadian citizen who has earned a full-tuition scholarship to study law in the United States. As things stand right now, I would love to accept the offer, but I'm concerned about my employement prospects in the United States. From the research I have done, it looks like the only firms willing to sponsor for an H1B visa are in the 'biglaw' categorey. I find this concerning considering that biglaw is not easily attained -- the law school offering me a full-tuition scholarship does not place well into biglaw and is not located in a major biglaw market (I.e., New York, Chicago, L.A., Houston, etc.).

However, by virtue of being a Canadian citizen, I am eligble for a TN-1 Visa as per the North American Free Trade Agreement. The TN-1 Visa is susposed to be very easy to attain (I do not need a firm to sponsor me), allows for three years of continuous work, and is renewable indefinitely.

Would the TN-1 Visa open me up to non-biglaw employement in the USA? Would non-biglaw employers be concerned over the fact that I am not an American citizen/permanent resident and I am working on a TN-1 Visa? Most importantly, would the TN-1 Visa open me up to the American legal market in roughly the same way as an American citizen/permanent resident?[/quote]

I'd honestly recommend speaking to an immigration lawyer about the ins and outs of that visa tbh

I've spoken to the International Students office at the University and all has pretty much been confirmed in terms of what's needed to apply, the 3 year period, and the indefinite renewability of the visa.

I'm more concerned about my lack of American citizenship/permanent residence and the way law firms (especially non-biglaw) will judge me vis-a-vis applicants with American citizenship/permanent residence.

[ClubberLang]

Why don't you just go to law school in Canada? If your school doesn't place well in biglaw, candidly, it's going to be a tough road.

[Anthony187]

Why don't you just go to law school in Canada? If your school doesn't place well in biglaw, candidly, it's going to be a tough road.

Why would it be a tough road?

Given the TN-1 Visa, I do not need a firm to sponsor me for an H1B. I can pay the costs of the TN-1 Visa by myself.

[Anonymous User]

There's an over supply of attorneys as it is. There's very little reason why a big law firm would go through the trouble and cost of sponsoring your visa when they could easily hire an American to do the job (and it would cost less).

I do know Canadians that ended up with visas in the US for attorney jobs. But they tended to have exceptional qualities. They went to elite law schools but also had very rare achievements, stuff like they attended university at Tsinghua and could speak mandarin.

You're basically taking a bet that you're worth the trouble, when there is a huge over supply of American law students seeking jobs. You might have a better shot if you have a STEM background for visa purposes.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a Canadian, at a t14..all the Canadians I know here have biglaw jobs. The firms didn’t care. They spent have enough money. A little extra work by HR and some extra money for a visa isn’t going to be what stops a biglaw firm from hiring a Canadian they prefer. The only significant obstacle is showing you have ties to an area. Even that was less of an issue that I thought because it’s not like you have a home state in the US that they are scared you’ll run back to in two years.

If you’re competitive for biglaw at you’re school, being Canadian likely won’t disqualify you. As for non-biglaw jobs they may be for sensitive to costs and the TN visa is a nice backup but unless you plan on going back to Canada, I wouldn’t rely on it indefinitely especially given the way the current admin has talked about NAFTA. At least with biglaw you can apply for H1B and give yourself a little more security.

[NoLongerALurker]

^

I echo the above.

Also note that firms are historically hesitant to sponsor associates on TN's for an H1B (idea being they're already covered, so why waste time/expense in sponsoring for H1B). Given NAFTA's kind of precarious nature at the moment, you probably want to make sure you go to a firm that's willing to H1B sponsor you (and willing to stash you in a foreign office if H1B doesn't work out and NAFTA gets yanked from underneath you). Make that a post-offer conversation, though...

Getting a TN itself is very easy and generally speaking any job that I've applied to / discussed has viewed TN eligibility as a slam dunk in terms of not using it as a disqualifying factor (i.e., basically treating me the same as a permanent resident). That might not be the case if it's a smaller shop, though -- I think the large sophisticated companies / firms get it, but others might not.

Re: the "tough road" convo above: I don't think they were referring to immigration woes. They mean it's a tough road to get a job in the States regardless if you don't go to a top firm that places well in biglaw. If your option is a "bad" school in the States vs a school in Canada, it's much more responsible to take the Canadian offer. This is neutralized somewhat (...somewhat) if you are looking at a full ride scholarship, but I think the "tough road" advice is still accurate and something you need to keep in mind.

tl;dr: if your -only- concern is immigration issues, then the TN is a very helpful thing in your back pocket and if NAFTA were more secure I would say you're good to go. Given the reality of the current climate, though, I think it's worth pausing and asking yourself if you're sure it makes sense to take a US school offer -- especially when the US school offer may not be a wise decision to begin with given its low placement and lack of major market.

[Anthony187]

^

I echo the above.

Also note that firms are historically hesitant to sponsor associates on TN's for an H1B (idea being they're already covered, so why waste time/expense in sponsoring for H1B). Given NAFTA's kind of precarious nature at the moment, you probably want to make sure you go to a firm that's willing to H1B sponsor you (and willing to stash you in a foreign office if H1B doesn't work out and NAFTA gets yanked from underneath you). Make that a post-offer conversation, though...

Getting a TN itself is very easy and generally speaking any job that I've applied to / discussed has viewed TN eligibility as a slam dunk in terms of not using it as a disqualifying factor (i.e., basically treating me the same as a permanent resident). That might not be the case if it's a smaller shop, though -- I think the large sophisticated companies / firms get it, but others might not.

Re: the "tough road" convo above: I don't think they were referring to immigration woes. They mean it's a tough road to get a job in the States regardless if you don't go to a top firm that places well in biglaw. If your option is a "bad" school in the States vs a school in Canada, it's much more responsible to take the Canadian offer. This is neutralized somewhat (...somewhat) if you are looking at a full ride scholarship, but I think the "tough road" advice is still accurate and something you need to keep in mind.

tl;dr: if your -only- concern is immigration issues, then the TN is a very helpful thing in your back pocket and if NAFTA were more secure I would say you're good to go. Given the reality of the current climate, though, I think it's worth pausing and asking yourself if you're sure it makes sense to take a US school offer -- especially when the US school offer may not be a wise decision to begin with given its low placement and lack of major market.

From the latest articles I've read, it looks a preliminary deal on NAFTA could be coming very soon. I believe the Trump administration gave a major concession on automobile manufacturing which was a major sticking point in the negotiation. For example, Rona Ambrose recently came out and said she see's major progress being made towards a deal. Similar sentiments have been echoed by all sides (including the Americans) in the negotiation. Vice President Mike Pense met with Trudeau recently and said he see's major progress towards a deal as well. Also, I do not believe that the TN visa is a major concern for the Trump administration regarding the NAFTA negotiation. The real emphasis is susposed to be on manufacturing and cross border trade. Again, from what I've read, the TN visa hasn't even been brought up in the negotiation. I know it's risky to have this opinion, but I am fairly optimistic in NAFTA's continuation.

What concerns me most is the way non-big law firms (especially mid-law) will view an applicant on OPT during the OCI process and TN-1 after OPT expires? In you opinion, should I be ok? Will I be judged much like an American citizen/permanent resident for mid-law/non-biglaw? I realize that very small firms will prefer an American citizen/permanent resident. What about mid-law?

[Anthony187]

I’m a Canadian, at a t14..all the Canadians I know here have biglaw jobs. The firms didn’t care. They spent have enough money. A little extra work by HR and some extra money for a visa isn’t going to be what stops a biglaw firm from hiring a Canadian they prefer. The only significant obstacle is showing you have ties to an area. Even that was less of an issue that I thought because it’s not like you have a home state in the US that they are scared you’ll run back to in two years.

If you’re competitive for biglaw at you’re school, being Canadian likely won’t disqualify you. As for non-biglaw jobs they may be for sensitive to costs and the TN visa is a nice backup but unless you plan on going back to Canada, I wouldn’t rely on it indefinitely especially given the way the current admin has talked about NAFTA. At least with biglaw you can apply for H1B and give yourself a little more security.

So are you saying that the TN-1 Visa should be ok for starting off in non-biglaw, but I shouldn't rely on it indefinitely? I plan on staying and working long-term in the United States, so a long-term relationship and eventual marriage is obviously something I'll be looking at (even thought it feels odd to say this in regarding to getting work authorization/permanent residency lol).

[Anthony187]

Anyone else?

[ClubberLang]

Finding a job is tough. Being Canadian is a minor impediment in biglaw. I don't know how it is in other jobs. Clerkships are out for non citizens, I imagine government is difficult. If be surprised if being Canadian was not at least somewhat of a disadvantage at other firms.

A lot of the advice is school dependent. If you got a full ride to Harvard, going is a good idea. If your full ride is to some random tier 3, probably not a good idea. Before deciding, talk to some Canadians who have gone down this career path.

[Anthony187]

Finding a job is tough. Being Canadian is a minor impediment in biglaw. I don't know how it is in other jobs. Clerkships are out for non citizens, I imagine government is difficult. If be surprised if being Canadian was not at least somewhat of a disadvantage at other firms.

A lot of the advice is school dependent. If you got a full ride to Harvard, going is a good idea. If your full ride is to some random tier 3, probably not a good idea. Before deciding, talk to some Canadians who have gone down this career path.

Thank you for the reply.

The school I'm thinking about attending is not a random T3. It's very close to being T1 and it's not located in a random backwater area of the United States lol. It's in a city of 2-2.5 million people; it's just not in a city comparable to major US cities like NY, LA, Houston, etc. and it doesn't place well into biglaw in those particular cities, but it does place into biglaw (top 10% of the class) in the city in which it is located (sorry if I should have specified this earlier).

The way I feel right now is that, if NAFTA is safe and I can get easy access to the TN-1 visa, I think I'll be ok. I know I'm a 0L, but I did win a full tuition scholarship (and a living spitend) and I'm reasonably confident about my ability to do well academically in law school.

[jhett]

Can you get into better US schools that have better access to large legal markets like NYC? It may be better to wait a year and try to upgrade. Plus you can see how NAFTA shakes out.

Alternatively, can you get into a top Canadian law school like UT or McGill? Those schools do place people into US biglaw, mostly in places like NYC or Boston.

[BasilHallward]

Finding a job is tough. Being Canadian is a minor impediment in biglaw. I don't know how it is in other jobs. Clerkships are out for non citizens, I imagine government is difficult. If be surprised if being Canadian was not at least somewhat of a disadvantage at other firms.

A lot of the advice is school dependent. If you got a full ride to Harvard, going is a good idea. If your full ride is to some random tier 3, probably not a good idea. Before deciding, talk to some Canadians who have gone down this career path.

Thank you for the reply.

The school I'm thinking about attending is not a random T3. It's very close to being T1 and it's not located in a random backwater area of the United States lol. It's in a city of 2-2.5 million people; it's just not in a city comparable to major US cities like NY, LA, Houston, etc. and it doesn't place well into biglaw in those particular cities, but it does place into biglaw (top 10% of the class) in the city in which it is located (sorry if I should have specified this earlier).

The way I feel right now is that, if NAFTA is safe and I can get easy access to the TN-1 visa, I think I'll be ok. I know I'm a 0L, but I did win a full tuition scholarship (and a living spitend) and I'm reasonably confident about my ability to do well academically in law school.

I understand that the financial risk is low, and that's good. But you will realize that, in a city like Houston or wherever you're going, connections and ties are crucial once you miss the BigLaw train. I'm not saying it's impossible at all, just be prepared to hustle 'till you're blue in the face.

[Anonymous User]

If the school isn’t at least T20, don’t go. You will struggle to get hired at any small/mid firm without citizenship, unless you were top 5% of your class or something. Why would a firm take a chance (even if it’s a slight chance) when they could just hire the next US resident from the TTT. And you are barred from lots of government work or clerkships (unless you do it for free). And you can’t hang your own shingle. Retake, or go to a school in Canada.

-Canadian at biglaw firm in US who had several fullride offers to the ASU’s of the world but went to T14 school instead and wouldn’t be at a biglaw firm if I didn’t.

[Anthony187]

^


NoLongerALurker - your thoughts on the above?

[Anthony187]

My main concern is just the way non-biglaw firms will judge an applicant on CPT/OPT and then on TN-1 (if they are hesitant to sponsor for an H1B).

Anyone other people have comment on this?

[ClubberLang]

Do you have some reason for wanting to practice in the US vs. Canada? Top firms here certainly pay much more than in Canada, but my sense is that downmarket the outcomes here are much, much worse.

It seems like you have made up your mind and are looking for validation, and I do wish you luck. What I'm trying to convey is that, on the whole, the US legal market is not that good. So barring some compelling reason for coming here, I'm surprised that someone would seek it out with perfectly good options in Canada.