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HangingAround

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by HangingAround » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
HangingAround wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know the salary scale for NC firms like RBH, Smith Anderson, or MVA? I know RBH and MVA start at 150 and Smith Anderson starts at 141, but do they have 5k increases or is it even less?
From earlier in the thread, SA starts at 150 though it is 141+9. That's separate from the bonuses there. I'm also interested in what the increases are - I've never been able to run that down.
accidental anon
Do you (or anyone) know if the $9k profit share is guaranteed every year or if it’s a more of a gimmick for it to look like $150 for first years?
My understanding is guaranteed, and I'm pretty confident about that. Spoke to a friend in CLT, from talking to folks he thinks 5k a year is about right. Which is pretty wild when you think about how almost everyone (if not everyone who has the opportunity) turns down the few NY-scale lockstep firms in CLT for MVA or RBH. Then again it's not that wild I guess when you think about the longevity, hours, and work at those lockstep firms.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:33 pm

HangingAround wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
HangingAround wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know the salary scale for NC firms like RBH, Smith Anderson, or MVA? I know RBH and MVA start at 150 and Smith Anderson starts at 141, but do they have 5k increases or is it even less?
From earlier in the thread, SA starts at 150 though it is 141+9. That's separate from the bonuses there. I'm also interested in what the increases are - I've never been able to run that down.
accidental anon
Do you (or anyone) know if the $9k profit share is guaranteed every year or if it’s a more of a gimmick for it to look like $150 for first years?
My understanding is guaranteed, and I'm pretty confident about that. Spoke to a friend in CLT, from talking to folks he thinks 5k a year is about right. Which is pretty wild when you think about how almost everyone (if not everyone who has the opportunity) turns down the few NY-scale lockstep firms in CLT for MVA or RBH. Then again it's not that wild I guess when you think about the longevity, hours, and work at those lockstep firms.
$5k is so low. I guess that is what you get for choosing to live in NC.

Thanks for the info

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by HangingAround » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
HangingAround wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
HangingAround wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know the salary scale for NC firms like RBH, Smith Anderson, or MVA? I know RBH and MVA start at 150 and Smith Anderson starts at 141, but do they have 5k increases or is it even less?
From earlier in the thread, SA starts at 150 though it is 141+9. That's separate from the bonuses there. I'm also interested in what the increases are - I've never been able to run that down.
accidental anon
Do you (or anyone) know if the $9k profit share is guaranteed every year or if it’s a more of a gimmick for it to look like $150 for first years?
My understanding is guaranteed, and I'm pretty confident about that. Spoke to a friend in CLT, from talking to folks he thinks 5k a year is about right. Which is pretty wild when you think about how almost everyone (if not everyone who has the opportunity) turns down the few NY-scale lockstep firms in CLT for MVA or RBH. Then again it's not that wild I guess when you think about the longevity, hours, and work at those lockstep firms.
$5k is so low. I guess that is what you get for choosing to live in NC.

Thanks for the info
https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-livi ... nhattan-ny

Doing alright though!

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by portsmouth14 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:13 am

[/quote]

https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-livi ... nhattan-ny

Doing alright though![/quote]

Yes. For those who don't click the link, note that a $150,000 starting salary (RBH, MVA, Smith Anderson, etc.) translates to requiring $371,000 in NYC. So, who's really getting screwed here? The only exception, of course, is student loans because those stay the same whether you're in Anchorage, Charlotte, or NYC.

Based on my experience, though, I would add that I think the salary increases are on average more than $5,000/year. I was told that 7th years are in the low-mid 200's before making partner, which is on average somewhere north of $5,000/year increase. Seems like closer to between $8,000 and $10,000. I would imagine that it's not a lockstep increase each year and that as you get more senior your increases increase.

Finally, for those considering NC firms versus NYC-type firms ... consider that even if you have a lower salary, if you make that salary for more years you will likely make more money when it's all said and done. Longevity is much greater at these smaller firms. RBH and Smith, for example, make about five new partners every year, and they have summer classes of like 6-8 people.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 24, 2019 3:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I believe RBH is below 150 starting out. Vault currently has them at 130 which might be a bit low, but I talked to one of their partners a few times before and after the Cravath raise and they originally wern't going to raise at all from about 125K stating I think. They eventually raised the next year though, and I don't think they went all the way to 150. I am not sure though. [/quote]

I think RBH is at $150,000. Their NALP page states 150k and appears to be updated for 2017. Smith Anderson starts at $141 (had to get that extra thousand) so I would guess RBH is at least $140 so them stating $150 on NALP seems dispositive. [/quote]


________



Hearing third-hand that MVA and RBH have moved to 160 and 165 respectively, given McGuireWoods move to 165 (per NALP Charlotte office). McGuireWoods Raleigh also to 165 (~40 lawyers but starting to have a small summer program it seems). That's unlike K&L which pays 165 in Charlotte, 155 in Raleigh according to NALP (around ~50 lawyers between Raleigh and RTP office). Interested to see what effect, if any, those moves have on other non-market firms in both cities.

ETA: Above the line is the quoted portion, not sure how I messed it up.

Also ETA: More importantly, looks like the McGuireWoods Raleigh summer office has four summers--more than I would expect but not sure the 1L/2L breakdown.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 24, 2019 10:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Hearing third-hand that MVA and RBH have moved to 160 and 165 respectively, given McGuireWoods move to 165 (per NALP Charlotte office). McGuireWoods Raleigh also to 165 (~40 lawyers but starting to have a small summer program it seems). That's unlike K&L which pays 165 in Charlotte, 155 in Raleigh according to NALP (around ~50 lawyers between Raleigh and RTP office). Interested to see what effect, if any, those moves have on other non-market firms in both cities.

ETA: Above the line is the quoted portion, not sure how I messed it up.

Also ETA: More importantly, looks like the McGuireWoods Raleigh summer office has four summers--more than I would expect but not sure the 1L/2L breakdown.
How credible do you believe your third-hand source to be? And is it confirmed that Mcguirewoods went to 165, I hadn't heard that. I am starting at one of those two firms in the fall and have yet to hear we have more money coming our way.... but now you've got me hoping!

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 24, 2019 11:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Hearing third-hand that MVA and RBH have moved to 160 and 165 respectively, given McGuireWoods move to 165 (per NALP Charlotte office). McGuireWoods Raleigh also to 165 (~40 lawyers but starting to have a small summer program it seems). That's unlike K&L which pays 165 in Charlotte, 155 in Raleigh according to NALP (around ~50 lawyers between Raleigh and RTP office). Interested to see what effect, if any, those moves have on other non-market firms in both cities.

ETA: Above the line is the quoted portion, not sure how I messed it up.

Also ETA: More importantly, looks like the McGuireWoods Raleigh summer office has four summers--more than I would expect but not sure the 1L/2L breakdown.
How credible do you believe your third-hand source to be? And is it confirmed that Mcguirewoods went to 165, I hadn't heard that. I am starting at one of those two firms in the fall and have yet to hear we have more money coming our way.... but now you've got me hoping!
I'm not sold on the MVA or RBH information, but I think the information from the MVA source is someone who should know. I would be surprised it RBH had actually gone up to 165, but I would not be surprised if it went up to 160. The MVA source gave my friend (who told me) the RBH number. The McGuireWoods move also makes me feel really confident about 160 soon if not already.

Definitely sure about McGuireWoods.

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/12/after-s ... he-winter/

Also see the Charlotte page on NALP (Raleigh doesn't have a page, too small)

Also friends heading there confirmed.

You not having heard when you are starting at one of those places full time makes me doubt it has happened though--seems like something they'd get to you of all people.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Sun May 26, 2019 10:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Hearing third-hand that MVA and RBH have moved to 160 and 165 respectively, given McGuireWoods move to 165 (per NALP Charlotte office). McGuireWoods Raleigh also to 165 (~40 lawyers but starting to have a small summer program it seems). That's unlike K&L which pays 165 in Charlotte, 155 in Raleigh according to NALP (around ~50 lawyers between Raleigh and RTP office). Interested to see what effect, if any, those moves have on other non-market firms in both cities.

ETA: Above the line is the quoted portion, not sure how I messed it up.

Also ETA: More importantly, looks like the McGuireWoods Raleigh summer office has four summers--more than I would expect but not sure the 1L/2L breakdown.
How credible do you believe your third-hand source to be? And is it confirmed that Mcguirewoods went to 165, I hadn't heard that. I am starting at one of those two firms in the fall and have yet to hear we have more money coming our way.... but now you've got me hoping!
I'm not sold on the MVA or RBH information, but I think the information from the MVA source is someone who should know. I would be surprised it RBH had actually gone up to 165, but I would not be surprised if it went up to 160. The MVA source gave my friend (who told me) the RBH number. The McGuireWoods move also makes me feel really confident about 160 soon if not already.

Definitely sure about McGuireWoods.

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/12/after-s ... he-winter/

Also see the Charlotte page on NALP (Raleigh doesn't have a page, too small)

Also friends heading there confirmed.

You not having heard when you are starting at one of those places full time makes me doubt it has happened though--seems like something they'd get to you of all people.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:09 pm

Any data on clerkship bonuses in Charlotte? NALP only says whether a few firms give them or not, and no amount is ever listed.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by BlackAndOrange84 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:Any data on clerkship bonuses in Charlotte? NALP only says whether a few firms give them or not, and no amount is ever listed.
$5k is what most firms will do. Some will go up to $15k/$20k. I'd expect the Cravath-paying firms in Charlotte to offer market clerkship bonuses, but they don't do much (any?) lit as I recall.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:58 pm

HangingAround wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:43 pm
Good call on this thread

For some more perspective here are my impressions from spending too much time on these things for a few years, some of this could be very wrong, I'm always trying to learn more about it:

Raleigh:

At UNC's OCI we had Smith Anderson, Wyrick Robbins, K&L Gates, Poyner Spruill, Brooks Pierce, Ellis & Winters, Troutman Sanders, Smith Moore Leatherwood, Nelson Mullins, Williams Mullen, Womble, Nexsen Pruet maybe a couple others.

E&W is a really well regarded litigation boutique but is only in Raleigh and Gboro. Brooks Pierce is highly regarded as well but is only in Raleigh/Gboro/Wilmington. Parker Poe is a highly regarded regional firm with Charlotte and Raleigh offices. Womble has a substantial presence in Raleigh but it wasn't clear at OCI if they were willing to let you start in Raleigh - they seem to encourage people interested in Raleigh to move from the Winston office to Raleigh after a couple of years and I don't know anyone starting in the Raaleigh office. McGuireWoods has a decent-sized office there, didn't do OCI for that office though. SA is well regarded, especially for transactional, and is the largest in Raleigh. Wyrick is well regarded, especially for transactional. Poyner has ~50 attorneys there doing a range of things. Nexsen I don't think is a great spot to be a summer at currently, as I pointed out in the other thread in more detail. Don't know much about the others. MVA has a small RTP office and RBH has a small CH office - I think the RBH one has a SCOTUS clerk associate and the MVA one has no associates - they didn't interview for either.

Also both K&L and McGuire don't follow lockstep comp, so even though much bigger than some of the other firms the comp might follow Raleigh market. I have no idea. But the internet says they both start at 145. I think a few of the NC-centric places would pay in that ballpark though I think the midlaw may start at 95-100 and vary place by place.

A lot of these places will have a summer or two so it's tough.

Charlotte:

We had the big NY firms - Winston, Cad, Mayer, and Dechert. Though they pay the most, most people aren't gunning for these - it's heavy securitization/capital markets work except for Winston that has some lit, etc, and it's viewed as pretty transient. Katten I guess is grouped in there too.

I'd say most people targeting Charlotte would want to work at MVA, RBH, or McGuireWoods, with the idea being that even if the hours aren't that much better (another thread mentioned a 2000 hour requirement for MVA) you're not set on securitizations and have a better chance to stick around. Each has their strengths - you can look at Chambers and Partners website for some generalization for what that's worth. Parker Poe seems strong and interviewed here too. We also had Troutman, Alston & Bird, Johnston Allison & Hord, and a smattering of others. A&B is a large presence in Charlotte doing a range of things though they were specifically interviewing for a securitization-type spot, so they wanted you to come in in a specific practice group as a summer. K&L came too. I know older people got Womble Charlotte, and I imagine that's a strong office. Poyner may have a summer here. King&Spalding is around but didn't interview for Charlotte. Bell Davis and Pitt may have a summer and does lit. James McElroy may have been here too. We had a few smaller boutique-feel type tax places come interview, but I don't know much about them and they didn't seem to hire often. I think MVA/RBH, etc are paying 150 starting, and your raises would be a lot slower than at the securitization shops. Hunton interviewed here too. Bradley takes a person or two and does 1L hiring.

A lot of people at these various firms are shootoffs from Kennedy Covington which before a merger with K&L was a well regarded NC firm - I get the impression it didn't go so hot and a lot of people left or never joined the combined entity - so now the really well regarded debt finance group at mcGuirewoods and the folks that started the Troutman office and I imagine folks all over the place come from that Kennedy Covington regional-firm background so may make even larger firms have a bit different feel in the Charlotte office

ETA: I wouldn't sleep on the sophistication of the work some of the top NC-based transactional firms are doing - they're regularly working with public companies based in NC in M&A, securities, etc that I can't imagine is much different than biglaw. Though I do think it's true that'll balance with mid market as well.
Could someone update this thread on current comp for the Raleigh midsize players (specifically Smith Anderson, Poyner, Parker Poe, etc.)?

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by JZator92 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:18 am

Also wanting to resurface this conversation regarding comp and wondering what the likelihood (if any) that you could lateral from state gov’t work to a good Raleigh firm like Brooks Pierce or Poyner Spruill. Thanks in advance!

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:31 pm

Robinson Bradshaw now starts at $180,000 and I hear MVA may even be higher than that. Robinson Bradshaw has associates in the triangle, and that salary holds up there too. MVA is only Charlotte. I would imagine that Brooks Pierce and Smith Anderson have raised their salaries, but I don’t know specifics.

With regard to the state government to Raleigh firm post, I think it depends on a lot of things, including your credentials from before state government, what work you did in state government, and what firm and practice area you’re looking at moving to. Very very very few, if any, people who currently work in state government are going to be hired as associates by Brooks Pierce or Robinson Bradshaw. It may be somewhat more likely to get hired by a Poyner-type firm, but even then it depends on what you did in state government.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by JZator92 » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:31 pm
Robinson Bradshaw now starts at $180,000 and I hear MVA may even be higher than that. Robinson Bradshaw has associates in the triangle, and that salary holds up there too. MVA is only Charlotte. I would imagine that Brooks Pierce and Smith Anderson have raised their salaries, but I don’t know specifics.

With regard to the state government to Raleigh firm post, I think it depends on a lot of things, including your credentials from before state government, what work you did in state government, and what firm and practice area you’re looking at moving to. Very very very few, if any, people who currently work in state government are going to be hired as associates by Brooks Pierce or Robinson Bradshaw. It may be somewhat more likely to get hired by a Poyner-type firm, but even then it depends on what you did in state government.
I am curious as to why you think “very very very few people” would be hired by Brooks Pierce who work in state government. I went to a top law school in the state and am primarily interested in Brooks Pierce or Smith Anderson, moreso SA. I’ve spent some time on their website and if they hire people from schools like Campbell I imagine they would hire someone from one of the best schools in they state who has solid government experience. I would prefer a litigation job but given my business experience I think I could get a corporate position there too, especially since I hear corporate groups are hiring a lot. Hmmm…am I missing something?

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:31 pm
Robinson Bradshaw now starts at $180,000 and I hear MVA may even be higher than that. Robinson Bradshaw has associates in the triangle, and that salary holds up there too. MVA is only Charlotte. I would imagine that Brooks Pierce and Smith Anderson have raised their salaries, but I don’t know specifics.

With regard to the state government to Raleigh firm post, I think it depends on a lot of things, including your credentials from before state government, what work you did in state government, and what firm and practice area you’re looking at moving to. Very very very few, if any, people who currently work in state government are going to be hired as associates by Brooks Pierce or Robinson Bradshaw. It may be somewhat more likely to get hired by a Poyner-type firm, but even then it depends on what you did in state government.

I am curious as to why you think “very very very few people” would be hired by Brooks Pierce who work in state government. I went to a top law school in the state and am primarily interested in Brooks Pierce or Smith Anderson, moreso SA. I’ve spent some time on their website and if they hire people from schools like Campbell I imagine they would hire someone from one of the best schools in they state who has solid government experience. I would prefer a litigation job but given my business experience I think I could get a corporate position there too, especially since I hear corporate groups are hiring a lot. Hmmm…am I missing something?

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:26 pm

To be clear, I didn’t say anything about Smith Anderson. I think you have a somewhat greater chance of getting hired at Smith Anderson. And the difference in the credentials between Smith Anderson and the two firms I mentioned is substantial. As you note, SA hires some Campbell grads. If you look at Brooks Pierce and RBH, you see that the typical associate’s credentials are either T14 grads or people who were tippy top of the class at UNC, and often people come in with federal clerkships.

The reality is that these firms all have relatively small numbers of associates and tend to hire mostly through their summer programs. And I see your statement about the need for associates right now, but I think that rationale doesn’t really work for these firms. These NC-based firms, with better work/life balance in a more livable area, are where a number of NY biglaw associates are wanting to flee to. That means that while there are some open positions the talent pool you’re competing against is also tough.

I assume you didn’t go to Duke, given that you phrased it as “one of the top schools in the state” instead of “the top school.” Even if you went to Duke, I don’t think my answer would change too much.

I also don’t think you’re going to have much success going in and saying “I’d prefer lit but I’ll take whatever you’re willing to give me.” Firms hire laterals to fill specific needs, and you’d be considered a lateral. Hiring generalists that can grow into practice areas is what the summer program is for. That’s why I earlier said it depends on what you do for the state—your experience will drive your opportunities, to a certain extent.

The turnover at SA is also significantly higher than it is at Brooks Pierce, for what it’s worth.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:30 pm

let me also add—do you know the best way to find out if someone with your credentials can get a job at Smith Anderson or Brooks Pierce? Go talk to some partners or associates and put your resume in.

What we on this forum think about your odds really doesn’t matter. My opinion that you’re unlikely to get a job there doesn’t matter and shouldn’t stop you from applying.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:26 pm
To be clear, I didn’t say anything about Smith Anderson. I think you have a somewhat greater chance of getting hired at Smith Anderson. And the difference in the credentials between Smith Anderson and the two firms I mentioned is substantial. As you note, SA hires some Campbell grads. If you look at Brooks Pierce and RBH, you see that the typical associate’s credentials are either T14 grads or people who were tippy top of the class at UNC, and often people come in with federal clerkships.

The reality is that these firms all have relatively small numbers of associates and tend to hire mostly through their summer programs. And I see your statement about the need for associates right now, but I think that rationale doesn’t really work for these firms. These NC-based firms, with better work/life balance in a more livable area, are where a number of NY biglaw associates are wanting to flee to. That means that while there are some open positions the talent pool you’re competing against is also tough.

I assume you didn’t go to Duke, given that you phrased it as “one of the top schools in the state” instead of “the top school.” Even if you went to Duke, I don’t think my answer would change too much.

I also don’t think you’re going to have much success going in and saying “I’d prefer lit but I’ll take whatever you’re willing to give me.” Firms hire laterals to fill specific needs, and you’d be considered a lateral. Hiring generalists that can grow into practice areas is what the summer program is for. That’s why I earlier said it depends on what you do for the state—your experience will drive your opportunities, to a certain extent.

The turnover at SA is also significantly higher than it is at Brooks Pierce, for what it’s worth.
Agree with most of this but the credentials point, at least as to SA vs. BP, seems like quite a stretch. SA's website lists 3 Campbell lawyers, two of whom graduated law school in 1984 and 1993. The third appears to be a 2021 lateral associate. BP also has a Campbell Law associate. Keep in mind both firms are in the same building like a block from Campbell law. Both firms also have lawyers from NCCU. It's just not a helpful way to distinguish them.

Looked at what seem to be the newest people listed on the lit page for SA and this is the breakdown:
- 2017 grad from UNC Law (top 10%; no fed. clerkship)
- 2018 grad from UVA Law (fed. clerkship)
- 2017 grad from UNC Law (top 10%; fed. clerkship)
- 2020 grad from Duke Law (top 5%; fed. clerkship)
- 2020 grad from WFU Law (no fed. clerkship)
- 2017 grad from NYU Law (no fed. clerkship but Cravath lateral)

Recent hires: https://www.smithlaw.com/news-3524. Look at their backgrounds for the corporate folks: top 5 student at UNC, NYU Law lateral from Kirkland, U Chicago Law, multiple Duke Law.

RBH and BP are both "band one" for lit while SA is "band two" per chambers. As to SA and BP (since Chambers breaks up corp by Charlotte vs. "Raleigh, Greensboro and surrounds") that flips with SA as band one and BP as band two.

People regularly split summers among the three firms, choosing one or the other for one reason or another. Would say RBH does the best in those matchups, although occasionally that is a Charlotte vs. Triangle decision. BP and SA also have many more lawyers in the Triangle than RBH--most of RBH's lawyers in the Triangle are in Chapel Hill rather than in Raleigh, it seems.

These firms regularly work across from generic big law firms--consider if the work life balance will necessarily be all that different than generic big law.

These firms hire lots of laterals, especially now, and overwhelmingly in corporate. Given the tight market for associates, they are probably looking at people they would not have looked at in the past. Look at the backgrounds of the recent laterals to get an idea of the candidate profile. Look for people at the firms that came from state government. Somewhere like Poyner Spruill you can see a number of folks come from state government, particularly from roles where they would have litigated heavily (i.e., AG's office). Talk to people at the firms. At the end of the day submit your resume and see what happens--you never know.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:41 pm

Let’s be real, though. In terms of credentials of lawyers, work-life balance, and pay, Robinson Bradshaw wins hands down.

Multiple Supreme Court clerks. Dozens of federal clerks. Harvard,Yale, Duke, UVA, Columbia, etc. associates. Hell, three of their associates are Duke summa grads, and at least one of those was a valedictorian.

Pay there starts at $180,000, which is higher than both BP and SA. And it’s pretty well-known as a place where people bill in the 1700 hour range.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:41 pm
Let’s be real, though. In terms of credentials of lawyers, work-life balance, and pay, Robinson Bradshaw wins hands down.

Multiple Supreme Court clerks. Dozens of federal clerks. Harvard,Yale, Duke, UVA, Columbia, etc. associates. Hell, three of their associates are Duke summa grads, and at least one of those was a valedictorian.

Pay there starts at $180,000, which is higher than both BP and SA. And it’s pretty well-known as a place where people bill in the 1700 hour range.
Certainly agree on credentials. I don’t know enough to say on pay or hours but would not be surprised for that to be correct as well.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:37 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:21 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:26 pm
To be clear, I didn’t say anything about Smith Anderson. I think you have a somewhat greater chance of getting hired at Smith Anderson. And the difference in the credentials between Smith Anderson and the two firms I mentioned is substantial. As you note, SA hires some Campbell grads. If you look at Brooks Pierce and RBH, you see that the typical associate’s credentials are either T14 grads or people who were tippy top of the class at UNC, and often people come in with federal clerkships.

The reality is that these firms all have relatively small numbers of associates and tend to hire mostly through their summer programs. And I see your statement about the need for associates right now, but I think that rationale doesn’t really work for these firms. These NC-based firms, with better work/life balance in a more livable area, are where a number of NY biglaw associates are wanting to flee to. That means that while there are some open positions the talent pool you’re competing against is also tough.

I assume you didn’t go to Duke, given that you phrased it as “one of the top schools in the state” instead of “the top school.” Even if you went to Duke, I don’t think my answer would change too much.

I also don’t think you’re going to have much success going in and saying “I’d prefer lit but I’ll take whatever you’re willing to give me.” Firms hire laterals to fill specific needs, and you’d be considered a lateral. Hiring generalists that can grow into practice areas is what the summer program is for. That’s why I earlier said it depends on what you do for the state—your experience will drive your opportunities, to a certain extent.

The turnover at SA is also significantly higher than it is at Brooks Pierce, for what it’s worth.
Agree with most of this but the credentials point, at least as to SA vs. BP, seems like quite a stretch. SA's website lists 3 Campbell lawyers, two of whom graduated law school in 1984 and 1993. The third appears to be a 2021 lateral associate. BP also has a Campbell Law associate. Keep in mind both firms are in the same building like a block from Campbell law. Both firms also have lawyers from NCCU. It's just not a helpful way to distinguish them.

Looked at what seem to be the newest people listed on the lit page for SA and this is the breakdown:
- 2017 grad from UNC Law (top 10%; no fed. clerkship)
- 2018 grad from UVA Law (fed. clerkship)
- 2017 grad from UNC Law (top 10%; fed. clerkship)
- 2020 grad from Duke Law (top 5%; fed. clerkship)
- 2020 grad from WFU Law (no fed. clerkship)
- 2017 grad from NYU Law (no fed. clerkship but Cravath lateral)

Recent hires: https://www.smithlaw.com/news-3524. Look at their backgrounds for the corporate folks: top 5 student at UNC, NYU Law lateral from Kirkland, U Chicago Law, multiple Duke Law.

RBH and BP are both "band one" for lit while SA is "band two" per chambers. As to SA and BP (since Chambers breaks up corp by Charlotte vs. "Raleigh, Greensboro and surrounds") that flips with SA as band one and BP as band two.

People regularly split summers among the three firms, choosing one or the other for one reason or another. Would say RBH does the best in those matchups, although occasionally that is a Charlotte vs. Triangle decision. BP and SA also have many more lawyers in the Triangle than RBH--most of RBH's lawyers in the Triangle are in Chapel Hill rather than in Raleigh, it seems.

These firms regularly work across from generic big law firms--consider if the work life balance will necessarily be all that different than generic big law.

These firms hire lots of laterals, especially now, and overwhelmingly in corporate. Given the tight market for associates, they are probably looking at people they would not have looked at in the past. Look at the backgrounds of the recent laterals to get an idea of the candidate profile. Look for people at the firms that came from state government. Somewhere like Poyner Spruill you can see a number of folks come from state government, particularly from roles where they would have litigated heavily (i.e., AG's office). Talk to people at the firms. At the end of the day submit your resume and see what happens--you never know.


Hmmm…sounds like someone who works at Brooks Pierce or Smith Anderson. Those are indeed very impressive backgrounds. However, I do think I could bring a new perspective to either firm that perhaps they are not prioritizing by hiring mostly students straight out of law school or after a clerkship, both of which offer utility to a firm but do not necessarily offer insight into how local governments function. I’ve perused both websites and if both firms are willing to hire middle of the pack Campbell and NCCU grads I suppose they would hire someone from Wake/UNC who has stellar grades, is personable and interviews well and brings state government experience. I think I could bring a unique perspective similar to a clerk but with understanding of how the legislature functions as I’m sure both firms do plenty given their proximity to the government there. I only mentioned a transactional group as a possibility for SA because I have two good friends from my law school class there and I think both do transactional and could get me an in.

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Anonymous User
Posts: 428110
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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:37 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:21 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:26 pm
To be clear, I didn’t say anything about Smith Anderson. I think you have a somewhat greater chance of getting hired at Smith Anderson. And the difference in the credentials between Smith Anderson and the two firms I mentioned is substantial. As you note, SA hires some Campbell grads. If you look at Brooks Pierce and RBH, you see that the typical associate’s credentials are either T14 grads or people who were tippy top of the class at UNC, and often people come in with federal clerkships.

The reality is that these firms all have relatively small numbers of associates and tend to hire mostly through their summer programs. And I see your statement about the need for associates right now, but I think that rationale doesn’t really work for these firms. These NC-based firms, with better work/life balance in a more livable area, are where a number of NY biglaw associates are wanting to flee to. That means that while there are some open positions the talent pool you’re competing against is also tough.

I assume you didn’t go to Duke, given that you phrased it as “one of the top schools in the state” instead of “the top school.” Even if you went to Duke, I don’t think my answer would change too much.

I also don’t think you’re going to have much success going in and saying “I’d prefer lit but I’ll take whatever you’re willing to give me.” Firms hire laterals to fill specific needs, and you’d be considered a lateral. Hiring generalists that can grow into practice areas is what the summer program is for. That’s why I earlier said it depends on what you do for the state—your experience will drive your opportunities, to a certain extent.

The turnover at SA is also significantly higher than it is at Brooks Pierce, for what it’s worth.
Agree with most of this but the credentials point, at least as to SA vs. BP, seems like quite a stretch. SA's website lists 3 Campbell lawyers, two of whom graduated law school in 1984 and 1993. The third appears to be a 2021 lateral associate. BP also has a Campbell Law associate. Keep in mind both firms are in the same building like a block from Campbell law. Both firms also have lawyers from NCCU. It's just not a helpful way to distinguish them.

Looked at what seem to be the newest people listed on the lit page for SA and this is the breakdown:
- 2017 grad from UNC Law (top 10%; no fed. clerkship)
- 2018 grad from UVA Law (fed. clerkship)
- 2017 grad from UNC Law (top 10%; fed. clerkship)
- 2020 grad from Duke Law (top 5%; fed. clerkship)
- 2020 grad from WFU Law (no fed. clerkship)
- 2017 grad from NYU Law (no fed. clerkship but Cravath lateral)

Recent hires: https://www.smithlaw.com/news-3524. Look at their backgrounds for the corporate folks: top 5 student at UNC, NYU Law lateral from Kirkland, U Chicago Law, multiple Duke Law.

RBH and BP are both "band one" for lit while SA is "band two" per chambers. As to SA and BP (since Chambers breaks up corp by Charlotte vs. "Raleigh, Greensboro and surrounds") that flips with SA as band one and BP as band two.

People regularly split summers among the three firms, choosing one or the other for one reason or another. Would say RBH does the best in those matchups, although occasionally that is a Charlotte vs. Triangle decision. BP and SA also have many more lawyers in the Triangle than RBH--most of RBH's lawyers in the Triangle are in Chapel Hill rather than in Raleigh, it seems.

These firms regularly work across from generic big law firms--consider if the work life balance will necessarily be all that different than generic big law.

These firms hire lots of laterals, especially now, and overwhelmingly in corporate. Given the tight market for associates, they are probably looking at people they would not have looked at in the past. Look at the backgrounds of the recent laterals to get an idea of the candidate profile. Look for people at the firms that came from state government. Somewhere like Poyner Spruill you can see a number of folks come from state government, particularly from roles where they would have litigated heavily (i.e., AG's office). Talk to people at the firms. At the end of the day submit your resume and see what happens--you never know.


Hmmm…sounds like someone who works at Brooks Pierce or Smith Anderson. Those are indeed very impressive backgrounds. However, I do think I could bring a new perspective to either firm that perhaps they are not prioritizing by hiring mostly students straight out of law school or after a clerkship, both of which offer utility to a firm but do not necessarily offer insight into how local governments function. I’ve perused both websites and if both firms are willing to hire middle of the pack Campbell and NCCU grads I suppose they would hire someone from Wake/UNC who has stellar grades, is personable and interviews well and brings state government experience. I think I could bring a unique perspective similar to a clerk but with understanding of how the legislature functions as I’m sure both firms do plenty given their proximity to the government there. I only mentioned a transactional group as a possibility for SA because I have two good friends from my law school class there and I think both do transactional and could get me an in.
Former Raleigh associate but stay tuned in to the market so chiming in.

BP's one Campbell associate was #2 in her class, and SA's one Campbell associate seems to have been about the same (summa cum laude). BP's one NCCU associate was summa cum laude (and EIC of the Law Review), and SA's one NCCU associate was magna cum laude--don't know what those mean relative to the rest of the NCCU class, but they sound impressive.

BP does not have a another attorney from either school; SA has three others (not sure if partners or counsels since doesn't specify), but I don't know that those are at all informative for a relatively junior lawyer since they are not recent (graduated from law school in 2010, 1993, and 1984).

I take it from your post that you work in state government but have some sort of local government focus. I wonder if it would be worth pursuing a role at those two firms more nuanced than transactional/litigation to take the most advantage of your unique background. Something like land use or land use+CRE if land use is too specific (isn't land use local government focused?). Both firms surely work with state government, but I would not expect it to be a large part of the transactional or litigation groups--there are separate government relations lawyers.

A question (perhaps just implied) the firms may have will be why with stellar grades you started in state gov't since that is an unusual path--not saying it's a wrong path but worth thinking about how you will address it if you need to do so.

Would you contribute to diversity in some way? I expect that is an important focus of both firms.

Finally, there are a whole lot more firms in Raleigh, many of which the two firms would probably recruit from more often than from state gov't (as you would be more likely to have relevant experience), so you could make it a multi-step process to eventually get to those two firms if need be. Also there are lots of other large, sophisticated firms in town, so might be worth casting a wider net if large firm is the goal (and really think about if that's what you want, it will likely be a very different experience from the state gov't schedule).

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:13 pm

Anyone have info on Cranfill Sumner (CSH Law) associate salaries? TYIA.

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Re: The Definitive Thread on NC Law Firms

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:34 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:41 pm
Let’s be real, though. In terms of credentials of lawyers, work-life balance, and pay, Robinson Bradshaw wins hands down.

Multiple Supreme Court clerks. Dozens of federal clerks. Harvard,Yale, Duke, UVA, Columbia, etc. associates. Hell, three of their associates are Duke summa grads, and at least one of those was a valedictorian.

Pay there starts at $180,000, which is higher than both BP and SA. And it’s pretty well-known as a place where people bill in the 1700 hour range.
Certainly agree on credentials. I don’t know enough to say on pay or hours but would not be surprised for that to be correct as well.
Hours are definitely great, as the first quote states, most associates are billing around 1700 hours a year at Robinson Bradshaw. First year associate pay is $180,000, but the salary is more compressed than standard big-law. Their profit sharing plan which contributes to attorneys' 401K is also a nice perk. Partners there are never going to be rainmakers like at other firms, but they make more than enough to live a very comfortable life in North Carolina. This work-life balance is the biggest reason they consistently get the absolute best students from UNC/people in the top 10% from Duke, UVA, etc. and why many attorneys never leave the firm.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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