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A buddy who started there in September says he worked (more than token email checks) literally every single day since he started and is on track to bill 3500 for his stub year on a prorated basis. I knew Cravath is a sweatshop, but is this in line with average expectations?

Mostly voyeurism on my part, not like this is relevant to me personally.

I summered at Cravath last summer. I know that it's not unheard of to bill over 3,000, but I would guess that the average associate is coming in at around 2,400. I would also guess that it's highly unusual for a first-year associate to be on pace to bill 3,500 in their stub year, but I'm sure that it could be possible depending on what sort of deals/cases they've been working on.

Why do you care if you're not headed there?

Yugihoe wrote:Why do you care if you're not headed there?

He literally said he's just curious, plus his friend works there.

Fwiw 3500 stub sounds like fake news, even for cravath.

fwiw people generally have extremely busy seasons but don’t end up billing at that sustained pace for the whole year.

this friend is getting it rough though no question.

Anonymous User wrote:I summered at Cravath last summer. I know that it's not unheard of to bill over 3,000, but I would guess that the average associate is coming in at around 2,400. I would also guess that it's highly unusual for a first-year associate to be on pace to bill 3,500 in their stub year, but I'm sure that it could be possible depending on what sort of deals/cases they've been working on.

Cravath mid-level here. The above is about right. Plenty of people bill over 3,000 and I have friends who have done so every year here, but most juniors probably average 2,200-2,700.

Lit is very busy at the moment, and it's keeping many juniors busier than they normally would be in their stub year. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I supervise OP's friend.

Dude has been there like 2 months. Def possible to get back to back 300 hour months if shit pops off. Also working every day is a thing, I probably have like 15 days in the last year with 0 billables recorded.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I summered at Cravath last summer. I know that it's not unheard of to bill over 3,000, but I would guess that the average associate is coming in at around 2,400. I would also guess that it's highly unusual for a first-year associate to be on pace to bill 3,500 in their stub year, but I'm sure that it could be possible depending on what sort of deals/cases they've been working on.

Cravath mid-level here. The above is about right. Plenty of people bill over 3,000 and I have friends who have done so every year here, but most juniors probably average 2,200-2,700.

Lit is very busy at the moment, and it's keeping many juniors busier than they normally would be in their stub year. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I supervise OP's friend.

So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps. Oddly enough, he says he really enjoys the work.

I work in a place that ranks about ten pegs lower on the prestige scale so like I said, pure voyeurism on my part, perhaps with a side of sour grapes.

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I summered at Cravath last summer. I know that it's not unheard of to bill over 3,000, but I would guess that the average associate is coming in at around 2,400. I would also guess that it's highly unusual for a first-year associate to be on pace to bill 3,500 in their stub year, but I'm sure that it could be possible depending on what sort of deals/cases they've been working on.

Cravath mid-level here. The above is about right. Plenty of people bill over 3,000 and I have friends who have done so every year here, but most juniors probably average 2,200-2,700.

Lit is very busy at the moment, and it's keeping many juniors busier than they normally would be in their stub year. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I supervise OP's friend.

So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps. Oddly enough, he says he really enjoys the work.

I work in a place that ranks about ten pegs lower on the prestige scale so like I said, pure voyeurism on my part, perhaps with a side of sour grapes.

If you make it to senior associate, you can often lateral to another firm where you will be in the running for partner.

Anonymous User wrote:

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I summered at Cravath last summer. I know that it's not unheard of to bill over 3,000, but I would guess that the average associate is coming in at around 2,400. I would also guess that it's highly unusual for a first-year associate to be on pace to bill 3,500 in their stub year, but I'm sure that it could be possible depending on what sort of deals/cases they've been working on.

Cravath mid-level here. The above is about right. Plenty of people bill over 3,000 and I have friends who have done so every year here, but most juniors probably average 2,200-2,700.

Lit is very busy at the moment, and it's keeping many juniors busier than they normally would be in their stub year. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I supervise OP's friend.

So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps. Oddly enough, he says he really enjoys the work.

I work in a place that ranks about ten pegs lower on the prestige scale so like I said, pure voyeurism on my part, perhaps with a side of sour grapes.

If you make it to senior associate, you can often lateral to another firm where you will be in the running for partner.

Based on skill alone? I don't imagine you're going to take significant business away from a place with longstanding blue chip clients.

I don't think the value that a cravath senior associate brings to a comparable firm is the book of business. My understanding is that some firms (not all) basically wants someone to carry on the gravy boat, and not necessarily someone to bring in a book of business.

Also the above hours don't seem out of ordinary at CSM.

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I summered at Cravath last summer. I know that it's not unheard of to bill over 3,000, but I would guess that the average associate is coming in at around 2,400. I would also guess that it's highly unusual for a first-year associate to be on pace to bill 3,500 in their stub year, but I'm sure that it could be possible depending on what sort of deals/cases they've been working on.

Cravath mid-level here. The above is about right. Plenty of people bill over 3,000 and I have friends who have done so every year here, but most juniors probably average 2,200-2,700.

Lit is very busy at the moment, and it's keeping many juniors busier than they normally would be in their stub year. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I supervise OP's friend.

So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps. Oddly enough, he says he really enjoys the work.

I work in a place that ranks about ten pegs lower on the prestige scale so like I said, pure voyeurism on my part, perhaps with a side of sour grapes.

If you make it to senior associate, you can often lateral to another firm where you will be in the running for partner.

Based on skill alone? I don't imagine you're going to take significant business away from a place with longstanding blue chip clients.

fucking lol @ skill. You have a marketable resume.

Tell your friend to lobby for higher bonuses. Imagine billing 3000+ hours and still getting crapped on bonus time. At least Kirkland has the decency to give you 1.25 - 1.75x market when they work you like a child in a 3rd world sweatshop.

jkpolk wrote:Dude has been there like 2 months. Def possible to get back to back 300 hour months if shit pops off. Also working every day is a thing, I probably have like 15 days in the last year with 0 billables recorded.

What the fuck is wrong with us?

jkpolk wrote:

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I summered at Cravath last summer. I know that it's not unheard of to bill over 3,000, but I would guess that the average associate is coming in at around 2,400. I would also guess that it's highly unusual for a first-year associate to be on pace to bill 3,500 in their stub year, but I'm sure that it could be possible depending on what sort of deals/cases they've been working on.

Cravath mid-level here. The above is about right. Plenty of people bill over 3,000 and I have friends who have done so every year here, but most juniors probably average 2,200-2,700.

Lit is very busy at the moment, and it's keeping many juniors busier than they normally would be in their stub year. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I supervise OP's friend.

So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps. Oddly enough, he says he really enjoys the work.

I work in a place that ranks about ten pegs lower on the prestige scale so like I said, pure voyeurism on my part, perhaps with a side of sour grapes.

If you make it to senior associate, you can often lateral to another firm where you will be in the running for partner.

Based on skill alone? I don't imagine you're going to take significant business away from a place with longstanding blue chip clients.

fucking lol @ skill. You have a marketable resume.

Do clients actually give a fuck where their lawyers worked before lateraling to their current firm? Some firms don't even list prior firms on firm bios.

dabigchina wrote:

jkpolk wrote:

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I summered at Cravath last summer. I know that it's not unheard of to bill over 3,000, but I would guess that the average associate is coming in at around 2,400. I would also guess that it's highly unusual for a first-year associate to be on pace to bill 3,500 in their stub year, but I'm sure that it could be possible depending on what sort of deals/cases they've been working on.

Cravath mid-level here. The above is about right. Plenty of people bill over 3,000 and I have friends who have done so every year here, but most juniors probably average 2,200-2,700.

Lit is very busy at the moment, and it's keeping many juniors busier than they normally would be in their stub year. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I supervise OP's friend.

So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps. Oddly enough, he says he really enjoys the work.

I work in a place that ranks about ten pegs lower on the prestige scale so like I said, pure voyeurism on my part, perhaps with a side of sour grapes.

If you make it to senior associate, you can often lateral to another firm where you will be in the running for partner.

Based on skill alone? I don't imagine you're going to take significant business away from a place with longstanding blue chip clients.

fucking lol @ skill. You have a marketable resume.

Do clients actually give a fuck where their lawyers worked before lateraling to their current firm? Some firms don't even list prior firms on firm bios.

Client's might not be overly sensitive to that, but I think the lateral firm uses the person's years at CSM as a proxy for ability/work ethic. Basically, lateral firm knows that the person they're getting from Cravath is going to be able to service their clients as well as anyone, and likely better.

dabigchina wrote:

jkpolk wrote:

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I summered at Cravath last summer. I know that it's not unheard of to bill over 3,000, but I would guess that the average associate is coming in at around 2,400. I would also guess that it's highly unusual for a first-year associate to be on pace to bill 3,500 in their stub year, but I'm sure that it could be possible depending on what sort of deals/cases they've been working on.

Cravath mid-level here. The above is about right. Plenty of people bill over 3,000 and I have friends who have done so every year here, but most juniors probably average 2,200-2,700.

Lit is very busy at the moment, and it's keeping many juniors busier than they normally would be in their stub year. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I supervise OP's friend.

So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps. Oddly enough, he says he really enjoys the work.

I work in a place that ranks about ten pegs lower on the prestige scale so like I said, pure voyeurism on my part, perhaps with a side of sour grapes.

If you make it to senior associate, you can often lateral to another firm where you will be in the running for partner.

Based on skill alone? I don't imagine you're going to take significant business away from a place with longstanding blue chip clients.

fucking lol @ skill. You have a marketable resume.

Do clients actually give a fuck where their lawyers worked before lateraling to their current firm? Some firms don't even list prior firms on firm bios.

Yeah - your deal sheet will follow you. it helps the GC justify hiring you. in the board presentation re. an acquisition and hiring acquisition counsel, the GC may have to justify why they hired firm X and not firm Y. obvious things like billable rates, firm rep, etc. matter (i.e. Davis Polk, etc. has an auto leg up for M&A over generic v100 because the GC can justify their choice more easily) but business folks may also like knowing who's on the team, in a close case.

without being completely cynical about this, think of a cravath/top M&A shop deal sheet like another credential with a little more applicability than where you went to school and who your daddy is (i.e. if you didn't fuck up an international acquisition and restructuring involving fucking 30 countries and local counsel etc etc, it shows that you can merge two Delaware companies without shitting yourself/making the GC look bad). you may also be able to pitch your substantive experience in an industry.

"I fucking worked on the coffee shop X acquisition"
"Amaze - so you know how to make acquisition of coffee shop y work"
"yup, ez"

Anonymous User wrote:

MaxMcMann wrote: So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps. Oddly enough, he says he really enjoys the work.

I work in a place that ranks about ten pegs lower on the prestige scale so like I said, pure voyeurism on my part, perhaps with a side of sour grapes.

If you make it to senior associate, you can often lateral to another firm where you will be in the running for partner.

This is not how books of business work.

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

MaxMcMann wrote: So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps. Oddly enough, he says he really enjoys the work.

I work in a place that ranks about ten pegs lower on the prestige scale so like I said, pure voyeurism on my part, perhaps with a side of sour grapes.

If you make it to senior associate, you can often lateral to another firm where you will be in the running for partner.

This is not how books of business work.

I'm the anon you are quoting. It has absolutely nothing to do with books of business, and everything to do with signaling to senior partners at the firm you are joining that you are a good candidate to become a junior partner and service their institutional clients effectively and at 2500 hours or more a year.

MaxMcMann wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I summered at Cravath last summer. I know that it's not unheard of to bill over 3,000, but I would guess that the average associate is coming in at around 2,400. I would also guess that it's highly unusual for a first-year associate to be on pace to bill 3,500 in their stub year, but I'm sure that it could be possible depending on what sort of deals/cases they've been working on.

Cravath mid-level here. The above is about right. Plenty of people bill over 3,000 and I have friends who have done so every year here, but most juniors probably average 2,200-2,700.

Lit is very busy at the moment, and it's keeping many juniors busier than they normally would be in their stub year. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I supervise OP's friend.

So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps. Oddly enough, he says he really enjoys the work.

I work in a place that ranks about ten pegs lower on the prestige scale so like I said, pure voyeurism on my part, perhaps with a side of sour grapes.

I'm the Cravath mid-level. I can only really speak to myself, and I definitely have times when I question why I'm here instead of somewhere more humane, but there were and are a few mostly subjective things that brought me here and, more importantly, keep me around:

(1) The partners, some of whom I really like and who trust me and give me good work. I've built good relationships with a small number of partners who have given me great work and who help me navigate the politics and obstacles of big law. Leaving would mean losing those relationships, which took a long time to build.
(2) The cases, which have been, at least for me, interesting and ground-breaking.
(3) The training, which I am confident has provided me with experience that none of my friends at other firms has gotten. That doesn't mean everyone here gets it or that you can't get it elsewhere, but busy teams and busy cases lead to opportunities for junior people. This was the main reason I chose to come here in the first place (expecting to leave within 2-3 years). It's also a reason to go to a boutique, but that wasn't an option for me out of law school.
(4) Exit options. They're not necessarily better than everywhere else, but they're probably on average better than places with a materially better work-life balance. And I know that if I wanted to leave, there are a handful of partners here who would pick up the phone and make calls to ensure that I land in a good place.
(5) Last, but not least, the staff. I think this is an underappreciated aspect of being an associate. Great staff members make my job infinitely better, and Cravath has more of them than any other firm. (That's not hyperbole; I've been told that the lawyer-to-staff ratio is lower than any other firm in NYC.) It wasn't something I ever thought of before coming here, but the quantity and quality of staff resources made available to me is a big reason it's hard to imagine working elsewhere.

(Not providing a lot of specifics here because I don't want to out myself.)

You guys should really push that staff ratio thing more. It's huge.

jd20132013 wrote:You guys should really push that staff ratio thing more. It's huge.

In fairness, Anon is defending its firm. That's a reasonable thing to do.

runinthefront wrote:

jd20132013 wrote:You guys should really push that staff ratio thing more. It's huge.

In fairness, Anon is defending its firm. That's a reasonable thing to do.

Cravath mid-level here. The fact that I thought this was an honest post probably says more about how I feel about this point. I truly think it's a big selling point that everyone else discounts.

runinthefront wrote:

jd20132013 wrote:You guys should really push that staff ratio thing more. It's huge.

In fairness, Anon is defending its firm. That's a reasonable thing to do.

I wasn't being sarcastic. Being understaffed with staff assistance is a killer.


Ask your friends at Quinn.

MaxMcMann wrote: So, if you don't mind me asking, what's the point of working at a place like Cravath versus a lower ranked V100 where you could have a semblance of a life at least some months. I'm assuming it's not the incredibly distant prospect of making partner. And my friend's a litigator so I don't know if he's juicing for those sweet M&A exit opps.

But doesn't the bolded cut in the opposite direction? Because there are far fewer in-house opportunities for litigators, those positions are more competitive and will tend to go to those who have experience running cases and interacting with clients. You don't have to go to Cravath (or bill 3000 hours a year) to get that experience, but Cravath is one of a small handful of firms that positions litigators well for a variety of exit options.