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How many hours is too many?
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:29 pm
by Anonymous User
I work at a V10 (satellite office) and I billed ~2500 last year and am on pace to bill the same this year. This is in a specialized group. I have to say it has left me pretty discontented because I get the sense that this is substantially higher than the biglaw norm. I’m thinking about lateraling. Is it irrational to want to lateral on this basis alone? Is this actually higher than the norm?
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:35 pm
by jkpolk
nah 2500 billable is typical. with a lot of year to year variety. maybe turn down work next year or take more vacations if it helps you hang in there. worst case they can you and then you have 3 months to do exactly what you're considering now.
i dont mean that 2500 isnt a lot of hours - i just mean that probably 25+% of folks will be there or higher in any given year (so it's not rare).
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:40 pm
by RaceJudicata
Obviously, that's a ton of hours. Others may be able to provide more insight, but I think it would be helpful to know how the hours come about .. e.g, are you billing a consistent 210 per month or are you fluctuating between 150s and 300 hour months? Granted, neither is pleasant -- but consistent is probably more bearable than wild fluctuations.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:44 pm
by sublime
That's a ton of hours and I wouldn't be billing that (or anywhere close to that) if not on a long trial.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:48 pm
by Anonymous User
RaceJudicata wrote:Obviously, that's a ton of hours. Others may be able to provide more insight, but I think it would be helpful to know how the hours come about .. e.g, are you billing a consistent 210 per month or are you fluctuating between 150s and 300 hour months? Granted, neither is pleasant -- but consistent is probably more bearable than wild fluctuations.
I’m OP. I tend to bill pretty consistently, between 200-250 every month. Consistent is okay, but the month-on-month grind really does wear on me. No chance to recharge.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:54 pm
by umichman
what does your typical day look like? what group?
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:23 pm
by rpupkin
jkpolk wrote:nah 2500 billable is typical. . . . probably 25+% of folks will be there or higher in any given year (so it's not rare).
Disagree. Back-to-back 2500-hour years is not typical, even by big law standards. And outside of special cases like WLRK and Susman, I don't think the bolded is true. I doubt it's true even for notorious sweatshops like KE and QE.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:39 pm
by jkpolk
rpupkin wrote:jkpolk wrote:nah 2500 billable is typical. . . . probably 25+% of folks will be there or higher in any given year (so it's not rare).
Disagree. Back-to-back 2500-hour years is not typical, even by big law standards. And outside of special cases like WLRK and Susman, I don't think the bolded is true. I doubt it's true even for notorious sweatshops like KE and QE.
I can only speak to my experience. It's normal where I am. Maybe it's 20% not 25% but 2500 in a year happens regularly. hell, target is 2000 and the average yearly is always around 2100 (includes slow juniors and partners who are fond of their boats). I think the distribution has a long left tail tbh.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:52 pm
by rpupkin
jkpolk wrote:rpupkin wrote:jkpolk wrote:nah 2500 billable is typical. . . . probably 25+% of folks will be there or higher in any given year (so it's not rare).
Disagree. Back-to-back 2500-hour years is not typical, even by big law standards. And outside of special cases like WLRK and Susman, I don't think the bolded is true. I doubt it's true even for notorious sweatshops like KE and QE.
I can only speak to my experience. It's normal where I am. Maybe it's 20% not 25% but 2500 in a year happens regularly. hell, target is 2000 and the average yearly is always around 2100 (includes slow juniors and partners who are fond of their boats). I think the distribution has a long left tail tbh.
That could be. I'm in westcoast lit, where I'd estimate that the percentage of associates who exceed 2500 hours in a given year is probably closer to 5% than 25%. Are you NYC corp, per chance?
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:54 am
by oblig.lawl.ref
That's very high at my firm. At my firm, the median is normally like within 50 hours of the bonus target, which is 1950. Median may be a tad higher in busy years. We're pretty busy this year and on track for a sub-2000 median. And above median is not much higher until you start getting to the very top billers. This is a west coast corporate heavy firm.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:01 am
by Toni V
On +2200 billing ― if you arrive at work at 8A and exit at 6P how many hours do you work from home? How many hours do you work on the weekend? BTW: There was no slow time this year.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:05 am
by Lincoln
jkpolk wrote:I can only speak to my experience. It's normal where I am. Maybe it's 20% not 25% but 2500 in a year happens regularly. hell, target is 2000 and the average yearly is always around 2100 (includes slow juniors and partners who are fond of their boats). I think the distribution has a long left tail tbh.
Same and higher for my NYC firm.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:52 am
by smokeylarue
2500 hrs is not remotely close to normal much less back to back years of that. I would say 80% of people fall within 1800 to 2200 range in any given year and then maybe 10% are the gunners/hours padders and/or people at sweatshops that hit 2400+ ...then I would say another 10% are below 1800 hrs because either a) entire group was slow or b) they are being frozen out.
You would know best what is normal in your office , ask your co workers what they're billing. If it's similar then it's a sweatshop office.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:54 am
by jd20132013
which is why, as crazy as it may seem, associates in NYC biglaw are still grossly underpaid
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:39 pm
by jkpolk
rpupkin wrote:jkpolk wrote:rpupkin wrote:jkpolk wrote:nah 2500 billable is typical. . . . probably 25+% of folks will be there or higher in any given year (so it's not rare).
Disagree. Back-to-back 2500-hour years is not typical, even by big law standards. And outside of special cases like WLRK and Susman, I don't think the bolded is true. I doubt it's true even for notorious sweatshops like KE and QE.
I can only speak to my experience. It's normal where I am. Maybe it's 20% not 25% but 2500 in a year happens regularly. hell, target is 2000 and the average yearly is always around 2100 (includes slow juniors and partners who are fond of their boats). I think the distribution has a long left tail tbh.
That could be. I'm in westcoast lit, where I'd estimate that the percentage of associates who exceed 2500 hours in a given year is probably closer to 5% than 25%. Are you NYC corp, per chance?
That's probably it - I'm NY corp.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:13 pm
by bruinfan10
So glad I work on the west coast.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:26 pm
by Lincoln
jd20132013 wrote:which is why, as crazy as it may seem, associates in NYC biglaw are still grossly underpaid
And it won't get better when they abolish the state and local tax deduction.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:27 pm
by LaLiLuLeLo
bruinfan10 wrote:So glad I work on the west coast.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:28 pm
by Anonymous User
Billed 2450 as a first year. Same pace this year. My answer is: 2500 is obviously way too many hours. But I don't think it's so rare at my firm to be in this range, and didn't want to lateral in first 2 years...the "25% are 2500 plus" conjecture sounds roughly right to me. If I end up staffed on another nightmare matter where it looks like high 2000s for next year, I will lateral immediately...so I tell myself. No guarantees that by moving you avoid the bad / unlucky case(s), but if you get on a long term horrible thing, at least you give yourself a chance of a better life. Decent percentage of people get away with billing 2000-ish at a lot of the big firms and trying to find it seems like a no brainer, assuming you don't care about long term career in b law.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:35 pm
by SmokeytheBear
LaLiLuLeLo wrote:bruinfan10 wrote:So glad I work on the west coast.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:36 pm
by merde_happens
SmokeytheBear wrote:LaLiLuLeLo wrote:bruinfan10 wrote:So glad I work on the west coast.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:21 pm
by Anonymous User
i have trouble believing some of the things in this thread. when people say this is the norm where they work, on what basis? between them and their close nit of gunner friends?
I used to work for a v5, NYC, and every year there would be a management presentation detailing health/financials of the firm. I remember one of the figures reported was average hours which were something in the range of 1900 - for the entire firm. yes there are plenty of 2400 builders and I knew of several, but to say this is the norm or average is a GROSS misstatement. you have to remember a lot of the specialties like tax, erisa, etc the people are probably on the low end. even in the corp groups there are people who just get by. unless you are gunning for partner you really don't need to exert yourself to bill 2500 (unless they just won't let you turn down work in which case you have no choice I suppose).
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:57 pm
by 2014
The high outliers get more publicity so they get overstated. I bet 2500 is something close to the 90th percentile for non-WLRK NY firms and in any event it's too high for anyone to consider reasonably sustainable. It's unfortunately in the limbo band between "this person works really hard, i'm sure it'll get better though" and "this person works too hard, we as a firm need to find a way to bring their hours down" and the byproduct of that seems to often be getting lost in the shuffle of sympathy/recognition unless you wave the white flag and draw attention to yourself.
Most NY firms are pretty good about vacation as well, so if you are taking less than 3-4 weeks you are probably self-imposing an extra 100 hours on yourself (particularly punishing hours too as they are intended to make the others more bearable). Think very hard about your long term goals, if you are getting pressure not to take vacation and you do so anyway it's certainly (and unfairly) possible that it is a demerit against your partnership chances but no one is going to fire you for taking vacation and billing 2300-2400 (with a quality of work loosely commensurate with your class year) vs 2500+.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:06 pm
by beepboopbeep
rpupkin wrote:jkpolk wrote:rpupkin wrote:jkpolk wrote:nah 2500 billable is typical. . . . probably 25+% of folks will be there or higher in any given year (so it's not rare).
Disagree. Back-to-back 2500-hour years is not typical, even by big law standards. And outside of special cases like WLRK and Susman, I don't think the bolded is true. I doubt it's true even for notorious sweatshops like KE and QE.
I can only speak to my experience. It's normal where I am. Maybe it's 20% not 25% but 2500 in a year happens regularly. hell, target is 2000 and the average yearly is always around 2100 (includes slow juniors and partners who are fond of their boats). I think the distribution has a long left tail tbh.
That could be. I'm in westcoast lit, where I'd estimate that the percentage of associates who exceed 2500 hours in a given year is probably closer to 5% than 25%. Are you NYC corp, per chance?
Yea, lower than 5% at my westcoast lit firm. That would be top 5 between associates and partners here. Not %. Top 5 people.
edit: meaning 2500 two years in a row. Maybe just outside that for a single year.
Re: How many hours is too many?
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:19 pm
by Anonymous User
I'll probably end up with 1500 billable, 1800 total and probably worked around 2000-2100.