Fuck This Shit Forum

[SmokeytheBear]

Also think that generally the work done at large firms is useless and zero value add to society.

Oh hokay buddy. I don't have the energy to address this (if the deals that I worked on did not get done, more people than necessary would have lost their jobs, banks would have folded, companies would not have grown and added jobs, and some other stuff). And I hate to go the ad hominem route, but you just sound like a grumpy pants.

You could say the same for the IT people. If the IT people did not keep the systems running banks would fold too. U are of the same value to society as IT people.

IT people are pretty fucking valuable.

I never said we were more valuable than IT people or janitors or meter maids. I was just trying to say that we are not zero or negative value, as amgio above said we are zero value.

[MKC]

Also think that generally the work done at large firms is useless and zero value add to society.

Oh hokay buddy. I don't have the energy to address this (if the deals that I worked on did not get done, more people than necessary would have lost their jobs, banks would have folded, companies would not have grown and added jobs, and some other stuff). And I hate to go the ad hominem route, but you just sound like a grumpy pants.

You could say the same for the IT people. If the IT people did not keep the systems running banks would fold too. U are of the same value to society as IT people.

IT people are pretty fucking valuable.

I never said we were more valuable than IT people or janitors or meter maids. I was just trying to say that we are not zero or negative value, as amgio above said we are zero value.

I'm agreeing with you. He seemed to be implying that IT people were also worthless.

[orangecup]

Also think that generally the work done at large firms is useless and zero value add to society.

Oh hokay buddy. I don't have the energy to address this (if the deals that I worked on did not get done, more people than necessary would have lost their jobs, banks would have folded, companies would not have grown and added jobs, and some other stuff). And I hate to go the ad hominem route, but you just sound like a grumpy pants.

Do you really think that having juniors spend hours checking for defined terms, moving commas around, and adjusting language ever so slightly adds any value to any of these transactions? It doesn't matter whether there are some errors here and there, you see them in documents all the time. This profession is obsessed with focusing on the little things that do not matter, and waste the time of associates and the money of clients doing so. It's an inherently inefficient model to milk as much money as possible.

[SmokeytheBear]

It's an inherently inefficient model to milk as much money as possible.

That's just business man.

[Rahviveh]

It's an inherently inefficient model to milk as much money as possible.

That's just business man.

Rent seeking isn't "business". It's parasitic behavior that needs to be purged from society.

[lolwat]

Do you really think that having juniors spend hours checking for defined terms, moving commas around, and adjusting language ever so slightly adds any value to any of these transactions? It doesn't matter whether there are some errors here and there, you see them in documents all the time. This profession is obsessed with focusing on the little things that do not matter, and waste the time of associates and the money of clients doing so. It's an inherently inefficient model to milk as much money as possible.

I clicked on this thread again because the subject line represents how I feel right now

But regarding this, actually every error has the potential of mattering so it makes sense in a giant deal to make sure everything is absolutely spotless.

Then again, that's because of plaintiff side attorneys who are willing to sue over bullshit like, e.g., misplaced commas which might make a contract term appear unambiguous enough that it could be read to say X instead of Y.

[orangecup]

Do you really think that having juniors spend hours checking for defined terms, moving commas around, and adjusting language ever so slightly adds any value to any of these transactions? It doesn't matter whether there are some errors here and there, you see them in documents all the time. This profession is obsessed with focusing on the little things that do not matter, and waste the time of associates and the money of clients doing so. It's an inherently inefficient model to milk as much money as possible.

I clicked on this thread again because the subject line represents how I feel right now

But regarding this, actually every error has the potential of mattering so it makes sense in a giant deal to make sure everything is absolutely spotless.

Then again, that's because of plaintiff side attorneys who are willing to sue over bullshit like, e.g., misplaced commas which might make a contract term appear unambiguous enough that it could be read to say X instead of Y.

And that's another problem with the industry. The proliferation of plaintiff firms that sue on the basis of something that doesn't matter.

During my time in big law, I came across a ton of errors in old documents. I doubt anything happened of them. When viewed from a larger scale, it just doesn't matter.

[SmokeytheBear]

It's an inherently inefficient model to milk as much money as possible.

That's just business man.

Rent seeking isn't "business". It's parasitic behavior that needs to be purged from society.

I didn't take the time to respond to the rest of what he said by saying that I disagree that all of the work that first years do is worthless. It's not worthless, for the points pointed out below.

But it doesn't go as far as rent seeking. It might be pushing the bounds of what the market will tolerate, but it is not rent seeking.

[orangecup]

I didn't take the time to respond to the rest of what he said by saying that I disagree that all of the work that first years do is worthless. It's not worthless, for the points pointed out below.

But it doesn't go as far as rent seeking. It might be pushing the bounds of what the market will tolerate, but it is not rent seeking.

There are so many other inefficiencies -- at least in the classic NY big law firm model -- that go beyond that, like partners creating unreadable hand markups, forcing the associates to decipher the changes and essentially put them through a second time, and then have those changes reviewed by the partner or someone senior again. It's basically a fraud to charge more money.

[SmokeytheBear]

I didn't take the time to respond to the rest of what he said by saying that I disagree that all of the work that first years do is worthless. It's not worthless, for the points pointed out below.

But it doesn't go as far as rent seeking. It might be pushing the bounds of what the market will tolerate, but it is not rent seeking.

There are so many other inefficiencies -- at least in the classic NY big law firm model -- that go beyond that, like partners creating unreadable hand markups, forcing the associates to decipher the changes and essentially put them through a second time, and then have those changes reviewed by the partner or someone senior again. It's basically a fraud to charge more money.

Listen, no one is going to disagree that big law is a shitty business model and that there are inefficiencies. The market has already started forcing change (see, e.g., Lathamed, alternative fee structures, Dewy, Bingham). I fully agree; I'm here just to get while the getting is good. But I think you guys are trying to equate antiquated business practices and methods with something nefarious, which I don't think it wholly is.

Anyway, I'm done on this topic. It's happy hour at Craft 9 minutes ago.

[jd20132013]

I assume smokey is in like San Diego or something-- I could just believe big law is actually humane there.

And let's be clear--they're justified in grinding associates to dust to a large extent. 180k plus bonus for a classics degree plus three years of Socratic method at law school ? The value we provide is totally just being constantly available and being willing to sacrifice everything else.

I think for most people that's not worth it for long. Which is quite normal.

[lolwat]

I assume smokey is in like San Diego or something-- I could just believe big law is actually humane there.

I think he's in LA. I'm nearby and it's pretty humane generally in SoCal - with exceptions of course.

[Anonymous User]

Are people seriously railing on OP? OP - GTFO of this profession and never look back. Many people in this job are fine working their life away to compile as much money as possible given their limited skill sets. If you aren't one of those people, then just figure out what you want to do and leave. Life is too short to do something you hate and be surrounded by assholes. I know this is the decision that I have made and it has made me a much happier person.

You just can't do this job and have a healthy lifestyle most of the time. Even if you are slow, there is nothing protecting you from being out hiking or biking or just relaxing on a Sunday afternoon and getting a random phone call asking you to sit and do hours of work. Toxic profession filled with toxic people.

+1 to everything here. Big law sucks. People who think otherwise are Stockholmed. Work on getting the hell out, OP.

Or we just lucked out with a good firm that is humane and doesn't work us to the bone. There are good firms out there. There are good offices out there. People just don't listen.

People are like "well I should go to Latham/S&C/Gibson/Skadden/K&E because I got the offer."

And we're all like, "but maybe you should look at that other non V[>10] firm offer you got because it's a dope firm with some cool shit going."

And they're all like, "but I want to go to Latham/S&C/Gibson/Skadden/K&E because it's a V[>10] and I want to maximize my [some bullshit response] that won't be available to me if I go to the other firm because it's only in the V32-43 band."

To which we're like "what fucking band is that?"

To which they're like, "I just gotta follow my gut on this."

To which we're like, "do your gut a favor and get some Pepcid before you start following it."

Then fast forward a year to the above OP.

I'm a midlevel at one of the firms you named above, in the NYC office no less, and I can say that less than 1% of the associates are even remotely fat and at least 85% of us are happy and have an amazing QOL. You should know that your miserable experience does not necessarily speak for everyone in a V10.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Are people seriously railing on OP? OP - GTFO of this profession and never look back. Many people in this job are fine working their life away to compile as much money as possible given their limited skill sets. If you aren't one of those people, then just figure out what you want to do and leave. Life is too short to do something you hate and be surrounded by assholes. I know this is the decision that I have made and it has made me a much happier person.

You just can't do this job and have a healthy lifestyle most of the time. Even if you are slow, there is nothing protecting you from being out hiking or biking or just relaxing on a Sunday afternoon and getting a random phone call asking you to sit and do hours of work. Toxic profession filled with toxic people.

+1 to everything here. Big law sucks. People who think otherwise are Stockholmed. Work on getting the hell out, OP.

Or we just lucked out with a good firm that is humane and doesn't work us to the bone. There are good firms out there. There are good offices out there. People just don't listen.

People are like "well I should go to Latham/S&C/Gibson/Skadden/K&E because I got the offer."

And we're all like, "but maybe you should look at that other non V[>10] firm offer you got because it's a dope firm with some cool shit going."

And they're all like, "but I want to go to Latham/S&C/Gibson/Skadden/K&E because it's a V[>10] and I want to maximize my [some bullshit response] that won't be available to me if I go to the other firm because it's only in the V32-43 band."

To which we're like "what fucking band is that?"

To which they're like, "I just gotta follow my gut on this."

To which we're like, "do your gut a favor and get some Pepcid before you start following it."

Then fast forward a year to the above OP.

I'm a midlevel at one of the firms you named above, in the NYC office no less, and I can say that less than 1% of the associates are even remotely fat and at least 85% of us are happy and have an amazing QOL. You should know that your miserable experience does not necessarily speak for everyone in a V10.

Calling BS. What are your billables? If over, like, 1800, you can't say with a straight face you have an amazing QOL.

[Anonymous User]

Are people seriously railing on OP? OP - GTFO of this profession and never look back. Many people in this job are fine working their life away to compile as much money as possible given their limited skill sets. If you aren't one of those people, then just figure out what you want to do and leave. Life is too short to do something you hate and be surrounded by assholes. I know this is the decision that I have made and it has made me a much happier person.

You just can't do this job and have a healthy lifestyle most of the time. Even if you are slow, there is nothing protecting you from being out hiking or biking or just relaxing on a Sunday afternoon and getting a random phone call asking you to sit and do hours of work. Toxic profession filled with toxic people.

+1 to everything here. Big law sucks. People who think otherwise are Stockholmed. Work on getting the hell out, OP.

Or we just lucked out with a good firm that is humane and doesn't work us to the bone. There are good firms out there. There are good offices out there. People just don't listen.

People are like "well I should go to Latham/S&C/Gibson/Skadden/K&E because I got the offer."

And we're all like, "but maybe you should look at that other non V[>10] firm offer you got because it's a dope firm with some cool shit going."

And they're all like, "but I want to go to Latham/S&C/Gibson/Skadden/K&E because it's a V[>10] and I want to maximize my [some bullshit response] that won't be available to me if I go to the other firm because it's only in the V32-43 band."

To which we're like "what fucking band is that?"

To which they're like, "I just gotta follow my gut on this."

To which we're like, "do your gut a favor and get some Pepcid before you start following it."

Then fast forward a year to the above OP.

I'm a midlevel at one of the firms you named above, in the NYC office no less, and I can say that less than 1% of the associates are even remotely fat and at least 85% of us are happy and have an amazing QOL. You should know that your miserable experience does not necessarily speak for everyone in a V10.

Calling BS. What are your billables? If over, like, 1800, you can't say with a straight face you have an amazing QOL.

But I can. I'm currently on pace for 2200 (though our bonus eligibility is unlocked at significantly less), as I have been every other year give or take 150 hours depending on the market. Numerous associates at my firm have children, wives, husbands, intense hobbies, etc. and everyone respects their personal "me" time. We have virtually no facetime requirement which helps.

Even a relatively high hour target (2100 maybe?) works out to about a 45 hour work week. If you have steady work, which most of the V10s do, 45 billable hours per week is by no means a nightmare. If you're at a slower firm where you need to scrounge for work, and some weeks you barely squeak by 20-30hrs, then you have a lot of ground to cover to make up that time during busier weeks; that can be problematic.

None of this is to say that there aren't times when I'm slammed and have to cancel plans or bail on family to bill around the clock, but that's the price you pay for a high six-figure salary and above-market bonus. And those times are made better by the fact that when I'm slower I can go out and do whatever the hell I want and no one is watching my back or hounding me about clocking in at 9am.

The people I work for are smart, respectful, and genuinely like what they do. Big law isn't for everyone but there are certain firm/practice area combos that can make life pretty sweet.

The issue with TLS is that it attracts all of the people that are anxious/nervous/miserable that want to commiserate about that misery. I know this because that's how I felt in law school and I've been a lurker ever since because the "woe is me" resonated with me at that time. TLS on the whole paints a dire, miserable picture of Biglaw that just isn't true for everyone across the board. There are plenty of people that love these jobs, which is why it's still damn near impossible to get them.

[sublime]

We are typically a transaction cost.

I work at NYC biglaw and most ppl generally are happy ish. It's not nearly as bad as I expected it to be.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Did you guys really get to a third page before anyone bothered to see that OP is a 2017 grad?

OP, have you been in Biglaw for like...a week?

[MKC]

We are typically a transaction cost.

I work at NYC biglaw and most ppl generally are happy ish. It's not nearly as bad as I expected it to be.

You might want to get that Stockholm Syndrome checked out before you make partner.

[sublime]

We are typically a transaction cost.

I work at NYC biglaw and most ppl generally are happy ish. It's not nearly as bad as I expected it to be.

You might want to get that Stockholm Syndrome checked out before you make partner.

Lol. I'll never be partner here. But I know that and act accordingly. You may bill more than me this year tho.

[rahulg91]

Did you guys really get to a third page before anyone bothered to see that OP is a 2017 grad?

OP, have you been in Biglaw for like...a week?

lol.

[Wonnker]

This has been a very provocative thread... However shitty OP's life might be, it can't be half as bad as he'd have it on the other side of the wealth divide. Too many people I grew up with are now addicted to opioids and/or working for near-minimum wage, if they are employed at all. Not a good life. Some middle ground would be nice, but tbh, I feel like anyone making a decent living in the year 2017 should be grateful. As the wise and powerful Kanye once said, "Havin' money's not everything, not havin' it is."

[Anonymous User]

This has been a very provocative thread... However shitty OP's life might be, it can't be half as bad as he'd have it on the other side of the wealth divide. Too many people I grew up with are now addicted to opioids and/or working for near-minimum wage, if they are employed at all. Not a good life. Some middle ground would be nice, but tbh, I feel like anyone making a decent living in the year 2017 should be grateful. As the wise and powerful Kanye once said, "Havin' money's not everything, not havin' it is."

I tend to fall somewhere in the middle of the BigLaw love/hate spectrum. I don't love it, that's for sure. But I also recognize we have it a lot better than most.

However, I see this all-or-nothing line of thinking all the time and it makes no sense to me. People talk like if you aren't in law/finance/medicine you can't make a decent living in America.

Consider that people in enterprise tech sales make more than most biglaw attorneys, and they practically don't think about work after 6:30pm or anytime after 5 on a Friday. Weekend work? lol.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-sal ... ies-2015-7

Obviously, the vast majority of lawyers would be terrible at that job...

[Aergia]

This has been a very provocative thread... However shitty OP's life might be, it can't be half as bad as he'd have it on the other side of the wealth divide. Too many people I grew up with are now addicted to opioids and/or working for near-minimum wage, if they are employed at all. Not a good life. Some middle ground would be nice, but tbh, I feel like anyone making a decent living in the year 2017 should be grateful. As the wise and powerful Kanye once said, "Havin' money's not everything, not havin' it is."

I tend to fall somewhere in the middle of the BigLaw love/hate spectrum. I don't love it, that's for sure. But I also recognize we have it a lot better than most.

However, I see this all-or-nothing line of thinking all the time and it makes no sense to me. People talk like if you aren't in law/finance/medicine you can't make a decent living in America.

Consider that people in enterprise tech sales make more than most biglaw attorneys, and they practically don't think about work after 6:30pm or anytime after 5 on a Friday. Weekend work? lol.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-sal ... ies-2015-7

Obviously, the vast majority of lawyers would be terrible at that job...

Idk anything about enterprise sales or whether that article is accurate, but even if it isn't, the "other people have it worse" argument is bullshit. Your wellbeing isn't like valuing a company..there are things most humans find intrinsically shitty regardless of what others are feeling or how much others are making. I know immigrants who have literally escaped genocide, and they still complain about the psychological toll of toxic work environments in corporate america. Yes, one situation has far worse consequences than the other, but our brains are hardwired to focus on current pain/anxiety, not consult the fucking global pain charts. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to find some perspective now and then. But someone making good money =/= no right to complain.

[Wild Card]

WTF?

Do you work at Cadwalader?

[Wonnker]

I wasn't trying to say that OP has no right to complain or that there aren't other professions that would afford him better work-life balance at a living wage. I've been under severe financial stress before, unable to make ends meet, and I've worked in toxic environments where I could at least pay the bills; I'll take the latter every time, and when work makes me miserable, I at least take some solace in knowing that I have a bed to sleep in and food on the table. Not saying that OP should shut up and be happy with what he's got, and I apologize if it came off that way, but rather that his mental well-being might improve by taking a minute now and then to reflect on all the positives in his life. OP said he has a family, and he has clearly been successful in his providing for them. At the end of the day, that is his primary responsibility (imo). Focusing on that can make all the day-to-day work bullshit a little more tolerable.

That being said, if OP's biglaw job is truly soul-crushing, then he should look for something better. Thankfully, his pedigree should give him options that a lot of working-class people just don't have.