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There hasn't been much talk about Boies on this forum lately. Anyone have good info on hours & comp and differences between the offices (mainly NYC vs the DC and NY area offices), the culture, and what will happen when David Boies leaves? Looking for some good info ahead of callback next week.

Anyone?

My vague impression from interviewing there many years ago is that the hours are insane, even by biglaw standards. It's a true workaholic firm. So maybe the bonuses are higher?

Anonymous User wrote:My vague impression from interviewing there many years ago is that the hours are insane, even by biglaw standards. It's a true workaholic firm. So maybe the bonuses are higher?

Its david boises firm after all

Don't know this is accurate (preparing for a callback myself) but one thing I've read in several places is that it's one of those firms where the hours are up to you in that salary isn't lockstep. If you work below whatever the goal is (1850 or whatever) you get paid below market, if you work well above, you get good bonuses. I've read stories about people just choosing to work below market hours and it being totally fine with the firm because they're not paying you for what you're not working.

Anonymous User wrote:My vague impression from interviewing there many years ago is that the hours are insane, even by biglaw standards. It's a true workaholic firm. So maybe the bonuses are higher?

The biggest difference, besides an above-market starting salary and very high average billables, is the ability of associates to tie their bonuses to the outcome of a contingency fee-funded matter.
http://abovethelaw.com/2016/12/associat ... rs-bounty/

Anonymous User wrote:There hasn't been much talk about Boies on this forum lately. Anyone have good info on hours & comp and differences between the offices (mainly NYC vs the DC and NY area offices), the culture, and what will happen when David Boies leaves? Looking for some good info ahead of callback next week.

The base compensation for associates is a little above market. The real difference for comp is that your bonus is tied to what you bill. In general, if you are working average hours (for Biglaw) you are going to be earning a market bonus or better. If you have a busy year, you can do better than that. That said, the gap between Boies and other firms has narrowed some in the past few years. The main remaining difference is that the system means that if you're taking on extra work and someone else is taking a lighter workload, you're getting paid more and they're (usually choosing) to get paid less. Nobody is going to pretend that Boies is a lifestyle firm, but that does reduce some of the tension and side-eyeing I've seen at other firms where people realize that the next guy over is getting the same or basically the same bonus for less work.

Hours vary among offices, the types of cases you work on, and who you work with. (I think this is more true across firms than a lot of folks realize.) NYC tends to be more demanding than DC, for example. An fairly standard commercial lit case is going to have different deadlines and expectations than a case that's in the headlines or a case that's a major issue for the client. Some partners staff cases very leanly, which can be tough for your hours but great for experience. Another issue is that until you become pretty senior, there is very little non-billable work expected of you: a few summer events, a few attorney lunches, and the annual firm meeting is generally about it. I have friends at other firms where it seems like they have 100+ hours/year on mandatory non-billables (though maybe I'm wrong). Overall I think it's fair to say that hours are a bit above market, but I don't think the "workaholic" reputation is accurate anymore.

It's hard to predict what will happen when Boies steps down, but there are a lot of other senior partners bringing in business, leading major cases, and anchoring key client relationships. It's not entirely accurate, but one way to get a sense for this if you're doing a call back is to ask people about the cases they're on (or look through some publicly reported cases you think are interesting) and then see who's on the papers.

Anonymous User wrote:Don't know this is accurate (preparing for a callback myself) but one thing I've read in several places is that it's one of those firms where the hours are up to you in that salary isn't lockstep. If you work below whatever the goal is (1850 or whatever) you get paid below market, if you work well above, you get good bonuses. I've read stories about people just choosing to work below market hours and it being totally fine with the firm because they're not paying you for what you're not working.

This is right, but there are limits to the last part. If you have a super busy year and then want to scale back for a while afterwards that's almost certainly fine. (And will probably be encouraged). If you establish yourself and then scale back for a while because you have a new kid, fine. If you just want to keep your hours around average that's probably something you can accomplish, depending on how busy your office is. It's not like you have a free ticket to say 'no thanks, I only want to bill 150/month' if everyone else in the office is way past that. There's flexibility, but within reason.

Anonymous User wrote:NYC tends to be more demanding than DC, for example.

Can you speak to this a little more? I'm interviewing for the DC office, and I'd love to know what the general hours for lit associates are for Boies in DC. I've heard everything from "You can bill as little as you want and get by," to "You'll never go home, but you'll get ridiculous bonuses to make up for it."

I seem to remember, anecdotally, that several people I spoke to after/during a callback had billed above 2300 that year.

Is the structure of their summer program similar to Susman's (4 weeks) or more traditional (full summer)?

Anonymous User wrote:Is the structure of their summer program similar to Susman's (4 weeks) or more traditional (full summer)?

Full summer.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm interviewing for the DC office, and I'd love to know what the general hours for lit associates are for Boies in DC. I've heard everything from "You can bill as little as you want and get by," to "You'll never go home, but you'll get ridiculous bonuses to make up for it."

Whoever made the "you'll never go home" comment might not actually work in the DC office, or at least could be new there. Associates rarely stay late. Sure, they'll keep checking email after leaving and often work late from home, but hardly anyone hangs around after 6:30pm. As far as hours go, it's hard to say what's typical because there's so much variability among associates in a given year, and even for a given associate year-to-year. My sense is that there's a clustering in the 2100-2300 range, with some billing much more on account of a big trial etc.

Anonymous User wrote:Don't know this is accurate (preparing for a callback myself) but one thing I've read in several places is that it's one of those firms where the hours are up to you in that salary isn't lockstep. If you work below whatever the goal is (1850 or whatever) you get paid below market, if you work well above, you get good bonuses. I've read stories about people just choosing to work below market hours and it being totally fine with the firm because they're not paying you for what you're not working.

Unless you've taken the bet on a contingency case, your hours would have to be very low to make your total compensation fall below Cravath. Even 1850 hours could fetch market comp (I've seen examples of above-market bonuses for below 2000 hours). And the financial upside of billing far above 2300 or working on a contingency case with a substantial recovery can be huge.

Anonymous User wrote:If you have a super busy year and then want to scale back for a while afterwards that's almost certainly fine. (And will probably be encouraged). If you establish yourself and then scale back for a while because you have a new kid, fine. If you just want to keep your hours around average that's probably something you can accomplish, depending on how busy your office is. It's not like you have a free ticket to say 'no thanks, I only want to bill 150/month' if everyone else in the office is way past that. There's flexibility, but within reason.

All of that is generally right. Your biggest lever for managing your workload is choosing whether to join another matter. If you've finished a trial, had a baby, or even just want to maintain your current workflow, then you can decline to join other matters and if approached politely say you're at capacity. That does get harder if most other associates have been working much more than you and there are still staffing needs.

I know Boies has a reputation of only wanting to hire from the top 10% of the class at T14 law schools. Is this still true? Do you think the criteria is as strict for their offices in smaller cities?

Anonymous User wrote:I know Boies has a reputation of only wanting to hire from the top 10% of the class at T14 law schools. Is this still true? Do you think the criteria is as strict for their offices in smaller cities?

This definitely doesn't hold across the firm's South Florida offices.

Anonymous User wrote:I know Boies has a reputation of only wanting to hire from the top 10% of the class at T14 law schools. Is this still true? Do you think the criteria is as strict for their offices in smaller cities?

Boies is competitive to get, but the hiring criteria don't have an arbitrary cut-off like this. I don't work there, but I have two friends who do -- one in DC and one in NYC -- and neither of them was top 10%.

There's a summer in a Cali Boies office who transferred from WUSTL -> T14. He wasn't top 10% I don't think, and WUSTL isn't even a T14.

more info on differences between NY and DC office would be helpful. What is the attorney count for each office? How does the work differ? Where is the biggest class of associates? I can't seem to find this information on NALP.

be self sufficient, dude. the firm has a website with all or almost all of that information. nalp isn't the only source.

Anonymous User wrote:There's a summer in a Cali Boies office who transferred from WUSTL -> T14. He wasn't top 10% I don't think, and WUSTL isn't even a T14.

Counterpoint: I transferred from WUSTL to HYS and was basically ignored during by screener for NYC Boies. Was the only interview I had where I felt that I was immediately eliminated from contention before I even walked in the room.

Based on the hours I've heard about for the NY office - sounds like I dodged a bullet.

I got a Boies NY callback with 3 Hs at Harvard FWIW. They're not super grade selective but it's a relatively small firm

Anonymous User wrote:Don't know this is accurate (preparing for a callback myself) but one thing I've read in several places is that it's one of those firms where the hours are up to you in that salary isn't lockstep. If you work below whatever the goal is (1850 or whatever) you get paid below market, if you work well above, you get good bonuses. I've read stories about people just choosing to work below market hours and it being totally fine with the firm because they're not paying you for what you're not working.

Hahah, I don't know if "the hours are up you" is the right way to put. I don't have any experience with Boies Schiller, but I doubt that many associates are billing below 1850, and I highly doubt that partners are letting their associates "choose" to work below market hours when there is work to be done.

nevermind

I know someone who worked there. He said that 3,000 hours a year was very normal at Boies. At our big law firm (Nyc) 3,000 hours is being one of the top 5-10 billers in a 200 attorney office.