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Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:09 am
by Anonymous User
Quick question on massmailing:

When we do so, should/could we also send the application materials to an alum at the firm?
Not getting any confirmation/response from some of the recruiters is making me worried that they didn't open/upload it.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:30 am
by Nagster5
I would not just cold email a random alum with your app. If you know the person than it's fine to ask if they'd be willing to forward your stuff to recruiting.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:12 am
by Anonymous User
Do not cold email your resume to a lawyer at the firm. If you want to chat and talk/have coffee or lunch that's fine, but if you just send me your resume I'll at the very least trash it without reading it if I don't decide to flag recruiting about your poor judgment as well.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:18 am
by UVA2B
Anonymous User wrote:Do not cold email your resume to a lawyer at the firm. If you want to chat and talk/have coffee or lunch that's fine, but if you just send me your resume I'll at the very least trash it without reading it if I don't decide to flag recruiting about your poor judgment as well.
I get the poor judgment thing, but this just seems unnecessary.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:01 am
by Anonymous User
UVA2B wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Do not cold email your resume to a lawyer at the firm. If you want to chat and talk/have coffee or lunch that's fine, but if you just send me your resume I'll at the very least trash it without reading it if I don't decide to flag recruiting about your poor judgment as well.
I get the poor judgment thing, but this just seems unnecessary.
I don't want to work with tryhard dumbasses.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:59 pm
by se7en
Anonymous User wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Do not cold email your resume to a lawyer at the firm. If you want to chat and talk/have coffee or lunch that's fine, but if you just send me your resume I'll at the very least trash it without reading it if I don't decide to flag recruiting about your poor judgment as well.
I get the poor judgment thing, but this just seems unnecessary.
I don't want to work with tryhard dumbasses.
^ this person is an asshole - there are some people like this.

I got my current job (midlaw) through a cold-email I sent to a partner.

If I received a (very well-tailored) cold e-mail from an alumni, I would definitely take a look and at least acknowledge that I received it, and probably pass it on to recruiting (though it would likely end up not making a difference if the person applied to the HR himself - I would only actually go to bat for someone I personally know).

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:10 pm
by cron1834
There's a pretty big difference between emailing a partner with hiring pull and emailing a random associate you don't know. The former is okay, although I'd still suggest you go directly to recruiting if there's a known or implied protocol to do so. The latter is indeed pretty dumb.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:39 pm
by Anonymous User
se7en wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Do not cold email your resume to a lawyer at the firm. If you want to chat and talk/have coffee or lunch that's fine, but if you just send me your resume I'll at the very least trash it without reading it if I don't decide to flag recruiting about your poor judgment as well.
I get the poor judgment thing, but this just seems unnecessary.
I don't want to work with tryhard dumbasses.
^ this person is an asshole - there are some people like this.

I got my current job (midlaw) through a cold-email I sent to a partner.

If I received a (very well-tailored) cold e-mail from an alumni, I would definitely take a look and at least acknowledge that I received it, and probably pass it on to recruiting (though it would likely end up not making a difference if the person applied to the HR himself - I would only actually go to bat for someone I personally know).
I, too, got my biglaw job through a cold email I sent a partner alum.

I try to be very savvy about it and I made sure my email and resume were both very presentable. I got two interviews using this method. I had two biglaw alumni mentors who actually recommended I do this, so I overcame my fear/embarrassment of doing so and went ahead and did it. It resulted in two interviews and two offers.

I would never send my resume to an associate though. While they can forward your resume to recruiting (I've done this), it's unlikely to result in anything.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:44 pm
by unlicensedpotato
Anonymous User wrote:
I, too, got my biglaw job through a cold email I sent a partner alum.

I try to be very savvy about it and I made sure my email and resume were both very presentable. I got two interviews using this method. I had two biglaw alumni mentors who actually recommended I do this, so I overcame my fear/embarrassment of doing so and went ahead and did it. It resulted in two interviews and two offers.

I would never send my resume to an associate though. While they can forward your resume to recruiting (I've done this), it's unlikely to result in anything.
I haven't actually done this, but my impression is that an applicant whose resume is forwarded to recruiting by an associate has an advantage over a resume sent directly by the applicant to recruiting, all else equal.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:48 pm
by Anonymous User
unlicensedpotato wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
I, too, got my biglaw job through a cold email I sent a partner alum.

I try to be very savvy about it and I made sure my email and resume were both very presentable. I got two interviews using this method. I had two biglaw alumni mentors who actually recommended I do this, so I overcame my fear/embarrassment of doing so and went ahead and did it. It resulted in two interviews and two offers.

I would never send my resume to an associate though. While they can forward your resume to recruiting (I've done this), it's unlikely to result in anything.
I haven't actually done this, but my impression is that an applicant whose resume is forwarded to recruiting by an associate has an advantage over a resume sent directly by the applicant to recruiting, all else equal.
I'm the quoted anon.

That's fair - perhaps HR at some firms flag resumes forwarded by associates in some way.

The difference when a partner takes an interest in your resume though is that it gets acted on very fast and their recommendation will carry you far (even through interviews - my interviewers seemed to defer to the partner's judgment, at least it seemed that way).

By contrast HR seemed to sort of shrug both times I forwarded a resume. But at least it guarantees someone notices your resume.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:34 pm
by unlicensedpotato
Anonymous User wrote:
I'm the quoted anon.

That's fair - perhaps HR at some firms flag resumes forwarded by associates in some way.

The difference when a partner takes an interest in your resume though is that it gets acted on very fast and their recommendation will carry you far (even through interviews - my interviewers seemed to defer to the partner's judgment, at least it seemed that way).

By contrast HR seemed to sort of shrug both times I forwarded a resume. But at least it guarantees someone notices your resume.
Completely agree, I'm sure that a partner forwarding is night and day different.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:30 pm
by lolwat
Vast majority of interviews I've had came from mailing my resume to a partner at the firm. In fact, that's the case with the two last interviews I got and the firm I'm at right now. Boutique, though. But even at bigger firms with established recruiting procedures, I had plenty of luck mailing to either the person with the "hiring partner" or "managing partner" title. Even if I had zero connection with that partner and the firm has a recruiting department. It's been many years, but if I had to give my best estimate, 'd say probably 50% of the time they never respond to my e-mail (whether it got lost or if they affirmatively TRASHED it and TRASHED me to recruiting like anon several posts above would), 40% of the time I get an e-mail back saying they're not hiring but why don't we grab coffee if I'm in the area or whatever, and 10% of the time I ended up with some sort of e-mail from recruiting asking me to set up an interview.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:29 pm
by Anonymous User
lolwat wrote:Vast majority of interviews I've had came from mailing my resume to a partner at the firm. In fact, that's the case with the two last interviews I got and the firm I'm at right now. Boutique, though. But even at bigger firms with established recruiting procedures, I had plenty of luck mailing to either the person with the "hiring partner" or "managing partner" title. Even if I had zero connection with that partner and the firm has a recruiting department. It's been many years, but if I had to give my best estimate, 'd say probably 50% of the time they never respond to my e-mail (whether it got lost or if they affirmatively TRASHED it and TRASHED me to recruiting like anon several posts above would), 40% of the time I get an e-mail back saying they're not hiring but why don't we grab coffee if I'm in the area or whatever, and 10% of the time I ended up with some sort of e-mail from recruiting asking me to set up an interview.
Do you think its good practice to send a follow-up e-mail in a few weeks if you reach out to a partner but they don't respond?

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:20 pm
by lolwat
Anonymous User wrote:
lolwat wrote:Vast majority of interviews I've had came from mailing my resume to a partner at the firm. In fact, that's the case with the two last interviews I got and the firm I'm at right now. Boutique, though. But even at bigger firms with established recruiting procedures, I had plenty of luck mailing to either the person with the "hiring partner" or "managing partner" title. Even if I had zero connection with that partner and the firm has a recruiting department. It's been many years, but if I had to give my best estimate, 'd say probably 50% of the time they never respond to my e-mail (whether it got lost or if they affirmatively TRASHED it and TRASHED me to recruiting like anon several posts above would), 40% of the time I get an e-mail back saying they're not hiring but why don't we grab coffee if I'm in the area or whatever, and 10% of the time I ended up with some sort of e-mail from recruiting asking me to set up an interview.
Do you think its good practice to send a follow-up e-mail in a few weeks if you reach out to a partner but they don't respond?
IMO. One follow-up e-mail can't hurt you any more than the first one. It will either (1) get ignored again because partner is still too busy; (2) get trashed again (and get you trashed to recruiting) if partner's a dick like the one anon above in this thread; or (3) get you some sort of response, whether good or bad. I would not follow up with a third e-mail or a phone call though... that starts getting a bit over the top for somebody you don't know.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:44 am
by s1m4
Do partners seriously blacklist applicants for reaching out (in a non-annoying manner) about a position? What if it is a genuine alumni student trying to reach out and build his network? Does anyone have personal anecdotes of this happening?

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:16 am
by Anonymous User
s1m4 wrote:Do partners seriously blacklist applicants for reaching out (in a non-annoying manner) about a position? What if it is a genuine alumni student trying to reach out and build his network? Does anyone have personal anecdotes of this happening?
Here's the thing - and it may seem unfair, but...

Unless you have a prior relationship with the person (and even if you do), we know you're reaching out for a job/networking. And that's okay. But in my mind, it comes down to "take me to dinner first before you pull your dick out." I know that a couple of emails down the road your CL/resume are going to be attached. But why would I forward you to recruiting if I know nothing about you? You want to chat and ask me about practice? Sure. You want to go out to coffee/lunch/happy hour? I would be glad to.

Just cold emailing a resume? Screw that. I don't know you.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:10 am
by TTTwinCities
I think a lot of this depends on the attorney's role at the firm. If the person is not involved in recruitment/management at all, just cold emailing a resume may come off as pushy. However, if the person is involved in recruiting, a solid resume appearing in their inbox can make their job much easier. As a former recruiter (before law school), getting a random email from a qualified candidate was the best thing ever. Active recruiting is an absolute time suck of phone tag and disappointment.

Generally, I think it is fine to email an alum for a coffee/lunch conversation just to network.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:14 am
by Anonymous User
TTTwinCities wrote:I think a lot of this depends on the attorney's role at the firm. If the person is not involved in recruitment/management at all, just cold emailing a resume may come off as pushy. However, if the person is involved in recruiting, a solid resume appearing in their inbox can make their job much easier. As a former recruiter (before law school), getting a random email from a qualified candidate was the best thing ever. Active recruiting is an absolute time suck of phone tag and disappointment.

Generally, I think it is fine to email an alum for a coffee/lunch conversation just to network.
Douchey anon from above -

I'd go even further. I would take coffee/lunch from anyone - you don't have to be an alum (although it makes the introduction easier). But if you're just someone interested in my practice group and figure I'm a junior guy who you could have a more laid back conversation with than with a partner, or just because I'm the first name you clicked on when going through the website - all of that is fine. I will have lunch/coffee with anyone (time permitting). And if I like you, I'll go to bat for you a bit - maybe shoot the resume up to a partner to send to recruiting or something. But cold emailing a resume just comes off very wrong to me.

And yeah - it's probably different when someone is actively on the website as a recruiter of some sort (or on the hiring committee or anything else) versus a person who has no such title/identifier.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:25 pm
by s1m4
Thanks - based on your guys' perspective, if I'm interested in a practice group, and I reach out to an alum and say [more professionally] "hey I love your practice group, and I saw there is a position open - would it be OK to meet up and talk about the position with you before I apply?" Would that piss you off? [keeping in mind you have never seen or heard of me before, and I am just a nice guy shooting you that e-mail - I may also attach my resume to that e-mail so you know a bit about my background before you meet me].

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:57 pm
by Anonymous User
as a more general question, how can you be sure that the firm actually received your application? is there a way to be sure?

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:48 pm
by NonTradHealthLaw
s1m4 wrote:Thanks - based on your guys' perspective, if I'm interested in a practice group, and I reach out to an alum and say [more professionally] "hey I love your practice group, and I saw there is a position open - would it be OK to meet up and talk about the position with you before I apply?" Would that piss you off? [keeping in mind you have never seen or heard of me before, and I am just a nice guy shooting you that e-mail - I may also attach my resume to that e-mail so you know a bit about my background before you meet me].
This is an excellent approach as a lateral and doesn't need to be done with a resume. I might look askance if it came from a student because practice groups don't have openings for greenhorns (generally). Your email better really catch my eye in that case or I'm 50/50 about replying, depending on my crankiness.

Others may differ, but I'm not great about replying to "let's get coffee" emails sent on Mondays (high email traffic) or Fridays (idgaf).

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:24 pm
by michaelscotch99
Anonymous User wrote:
s1m4 wrote:Do partners seriously blacklist applicants for reaching out (in a non-annoying manner) about a position? What if it is a genuine alumni student trying to reach out and build his network? Does anyone have personal anecdotes of this happening?
Here's the thing - and it may seem unfair, but...

Unless you have a prior relationship with the person (and even if you do), we know you're reaching out for a job/networking. And that's okay. But in my mind, it comes down to "take me to dinner first before you pull your dick out." I know that a couple of emails down the road your CL/resume are going to be attached. But why would I forward you to recruiting if I know nothing about you? You want to chat and ask me about practice? Sure. You want to go out to coffee/lunch/happy hour? I would be glad to.

Just cold emailing a resume? Screw that. I don't know you.
What happened in your life that made you take things so personally?

Seriously though I know 3 people who got offers at biglaw by cold-emailing partners.

I've been told by some partners they'd rather get to the point and have people email a resume, rather then waste their time with the whole "let's schedule a time for coffee/chat while we both pretend we don't know what you want".

So, let's say I take this advice. Just because it's not your personal preference you should blacklist them?

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:56 pm
by Anonymous User
michaelscotch99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
s1m4 wrote:Do partners seriously blacklist applicants for reaching out (in a non-annoying manner) about a position? What if it is a genuine alumni student trying to reach out and build his network? Does anyone have personal anecdotes of this happening?
Here's the thing - and it may seem unfair, but...

Unless you have a prior relationship with the person (and even if you do), we know you're reaching out for a job/networking. And that's okay. But in my mind, it comes down to "take me to dinner first before you pull your dick out." I know that a couple of emails down the road your CL/resume are going to be attached. But why would I forward you to recruiting if I know nothing about you? You want to chat and ask me about practice? Sure. You want to go out to coffee/lunch/happy hour? I would be glad to.

Just cold emailing a resume? Screw that. I don't know you.


What happened in your life that made you take things so personally?

Seriously though I know 3 people who got offers at biglaw by cold-emailing partners.

I've been told by some partners they'd rather get to the point and have people email a resume, rather then waste their time with the whole "let's schedule a time for coffee/chat while we both pretend we don't know what you want".

So, let's say I take this advice. Just because it's not your personal preference you should blacklist them?
I just got my biglaw job this way (cold emailing a resume to a partner with hiring power). I set up numerous coffee chats with alums - nothing, but lots of well wishes, advice, and connections. My first 2 cold resume emails resulted in interviews (and offers).

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:06 pm
by cron1834
That's great and all, but I don't think anyone ITT is saying it's somehow wrong to email a resume to a hiring partner. The original question doesn't really distinguish between doing this and emailing it to a random associate just because they went to your school. I think we've seen some evidence here that the latter is probably neutral at best and harmful at worst.

Re: Massmailing to recruiters v. to attorneys

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:09 pm
by lolwat
cron1834 wrote:That's great and all, but I don't think anyone ITT is saying it's somehow wrong to email a resume to a hiring partner. The original question doesn't really distinguish between doing this and emailing it to a random associate just because they went to your school. I think we've seen some evidence here that the latter is probably neutral at best and harmful at worst.
The original question just references "an alum," in which case you've got several at least possibilities:

Alum hiring/managing partner (Yes)
Alum partner (probably)
Alum non-partner, e.g., of counsel/associate (perhaps err on the side of no)

Then, for sake of discussion, because why must we always limit a thread only to the very narrow question asked by the OP?:

Non-alum hiring partner (Yes)
Non-alum partner (no)
Non-alum associate (no)