Top Law Schools

I work at a top firm and one of the first-years in my office is being fired. I don't know how much time the firm is giving this person (let's say it's a guy) to find another position, but I expect it won't be very long. I understand the firm's decision and agree that it doesn't make sense to keep him around, but I also think the associate is not a bad person and would like to give him some advice. He got excellent grades from a top school.

I think his main problems are (i) a lack of basic social skills and (ii) ignorance as to how to function in a corporate setting (i.e. meet deadlines, respond to messages, stay late when necessary, be polite to subordinates, take ownership of work, etc). I can give him advice on (ii), but (i) is harder to convey. I'd also like to give him some advice on what jobs are out there for someone in his position because I think he could spin his time at our firm in a way that isn't too damaging to his career. Any ideas?

If he can fix (ii), then (i) doesn't matter as much. You can't change his personality. If he regularly does something egregious, point that out. Otherwise leave it alone. Also, is this really your place? I think it sounds condescending, but maybe you also lack social skills so go ahead.

It sounds like they just want to give the person some advice on how to do better in the future. Not sure why it's condescending to want to tell someone about something they've noticed that's a problem. Social skills often actually do matter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but OP, you aren't a fellow first year, right? If you are, I understand Nebby's point. But if you are more senior and feel bad for the guy, I totally understand where you are coming from. Even if you don't correct the person's personality or even their other issues, there is no shame in giving them some advice.

Take him out for a drink and just ask him if he'd like some feedback on how to do well the next time around. If he says no, just finish the drinks. If he says yes, just fire away.

That's a good point. Yes, I'm significantly senior to this lawyer. Yeah, I think asking him if he wants advice is a polite way to open the conversation. I want to help him because even if he screwed up a lot, law firms can be punishing and make you feel awful about yourself (even when you are doing a good job). The guy must be feeling like shit.

But as bad as things may seem, I genuinely believe he could spin the experience in a way that puts his career on track somewhere. As long as he addresses some key areas.

I think people often reach a point in life where their friends/colleagues stop trying to correct their behavior and accept it as a given. And then they wonder why they aren't getting anywhere. I'd like to think people can change if they are made aware of the issue.

My comments were under the assumption you were also a first year.

Damn... didn't think it was possible to get fired in your first year at a top firm. I should really stop telling people that it's impossible.

glitched wrote:Damn... didn't think it was possible to get fired in your first year at a top firm. I should really stop telling people that it's impossible.

Of course it was always possible, but in most cases you have to be abysmal...like the associate here, consistently blowing deadlines.

Clytemnestra3 wrote:That's a good point. Yes, I'm significantly senior to this lawyer. Yeah, I think asking him if he wants advice is a polite way to open the conversation. I want to help him because even if he screwed up a lot, law firms can be punishing and make you feel awful about yourself (even when you are doing a good job). The guy must be feeling like shit.

But as bad as things may seem, I genuinely believe he could spin the experience in a way that puts his career on track somewhere. As long as he addresses some key areas.

I think people often reach a point in life where their friends/colleagues stop trying to correct their behavior and accept it as a given. And then they wonder why they aren't getting anywhere. I'd like to think people can change if they are made aware of the issue.

To clarify, is this person a stub or someone that's been at the firm like 14 months and is about to become a second yr

The associate would be turning a second year. Been with us over a year.

Be as supportive as you can. Maybe the person will "get it" in a different practice group. Be honest as you feel comfortable with, but don't put yourself at risk.

What do you think the guy could do to salvage his reputation?

And how often have you seen first years get fired? Does it have to be this egregious?

Firm's will be much more flexible with you if they think you are well liked and have good social skills. Often they will give you a softer landing.

Being a problem maker is the issue.

First WSGR fires someone for failing the bar, now this. What has the world come to.

Haha is there confirmation that this is WSGR?

This is the first time I've heard of a first-year being fired in our firm. I don't think this person's reputation is ruined; it's just ruined within our firm. No first-year is important enough for lawyers to go spreading stories of his or her poor performance to lawyers in other firms. Maybe if the associate had messed up in a way that was really hilarious that story would get around the market and ruin a reputation, but that's not the case here.

People get fired for all sorts of reasons at all levels. In this case, the fault lay with the associate, but plenty of associates who are reasonably good at their jobs (or show the potential to be) get fired sometimes for no other reason than that the partner in charge doesn't like them or they don't get along well with the lawyers they work with.

I don't think that's necessarily wrong. Teams work best when all members get along and so it's not unreasonable for a firm to get rid of someone who is not a good fit. Law students should do their best to choose firms/practice areas with people they think they will click with and to put some effort into cultivating those relationships. But students are going to make mistakes and practice groups can turnover quickly so I also think firms should be generous and kind to associates when it doesn't work out and try to help them land in a place better suited to them. That's what I'd like to try to do here.

you're a good person OP

Is roughly 15 months an egregiously short period of time to spend at a firm?

MCFC wrote:Is roughly 15 months an egregiously short period of time to spend at a firm?

It is long enough that someone can/will hire you as a lateral, if that's the question.

Anonymous User wrote:

MCFC wrote:Is roughly 15 months an egregiously short period of time to spend at a firm?

It is long enough that someone can/will hire you as a lateral, if that's the question.

Yeah, I just started and don't have very much experience in big law, but from the leaving the firm announcements I've seen, it doesn't seem totally out of the ordinary. Which makes me think it's not a massive red flag to employers such that you have to spin it really really hard. But I could be totally off base of course.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:It sounds like they just want to give the person some advice on how to do better in the future. Not sure why it's condescending to want to tell someone about something they've noticed that's a problem. Social skills often actually do matter.

Exactly. I don't think what OP wants to do is condescending at all. Another poor comment by Nebby. Hopefully OP ignores.

MCFC wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

MCFC wrote:Is roughly 15 months an egregiously short period of time to spend at a firm?

It is long enough that someone can/will hire you as a lateral, if that's the question.

Yeah, I just started and don't have very much experience in big law, but from the leaving the firm announcements I've seen, it doesn't seem totally out of the ordinary. Which makes me think it's not a massive red flag to employers such that you have to spin it really really hard. But I could be totally off base of course.

This is true, but of course the fired associate will have to up his game at his next employer. Leaving your first firm in 15 months isn't that weird, but laterals get less leeway for being bad at their jobs, and looking for a third job eight months from now would be a kiss-of-death situation.

Anyway, while social skills are definitely an issue, they aren't *the* issue (unless he did something really egregious that goes beyond just bad social skills). You don't get fired for bad social skills until you're a fifth/sixth year and they tell you you're not going to make partner because you're too awkward to put in front of clients. So the best advice you can give him is about the work and not give him the internalized excuse of blaming it on his social skills.

Just wondering, if a junior associate was fired because of partners leaving and significant over-hiring, how should this associate tell the story when looking for a new job?

MCFC wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

MCFC wrote:Is roughly 15 months an egregiously short period of time to spend at a firm?

It is long enough that someone can/will hire you as a lateral, if that's the question.

Yeah, I just started and don't have very much experience in big law, but from the leaving the firm announcements I've seen, it doesn't seem totally out of the ordinary. Which makes me think it's not a massive red flag to employers such that you have to spin it really really hard. But I could be totally off base of course.

If you want to lateral that early on you need a good story, to be upbeat, and to have some patience. It's early enough to lateral, but if you're getting pushed out it still may be a kiss of death. A big part of lateralling early is coming across as patient and excited about the work, without being too nervous about the thing. Someone who got pushed out will have a much harder time doing well in that process.