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Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:48 am
by Anonymous User
Almost everyone I talked with at these firms sounded pessimistic about their exit opps. What are typical exit opps from these places? What are considered good exit opps? Do most associates eventually go in-house at banks and F500 corporations or to lower ranked firms? Is switching to top bulge bracket/elite boutique investment banks in finance roles realist options for associates who didn't have top-notch deal experience, didn't attend HYS or had JD/MBAs from Penn/Columbia, didn't attend Ivy UG, and don't have prior finance experience (the few associates who switched to finance and had public Linkedin profiles seemed to have worked at WLRK/S&C/Cravath/Skadden, though it seems that the move is very rare even from these firms)?
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:22 pm
by RaceJudicata
Your writing skills suggest that you don't work at any of these firms.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:38 pm
by Winter is Coming
Wild.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:06 pm
by jkpolk
Anonymous User wrote:Almost everyone I talked with at these firms sounded pessimistic about their exit opps. What are typical exit opps from these places? What are considered good exit opps? Do most associates eventually go in-house at banks and F500 corporations or to lower ranked firms? Is switching to top bulge bracket/elite boutique investment banks in finance roles realist options for associates who didn't have top-notch deal experience, didn't attend HYS or had JD/MBAs from Penn/Columbia, didn't attend Ivy UG, and don't have prior finance experience (the few associates who switched to finance and had public Linkedin profiles seemed to have worked at WLRK/S&C/Cravath/Skadden, though it seems that the move is very rare even from these firms)?
In house is common. Moving to another firm is common. I've seen a lot of people leave and no one with a generic background left for the positions you mention. Don't do law to backdoor finance.
A good exit option is a job that will make you happy. If that job is driving a school bus, that is a good exit option.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:35 pm
by Anonymous User
jkpolk wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Almost everyone I talked with at these firms sounded pessimistic about their exit opps. What are typical exit opps from these places? What are considered good exit opps? Do most associates eventually go in-house at banks and F500 corporations or to lower ranked firms? Is switching to top bulge bracket/elite boutique investment banks in finance roles realist options for associates who didn't have top-notch deal experience, didn't attend HYS or had JD/MBAs from Penn/Columbia, didn't attend Ivy UG, and don't have prior finance experience (the few associates who switched to finance and had public Linkedin profiles seemed to have worked at WLRK/S&C/Cravath/Skadden, though it seems that the move is very rare even from these firms)?
In house is common. Moving to another firm is common. I've seen a lot of people leave and no one with a generic background left for the positions you mention. Don't do law to backdoor finance.
A good exit option is a job that will make you happy. If that job is driving a school bus, that is a good exit option.
Agree with the above. Common exits are associate positions at other firms and assistant GC positions at banks/F500 corporations. I talked with a couple of Wachtell/Cravath/S&C associates who had options to switch to banking. They were at the top of their associate classes and had tough time deciding whether to switch (because they would have to rebuild their reputations from scratch). Both ended up switching to banking. Ironic that people with such options are ones with least reason to leave law firms.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:43 pm
by Nebby
The Grave
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:38 am
by Anonymous User
Wachtell and Cravath/S&C/ect are not attracting the same median candidate quality, nor are they offering the same returns (a Wachtell junior is making 50-70% more than those in his class year at firms like cravath and davis and sullcrom). Putting income aside, the Wachtell associates as a general matter are receiving more substantive opportunities than the other V5's. They will not only have the qualifications edge, but also the experience edge after a couple years on deals.
All this being said, even at Wachtell a true jump into finance right off the bat is rare.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:55 am
by FSK
Just do peter theil bro
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:07 am
by Anonymous User
I am a middle level at one of LW/STB/PW, practice in M&A and have friends at the OP mentioned firms. The brand name of the firm, whether it be one of my group or the WLRK/SC/C/SK group plus a corporate role will be enough to get you ib interviews for nonlawyer roles. Now getting the job is another matter. More people do it from WLRK/SC/C/SK but it is still a tiny group that make that jump.
A few other notes, yes an M&A associate at WLRK gets paid more and has a broader experience then an S&C or SK lawyer by the nature of the WRLK model (the Cravath folks do 18 month rotations I believe, which leads to broad experience and middle levels leading M&A deals that haven't worked on M&A previously - not fun).
If your want a non-lawyer role don't get a law degree or do but also get an MBA from a T10 school (not ideal but better then straight JD). This especially true if you attended a non-ib feeder UG.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:16 am
by SLS_AMG
Anonymous User wrote:I am a middle level at one of LW/STB/PW, practice in M&A and have friends at the OP mentioned firms. The brand name of the firm, whether it be one of my group or the WLRK/SC/C/SK group plus a corporate role will be enough to get you ib interviews for nonlawyer roles. Now getting the job is another matter. More people do it from WLRK/SC/C/SK but it is still a tiny group that make that jump.
A few other notes, yes an M&A associate at WLRK gets paid more and has a broader experience then an S&C or SK lawyer by the nature of the WRLK model (the Cravath folks do 18 month rotations I believe, which leads to broad experience and middle levels leading M&A deals that haven't worked on M&A previously - not fun).
If your want a non-lawyer role don't get a law degree or do but also get an MBA from a T10 school (not ideal but better then straight JD). This especially true if you attended a non-ib feeder UG.
Lol @ the egregious anti-STB trolling here. I love how Skadden is apparently Wachtell's peer while STB's M&A group is on par with Paul Weiss.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:24 pm
by dabigchina
SLS_AMG wrote:
Lol @ the egregious anti-STB trolling here. I love how Skadden is apparently Wachtell's peer while STB's M&A group is on par with Paul Weiss.
why is being on Paul Weiss's tier an egregious insult?
Is Paul Weiss even on a different tier?
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:40 pm
by v5junior
dabigchina wrote:SLS_AMG wrote:
Lol @ the egregious anti-STB trolling here. I love how Skadden is apparently Wachtell's peer while STB's M&A group is on par with Paul Weiss.
why is being on Paul Weiss's tier an egregious insult?
Is Paul Weiss even on a different tier?
Yes. IMO, It's WLRK/CSM, then remaining V5+STB. You can quibble about minor distinctions among those six firms and one or two others maybe, but per Chambers, PWs peers include Jones Day and Sidley Austin. Perfectly respectable firms, but definitely not the same caliber as the other firms being discussed in this thread.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:45 pm
by ArtistOfManliness
v5junior wrote:dabigchina wrote:SLS_AMG wrote:
Lol @ the egregious anti-STB trolling here. I love how Skadden is apparently Wachtell's peer while STB's M&A group is on par with Paul Weiss.
why is being on Paul Weiss's tier an egregious insult?
Is Paul Weiss even on a different tier?
Yes. IMO, It's WLRK/CSM, then remaining V5+STB. You can quibble about minor distinctions among those six firms and one or two others maybe, but per Chambers, PWs peers include Jones Day and Sidley Austin. Perfectly respectable firms, but definitely not the same caliber as the other firms being discussed in this thread.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:27 pm
by dabigchina
so where does Latham/KE stand then? Cleary? Debevoise?
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:03 pm
by v5junior
I think the least controversial metric is chambers (
www.chambersandpartners.com/12788/1437/editorial/5/1). League tables work too, but you have to check a number of sources over multiple years to get an accurate picture (all firms have up and down years and the methodologies vary), and you need to understand what they actually measure (deals that die before signing not included, non-principal representation is a weird thing, etc.).
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:07 pm
by dabigchina
That's interesting given the love that Cleary and Debevoise get around here.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:07 pm
by Nebby
v5junior wrote:dabigchina wrote:SLS_AMG wrote:
Lol @ the egregious anti-STB trolling here. I love how Skadden is apparently Wachtell's peer while STB's M&A group is on par with Paul Weiss.
why is being on Paul Weiss's tier an egregious insult?
Is Paul Weiss even on a different tier?
Yes. IMO, It's WLRK/CSM, then remaining V5+STB. You can quibble about minor distinctions among those six firms and one or two others maybe, but per Chambers, PWs peers include Jones Day and Sidley Austin. Perfectly respectable firms, but definitely not the same caliber as the other firms being discussed in this thread.
Lol
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:13 pm
by lawlorbust
dabigchina wrote:That's interesting given the love that Cleary and Debevoise get around here.
I don't think the consensus that these are fine firms is any at odds with the idea that they're not tier-1A general corp / M&A firms.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:36 pm
by Anonymous User
v5junior wrote:dabigchina wrote:SLS_AMG wrote:
Lol @ the egregious anti-STB trolling here. I love how Skadden is apparently Wachtell's peer while STB's M&A group is on par with Paul Weiss.
why is being on Paul Weiss's tier an egregious insult?
Is Paul Weiss even on a different tier?
Yes. IMO, It's WLRK/CSM, then remaining V5+STB. You can quibble about minor distinctions among those six firms and one or two others maybe, but per Chambers, PWs peers include Jones Day and Sidley Austin. Perfectly respectable firms, but definitely not the same caliber as the other firms being discussed in this thread.
Placing cravath with wachtell is absurd. Cravath is far more similar (and in terms of associate quality and general recognition indistinguishable) from sullcrom and davis polk than it is to wachtell.
Cravath bros want it to be v2, s&c bros want it to be 'the old v3', davis polk bros want it to be the posh four, simpson want it to be v5+stb, ect. The reality is except for wachtell, the rest of the new york elite firms are interchangeable to a large degree.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:17 pm
by v5junior
Anonymous User wrote:v5junior wrote:
Yes. IMO, It's WLRK/CSM, then remaining V5+STB. You can quibble about minor distinctions among those six firms and one or two others maybe, but per Chambers, PWs peers include Jones Day and Sidley Austin. Perfectly respectable firms, but definitely not the same caliber as the other firms being discussed in this thread.
Placing cravath with wachtell is absurd. Cravath is far more similar (and in terms of associate quality and general recognition indistinguishable) from sullcrom and davis polk than it is to wachtell.
Cravath bros want it to be v2, s&c bros want it to be 'the old v3', davis polk bros want it to be the posh four, simpson want it to be v5+stb, ect. The reality is except for wachtell, the rest of the new york elite firms are interchangeable to a large degree.
Okay man, I really don't have that much of an ax to grind here, but for whatever it's worth (read: nothing other than evidence that your vault info is outdated), CSM bros are v1 status now. In any event, I'm putting this in the "quibbl[ing] about minor distinctions" category.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:27 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:I am a middle level at one of LW/STB/PW, practice in M&A and have friends at the OP mentioned firms. The brand name of the firm, whether it be one of my group or the WLRK/SC/C/SK group plus a corporate role will be enough to get you ib interviews for nonlawyer roles. Now getting the job is another matter. More people do it from WLRK/SC/C/SK but it is still a tiny group that make that jump.
Are you planning on making a similar jump? Is it possible/common for associates at your level and firm to do so?
Anyone else have experience or thoughts on making a non-traditional jump from one of these top NY corp firms to banking, finance, consulting or other non-legal roles? Does UG, LS, and firm brand matter to the extent some have mentioned on here and elsewhere on the board?
I'm happy to be a bit more specific if anyone feels it may encourage more insight.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:38 pm
by Anonymous User
Is it more difficult to go from law firm --> non-legal role (finance, consulting, etc.) or from law school --> non-legal role?
Assume the individual from a law firm is at a ~V15 firm and the law school kid is coming from a bottom-half T14. I ask because I'm a 2L now, worked at a firm last year and am going back to another firm this summer. I really don't want to practice law long-term and am trying to figure the best path out. I have 1 year of consulting experience at a run-of-the-mill V50 consulting firm fwiw. ps ik, shouldn't have gone to law school. fuck me.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:52 pm
by nunumaster
Easier to go from your t6 -> banking/consulting than from your vault firm to banking/consulting if that's what you're asking.'
Edit: Just saw bottom half of t14. Idk depends on if banking/consulting recruits at your law school. That should be easy to find out.
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:40 pm
by Anonymous User
nunumaster wrote:Easier to go from your t6 -> banking/consulting than from your vault firm to banking/consulting if that's what you're asking.'
Edit: Just saw bottom half of t14. Idk depends on if banking/consulting recruits at your law school. That should be easy to find out.
Odds for someone in the bottom half at Y/S? Ivy UG, not HYP. Worked 1L and 2L summer at different v5s (not WLRK or CSM) and planning on joining one of them full-time next year. Better odds coming out of the firm or should I be trying to line something up ASAP as a 3L?
Re: Exit opps for corporate associates at Wachtell, S&C, Cravath, etc.
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:46 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:nunumaster wrote:Easier to go from your t6 -> banking/consulting than from your vault firm to banking/consulting if that's what you're asking.'
Edit: Just saw bottom half of t14. Idk depends on if banking/consulting recruits at your law school. That should be easy to find out.
Odds for someone in the bottom half at Y/S? Ivy UG, not HYP. Worked 1L and 2L summer at different v5s (not WLRK or CSM) and planning on joining one of them full-time next year. Better odds coming out of the firm or should I be trying to line something up ASAP as a 3L?
General feeling you'll see on these boards is that it's really hard to move from a legal position to non-legal business role. Did you already miss any OCI that consulting/ finance/ PE firms do at your school? Thought those places hired in the early fall.
This is probably the best thread on the topic:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=238993