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I recently accepted a government honors position. I gave them a verbal commitment, but haven't signed anything yet. Now, I have a new big law offer. I haven't decided which I would prefer, but am I even allowed to consider the new offer? I get that technically I can leave the honors program, but I believe that would bar me from ever working for the federal government again. Does that still apply if I haven't started yet?

Anonymous User wrote:I recently accepted a government honors position. I gave them a verbal commitment, but haven't signed anything yet. Now, I have a new big law offer. I haven't decided which I would prefer, but am I even allowed to consider the new offer? I get that technically I can leave the honors program, but I believe that would bar me from ever working for the federal government again. Does that still apply if I haven't started yet?

I doubt it. Your offer is still contingent on passing the background check, etc. anyways.

It won't officially bar you in any way, it will just burn bridges for you with that agency.

At-will. You can accept and renege whenever and for whatever reason (including no reasons). Only possible detriment is burning bridges with the agency, and anyone else that may find out about it.

It'll be less bad if you turn it down before you get agency people doing paperwork.

However, why would you turn the government job down?

Anonymous User wrote:At-will. You can accept and renege whenever and for whatever reason (including no reasons). Only possible detriment is burning bridges with the agency, and anyone else that may find out about it.

this.

OP here. I would only turn it down because of the money difference. Obviously, the federal agency would have a significant advantage in the work-life balance department. There are significant pros and cons to both.

Do you mind me asking what honors program?

Anonymous User wrote:Do you mind me asking what honors program?

As far as I know they haven't made a lot of offers this year, so I don't really want to say publicly. I will say it's not DOJ.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Do you mind me asking what honors program?

As far as I know they haven't made a lot of offers this year, so I don't really want to say publicly. I will say it's not DOJ.

Dang. I was hoping you would say it was not the DOL but thanks!

Why would you ever go to the firm over the honors program

You can always go to the firm after, but the honors program is one shot

jbagelboy wrote:Why would you ever go to the firm over the honors program

You can always go to the firm after, but the honors program is one shot

Because torture is too hard to pass up.

EDIT: did I say torture? Of course I meant money

jbagelboy wrote:Why would you ever go to the firm over the honors program

You can always go to the firm after, but the honors program is one shot

Maybe the biglaw offer is from his dream firm

bearsfan23 wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:Why would you ever go to the firm over the honors program

You can always go to the firm after, but the honors program is one shot

Maybe the biglaw offer is from his dream firm

I know you're being facetious, but what 'dream firm' would not allow the incoming associate to do doj honors first

whatever

there is a solution to your woes: tell the biglaw firm to suck it and embrace your happy future with bigfed. just pray allfather trump doesn't banish you to the torture pits for a foolish transgression like gazing upon his small hands

jbagelboy wrote:

bearsfan23 wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:Why would you ever go to the firm over the honors program

You can always go to the firm after, but the honors program is one shot

Maybe the biglaw offer is from his dream firm

I know you're being facetious, but what 'dream firm' would not allow the incoming associate to do doj honors first

whatever

1) OP's not doing doj
2) the honors programs aren't like clerkships (except for the ones that actually are clerkships) - the idea is that you will get slotted into a permanent job, not that you do it for a few years before going to a firm. Certainly people do go from the government to firms, but I don't see how you would make some kind of arrangement with a firm to go back to them after.

I have heard of BigLaw firms occasionally telling summers that want to go do DOJ Honors that there will be a spot for them if they ever want to come back. But yeah, it's not like a clerkship with a definite end point.

OP here. It's not my dream firm, if that helps. I think I should just stick with the honors program. I received a couple other offers, but none that pay as high as the new big law offer. I struck out at OCI for a number of reasons, and think that, at this point, I'm just glad to have a number of offers on the table. I didn't have the option to work somewhere that pays $180k before now, and just wanted advise before taking a huge pay cut to go to the government.

jbagelboy wrote:Why would you ever go to the firm over the honors program

You can always go to the firm after, but the honors program is one shot

Yeah, you have to be insane to turn down government Honors for biglaw, IMO.

People who ask questions such as this have obviously never worked in Biglaw and don't realize how many people actually hate it after only 3-6 months. Government gives you better work/life balance, loan forgiveness, better training, better long-term prospects, etc.

JCougar wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:Why would you ever go to the firm over the honors program

You can always go to the firm after, but the honors program is one shot

Yeah, you have to be insane to turn down government Honors for biglaw, IMO.

People who ask questions such as this have obviously never worked in Biglaw and don't realize how many people actually hate it after only 3-6 months. Government gives you better work/life balance, loan forgiveness, better training, better long-term prospects, etc.

As someone currently in an honors program, I feel like I should qualify this a little. I probably received more "substantive experience" than many of my biglaw classmates, but I don't know if I'd say I received better training. It's also unclear to me what's meant by better long-term prospects. I could probably stay where I am for my entire career, but there's not necessarily a lot of room for upward movement, and I'm not sure how much flexibility I'd have outside of the agency after 5-10 years. Personally, I like my job, but these are just some things to consider. I'm sure it also varies depending on the program you're with.

Yeah, I also really like my (honors) job, but the long term options are highly program-dependent. Long-term options out of DHS or BOP, say, are likely to be different from long-term options out of SEC or ATR.

My point is that Biglaw isn't a long-term option for most people either. Turnover is like 70% after five years. There's not enough in-house jobs for all those cast-offs.

Anonymous User wrote:

JCougar wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:Why would you ever go to the firm over the honors program

You can always go to the firm after, but the honors program is one shot

Yeah, you have to be insane to turn down government Honors for biglaw, IMO.

People who ask questions such as this have obviously never worked in Biglaw and don't realize how many people actually hate it after only 3-6 months. Government gives you better work/life balance, loan forgiveness, better training, better long-term prospects, etc.

As someone currently in an honors program, I feel like I should qualify this a little. I probably received more "substantive experience" than many of my biglaw classmates, but I don't know if I'd say I received better training. It's also unclear to me what's meant by better long-term prospects. I could probably stay where I am for my entire career, but there's not necessarily a lot of room for upward movement, and I'm not sure how much flexibility I'd have outside of the agency after 5-10 years. Personally, I like my job, but these are just some things to consider. I'm sure it also varies depending on the program you're with.

Getting more substantive experience does equate to getting better training. I was the primary attorney on several cases in my first year out while my peers were doing memos and checking for typos in biglaw (yes, I'm simplifying and generalizing here). I've talked to judges, dealt with terrible opposing counsel, drafted entire motions, etc.

As to upward mobility, it depends on how you look at this. I will agree that it is very agency specific because the experience I've gotten might not be the same as someone working in say veteran appeals. However, there are many transferable skills and the attorney in question just needs to know how to hustle. For example, me saying I adviced the government on this doesn't sound as great to a private employer than saying I adviced my client on X matter. I know that's a lame example, but you should get the point.

Plus, government attorneys, depending on location, can hit the six figure mark between 3-4 years. Then later you top out at 13, 14, or 15 if you're lucky. Unless of course you gun for SES. But think about that for a moment. A 14 making six figures and working 40 hours per week might not seem as "upward mobility" as being a senior associate at a firm making $350k. But only one of those two attorneys has a decent lifestyle.

The thing people seem to forget about biglaw is that you're making TONS of money, but you're also working A LOT harder than anyone else. I make half the money, but I also work half the time and I'm less stressed. That upward mobility works for me. Might not work for others.

zot1 wrote: Getting more substantive experience does equate to getting better training. I was the primary attorney on several cases in my first year out while my peers were doing memos and checking for typos in biglaw (yes, I'm simplifying and generalizing here). I've talked to judges, dealt with terrible opposing counsel, drafted entire motions, etc.

I'll push back on this just a little. I've done more things, but I don't know if I've done them well. My co-workers are excellent, but in my limited experience most of the big law firms are a little cleaner in their drafting. I also think that it's easy to pick up bad habits here, and while that might be true everywhere, there aren't as many checks where I am to get me back on track.

zot1 wrote: As to upward mobility, it depends on how you look at this. I will agree that it is very agency specific because the experience I've gotten might not be the same as someone working in say veteran appeals. However, there are many transferable skills and the attorney in question just needs to know how to hustle. For example, me saying I adviced the government on this doesn't sound as great to a private employer than saying I adviced my client on X matter. I know that's a lame example, but you should get the point.

Plus, government attorneys, depending on location, can hit the six figure mark between 3-4 years. Then later you top out at 13, 14, or 15 if you're lucky. Unless of course you gun for SES. But think about that for a moment. A 14 making six figures and working 40 hours per week might not seem as "upward mobility" as being a senior associate at a firm making $350k. But only one of those two attorneys has a decent lifestyle.

The thing people seem to forget about biglaw is that you're making TONS of money, but you're also working A LOT harder than anyone else. I make half the money, but I also work half the time and I'm less stressed. That upward mobility works for me. Might not work for others.

I agree. This is a balance decision everyone has to make. My point about moving up, though, is that you may find yourself doing the same kind of work for 20 years unless you manage to climb the ladder. You will be given responsibility for more complex cases as you get more experience, but that will cap out eventually. At a firm your responsibilities will change every few years. Some people like that. I don't know what it's like in-house. Eventually, I suppose almost all jobs stabilize, but again this depends on what you're looking for in the near-medium term.

As far as to quality of your work, I will agree that can also be agency specific. However, I generally ask my more senior peers to critique my work. I take the initiative and have always been supported and provided feedback so far. I don't generally have the same problem as many junior associates regarding providing work with several typos and or missing some of the law. But as Nony pointed out to me once, I'm not sleep deprived as many of those associates.

I know some people tend to think that those in government are somehow less skilled than those in big law, but at least within my office, I haven't found that to be true. So take it for what it is.

As far as getting capped, you can only do so many things as an attorney within your role. I don't think that changes dramatically depending on position.