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Is it true that Wachtell ≈ Cravath > S&C / Skadden > DPW / STB? This seems to be the reputation at my CCN -- particularly that DPW / STB are "gentler" firms.

Are there general trends that can be discerned between these firms, besides that Wachtell works associates the hardest by far? Or is this question totally asinine because it depends entirely on what group you are in / partner you are working for?

FWIW, I know a first-year at STB and the hours sound brutal. Can't comment on the others but can't imagine they'd be any worse.

FWIW, I know a first-year at STB and the hours sound brutal. Can't comment on the others but can't imagine they'd be any worse.

That is also what I've heard. The rest of the list sounds about right, but STB is also supposed to be a debilitating workload.

Obligatory "obviously associates at DPW work long hours too," but it sounds like you know there are material differences between firms in Big Law.

Pretty sure each of these firms has brutal hours with variations among specific groups.. its a factor not worthy of consideration

Anonymous User wrote:Is it true that Wachtell ≈ Cravath > S&C / Skadden > DPW / STB? This seems to be the reputation at my CCN -- particularly that DPW / STB are "gentler" firms.

Are there general trends that can be discerned between these firms, besides that Wachtell works associates the hardest by far? Or is this question totally asinine because it depends entirely on what group you are in / partner you are working for?

I can't speak to the other firms but I'm a Skadden NY corporate junior and I'm on pace for 1600 hours this year. My reviews were solid. I do not get the sense that I'm an outlier among the corporate associates. Midlevels get worked much harder than juniors (there are fewer of them and they're generally way more competent).

Have friends working at all of the above other than Wachtell, and my impression is that there is much more variance from group to group and person to person. Variance from firm to firm is significantly less consistent, and is primarily based on workflow for a given year and how well the firm accommodates workflow variance between groups.

I'm going to one of these firms and have two friends who are associates that lateraled from Cravath. They both said hours at CSM were worse and that the associates there were more miserable. I believe they also both said they would have just come to the other firm from the get-go had they known how bad it was going to be.

These could just be anecdotes, but Cravath does seem to have a reputation among the V5s for working its associates the hardest. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some truth underlying that reputation.

As for S&C/DPW/STB/Skadden, I had never heard of any of those being different in terms of hours. I had, however, heard of Skadden's lol-worthy "We are not a sweatshop" marketing/recruiting campaign.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm going to one of these firms and have two friends who are associates that lateraled from Cravath. They both said hours at CSM were worse and that the associates there were more miserable. I believe they also both said they would have just come to the other firm from the get-go had they known how bad it was going to be.

These could just be anecdotes, but Cravath does seem to have a reputation among the V5s for working its associates the hardest. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some truth underlying that reputation.

As for S&C/DPW/STB/Skadden, I had never heard of any of those being different in terms of hours. I had, however, heard of Skadden's lol-worthy "We are not a sweatshop" marketing/recruiting campaign.

which firm are you going to?

1styearlateral wrote:FWIW, I know a first-year at STB and the hours sound brutal. Can't comment on the others but can't imagine they'd be any worse.

I work at STB in corp., and the hours vary among practice groups. Private Funds associates get uniformly crushed, but other corp. groups have variable hours. Friends work anywhere from 1800 to 2400 hours. Average is around 1900.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm going to one of these firms and have two friends who are associates that lateraled from Cravath. They both said hours at CSM were worse and that the associates there were more miserable. I believe they also both said they would have just come to the other firm from the get-go had they known how bad it was going to be.

These could just be anecdotes, but Cravath does seem to have a reputation among the V5s for working its associates the hardest. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some truth underlying that reputation.

As for S&C/DPW/STB/Skadden, I had never heard of any of those being different in terms of hours. I had, however, heard of Skadden's lol-worthy "We are not a sweatshop" marketing/recruiting campaign.

To double clarify, your V5 = CSM/S&C/DPW/Skadden/STB.

WLRK >> CSM in terms of hours worked, probably at all levels.

Anonymous User wrote:Is it true that Wachtell ≈ Cravath > S&C / Skadden > DPW / STB? This seems to be the reputation at my CCN -- particularly that DPW / STB are "gentler" firms.

Are there general trends that can be discerned between these firms, besides that Wachtell works associates the hardest by far? Or is this question totally asinine because it depends entirely on what group you are in / partner you are working for?

Other than Wachtell (and - maybe - Cravath), you're not going to be able to consistently generalize among the V10.

Skadden (I believe) has a 1600 hour bonus requirement, and I think Latham and Kirkland have something like that too. What does that mean? Some folks will be billing around 1600 hours, especially at the junior levels.

Right now I expect every midlevel corp associate in NYC is cranking at an unsustainable pace (tip - if you're reading this, and you're not, either your firm's in trouble or you are)

And if you're cranking towards partnership, all of these firms will be brutal in what they expect of you.

Anonymous User wrote:

1styearlateral wrote:FWIW, I know a first-year at STB and the hours sound brutal. Can't comment on the others but can't imagine they'd be any worse.

I work at STB in corp., and the hours vary among practice groups. Private Funds associates get uniformly crushed, but other corp. groups have variable hours. Friends work anywhere from 1800 to 2400 hours. Average is around 1900.

Do the same numbers hold true for lit associates?

Anonymous User wrote:

1styearlateral wrote:FWIW, I know a first-year at STB and the hours sound brutal. Can't comment on the others but can't imagine they'd be any worse.

I work at STB in corp., and the hours vary among practice groups. Private Funds associates get uniformly crushed, but other corp. groups have variable hours. Friends work anywhere from 1800 to 2400 hours. Average is around 1900.

Is this really true? 1900 doesn't seem so bad. I've always thought I'd be billing 2300-2500 in NYC.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

1styearlateral wrote:FWIW, I know a first-year at STB and the hours sound brutal. Can't comment on the others but can't imagine they'd be any worse.

I work at STB in corp., and the hours vary among practice groups. Private Funds associates get uniformly crushed, but other corp. groups have variable hours. Friends work anywhere from 1800 to 2400 hours. Average is around 1900.

Is this really true? 1900 doesn't seem so bad. I've always thought I'd be billing 2300-2500 in NYC.

While I wouldn't go as far as to say 1900 doesn't seem bad, I also was under the impression that NYC biglaw is closer to the 2200+ range. I get that a lot of what makes it so bad is the unpredictability/being on call, but the 1600 hr figure mentioned above comes out to an average of 40-50 hour weeks even assuming 66% billed:worked.

Yeah, you'll be billing way more than you anticipate. No reason to even factor in billable hours at any of the v100. I know people at the bottom of the list who still bill 2000+.

I just worked across an STB private equity team that did not appear to sleep ever. I'm on the west coast and was receiving calls from them between 12:00am - 3:30 am (PST) three nights in a row. They were in NYC so that was them calling us between 3:30 - 630 am. Never met a more anal team. They made the deal one of the worst ever, truly a horrible experience.

I've heard from two guys that working in DPW's financial institutions group is an epic grind as well.

I think what people are saying regarding it depending group to group, rather than firm to firm, is probably true.

In talking to friends or hearing anecdata on each, I believe Wachtell is meaningfully higher than Cravath which is marginally higher than the rest of the group mentioned. Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB are on average very similar but it's practice group dependent and in some cases seasonal. DPW is definitely not a lifestyle/prestige unicorn, people work very hard.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

1styearlateral wrote:FWIW, I know a first-year at STB and the hours sound brutal. Can't comment on the others but can't imagine they'd be any worse.

I work at STB in corp., and the hours vary among practice groups. Private Funds associates get uniformly crushed, but other corp. groups have variable hours. Friends work anywhere from 1800 to 2400 hours. Average is around 1900.

Is this really true? 1900 doesn't seem so bad. I've always thought I'd be billing 2300-2500 in NYC.

Same quoted anon. I recall seeing a presentation a while back ago showing the average hours billed at the firm... it was around 1900-1950 for the previous year. Averages don't mean much, though, if some specialty groups typically bill 1600-1700 or if most juniors bill 1800-1900.

From my experience talking to friends, most bill within the 1900-2100 range. There are outliers in either direction, though.

Hours are going to be brutal at any of those firms. The differences among practice groups and working for different partners is going to matter more than the differences between the firms themselves.

Comparing DPW EIRSA to S&C M&A practices is likely comparing apples to llamas on the hours front.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Is it true that Wachtell ≈ Cravath > S&C / Skadden > DPW / STB? This seems to be the reputation at my CCN -- particularly that DPW / STB are "gentler" firms.

Are there general trends that can be discerned between these firms, besides that Wachtell works associates the hardest by far? Or is this question totally asinine because it depends entirely on what group you are in / partner you are working for?

I can't speak to the other firms but I'm a Skadden NY corporate junior and I'm on pace for 1600 hours this year. My reviews were solid. I do not get the sense that I'm an outlier among the corporate associates. Midlevels get worked much harder than juniors (there are fewer of them and they're generally way more competent).

I'm Corp/m&a junior at a non-NY Skadden office. Was on pace for 2500 last time I checked... bout to transfer...

Wachtell lit you can expect to bill at least 2500-2600 (closer to 2600). Corporate you can expect to log 2700-3000 hours (Depending on deal flow).

Anonymous User wrote:In talking to friends or hearing anecdata on each, I believe Wachtell is meaningfully higher than Cravath which is marginally higher than the rest of the group mentioned. Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB are on average very similar but it's practice group dependent and in some cases seasonal. DPW is definitely not a lifestyle/prestige unicorn, people work very hard.

Where do you think Kirkland falls?

Anonymous User wrote:Wachtell lit you can expect to bill at least 2500-2600 (closer to 2600). Corporate you can expect to log 2700-3000 hours (Depending on deal flow).

speaking with a few reliable sources, I was told wachtell associates don't bill much higher than the other v5 on average. they don't even bill clients by the hour so I don't know what real incentive there is for associates to keep track of hours accurately (although I understand they are still required to). this logically makes sense as well, as I just don't believe the person billing 2800 a year is actually working more than the one billing 2300 a year - he is just much more liberal with billing. once you hit 2200/2300 range everything is just a blur

TCR is that it varies by the group more, and by what partners like you. I once spoke with a woman who worked in Cravath's T&E group - and she left at 7 most days. Meanwhile, at my lowly V100, if a certain M&A partner takes a liking to you, there is no way you'll bill less than 2600 hours a year.

Chad_IRL wrote:

FWIW, I know a first-year at STB and the hours sound brutal. Can't comment on the others but can't imagine they'd be any worse.

That is also what I've heard. The rest of the list sounds about right, but STB is also supposed to be a debilitating workload.

Obligatory "obviously associates at DPW work long hours too," but it sounds like you know there are material differences between firms in Big Law.

aren't you a 0L who hasn't taken the LSAT yet? What makes you think you know anything at all about these firms? Some people are making life decisions here dude

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:In talking to friends or hearing anecdata on each, I believe Wachtell is meaningfully higher than Cravath which is marginally higher than the rest of the group mentioned. Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB are on average very similar but it's practice group dependent and in some cases seasonal. DPW is definitely not a lifestyle/prestige unicorn, people work very hard.

Where do you think Kirkland falls?

Also interested hearing thoughts on K&E hours