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Does anyone have any insight or personal experience with Jones Day's blackbox compensation. Since they don't give bonuses, do the salaries they give for 2nd years and above include market bonuses that other firms would normally give? Are most associates at market level or below market? Any insight into the NY office would be great. Thanks!

salaries are below market for 90% of associates and at market for abotu 10% of associates. there was an above the law article about this with actual numbers in july.

JohannDeMann wrote:salaries are below market for 90% of associates and at market for abotu 10% of associates. there was an above the law article about this with actual numbers in july.

Not OP but interested in this as well. I think this is the article you were referring to? http://abovethelaw.com/2016/06/the-jig- ... black-box/

Not OP and interested as well --watch this.

"Blackbox" = below market (basically what johann said).

Remember JD was also the last big firm to raise to $180k. If compensation is important to you, I'd keep that in mind

As a incoming JD associate I'm wondering if the stuff on ATL today has any truth to it:

[A]s bonus season rolls around, associates at JD are getting even more frustrated. There have been rumors that JD will do an off-cycle raise in January to mitigate the market gap issue that y’all highlighted earlier this year, but no one from the administration has confirmed this, nor does anyone really believe it will bring us up to (or near) market.

Does anyone have any info on the "off-cycle raise" referred to?

JD basically just doesn't give bonuses except to particular associates, which results in below market comp, but it does pay at the market scale for base for at least the first few years.

Anonymous User wrote:JD basically just doesn't give bonuses except to particular associates, which results in below market comp, but it does pay at the market scale for base for at least the first few years.

Yeah I knew that part--I was wondering if there was any merit to the ATL rumors there were going to be more raises in January

JD mid-level here. Bonuses are a myth. For 2nd years there's a ~10k bump start's your second January at major offices (i.e. class of 2015 will get 10k bump in Jan 2017).

Count on being well below total comp, unless bonuses evaporate at other firms. Buddy of mine who is class of '09 is ~120k behind total comp and is viewed as p-ship material. Also count on more hours than you expected, the Jones Days, Nights, and Weekends thing is legit.

Not to say there aren't reasons to choose JD, but comp aint one. I suspect only above market associates are the former Sup. Ct. Clerks we shell out for.

Anonymous User wrote:JD mid-level here. Bonuses are a myth. For 2nd years there's a ~10k bump start's your second January at major offices (i.e. class of 2015 will get 10k bump in Jan 2017).

Count on being well below total comp, unless bonuses evaporate at other firms. Buddy of mine who is class of '09 is ~120k behind total comp and is viewed as p-ship material. Also count on more hours than you expected, the Jones Days, Nights, and Weekends thing is legit.

Not to say there aren't reasons to choose JD, but comp aint one. I suspect only above market associates are the former Sup. Ct. Clerks we shell out for.

I'm headed to a JD office in a secondary market where its the best firm in town and the other firms in the city don't really do bonuses anyway.

But it is pretty unfortunate to hear how below market comp is. As a summer associate the prevailing sense from recruiting AND associates (who must have lied) was that comp was market, and that bonuses were folded into salaries. It is quite clear after seeing ATL articles and JD associate testimonials on here that is patently false.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:JD mid-level here. Bonuses are a myth. For 2nd years there's a ~10k bump start's your second January at major offices (i.e. class of 2015 will get 10k bump in Jan 2017).

Count on being well below total comp, unless bonuses evaporate at other firms. Buddy of mine who is class of '09 is ~120k behind total comp and is viewed as p-ship material. Also count on more hours than you expected, the Jones Days, Nights, and Weekends thing is legit.

Not to say there aren't reasons to choose JD, but comp aint one. I suspect only above market associates are the former Sup. Ct. Clerks we shell out for.

I'm headed to a JD office in a secondary market where its the best firm in town and the other firms in the city don't really do bonuses anyway.

But it is pretty unfortunate to hear how below market comp is. As a summer associate the prevailing sense from recruiting AND associates (who must have lied) was that comp was market, and that bonuses were folded into salaries. It is quite clear after seeing ATL articles and JD associate testimonials on here that is patently false.

It's the standard line and no one trusts summers enough to tell it like it really is. I think it used to be true in late 2000s, hasn't been true since crash tho. It's a real problem since they tell us firm is more profitable than ever.

The story that JD black box means below market is officially debunked (7th year associate confirmed to make $810,000):

http://abovethelaw.com/2017/04/the-trum ... th-part-2/

Anonymous User wrote:The story that JD black box means below market is officially debunked (7th year associate confirmed to make $810,000):

http://abovethelaw.com/2017/04/the-trum ... th-part-2/

*One seventh yr associate confirmed to make 810,000. That's crazy but doesn't "debunk" anything said in this thread.

I always assumed they must pay some associates way above market because otherwise there's no reason for like 50% of every SCOTUS clerk class to end up there. It's not that great a firm.

FascinatedWanderer wrote:I always assumed they must pay some associates way above market because otherwise there's no reason for like 50% of every SCOTUS clerk class to end up there. It's not that great a firm.

I read that JD doesn’t ding SCOTUS clerks on class year, unlike other firms, while paying them market clerkship bonus. This alone is enough of a reason for them to join JD in droves.

But there could be other reasons as well.

Anonymous User wrote:

FascinatedWanderer wrote:I always assumed they must pay some associates way above market because otherwise there's no reason for like 50% of every SCOTUS clerk class to end up there. It's not that great a firm.

I read that JD doesn’t ding SCOTUS clerks on class year, unlike other firms, while paying them market clerkship bonus. This alone is enough of a reason for them to join JD in droves.

But there could be other reasons as well.

No idea about comp, but from what I gather from the SCOTUS clerks I've worked with, life at JD as a former clerk is pretty sweet. Fewer billable expectations because of niche practice that is Issues and Appeals, get to write briefs on obscure issues, work in a pretty closely nit practice group, etc.

JD 4th year lit assoc here.

Anonymous User wrote:Fewer billable expectations because of niche practice that is Issues and Appeals, get to write briefs on obscure issues, work in a pretty closely nit practice group, etc.

What does "fewer billable expectations" mean? 1700?

Anonymous User wrote:

FascinatedWanderer wrote:I always assumed they must pay some associates way above market because otherwise there's no reason for like 50% of every SCOTUS clerk class to end up there. It's not that great a firm.

I read that JD doesn’t ding SCOTUS clerks on class year, unlike other firms, while paying them market clerkship bonus. This alone is enough of a reason for them to join JD in droves.

But there could be other reasons as well.

Can confirm that, from what I've seen, JD does bring in SCOTUS clerks at actual class year and build in full Cravath bonus for that class year into their comp. In addition to the SCOTUS bonus, which is top of the market. I didn't know other firms made SCOTUS clerks take a class year hit.

As to why so many go there, past practice of JD was to offer every single SCOTUS clerk who interviewed because I&A always had the capacity to take on as many as could be expected to accept. That may have changed more recently, though.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Fewer billable expectations because of niche practice that is Issues and Appeals, get to write briefs on obscure issues, work in a pretty closely nit practice group, etc.

What does "fewer billable expectations" mean? 1700?

I'm sure the stated goal is still 2000, but also have heard there's nearly no pressure to hit any specific number and that 1800 hours or so is the norm.

I'd really love to get data points from associates in secondary markets on their salaries after the first year. I have zero idea what to expect (first year associate here)

Anonymous User wrote:I'd really love to get data points from associates in secondary markets on their salaries after the first year. I have zero idea what to expect (first year associate here)

I spent years 2, 3, and 4 at a v50 firm in a secondary city. I started at either 115 or 120, and my raise every year was either 5k or 10k. My bonus every year was somewhere between 5-10k. Clerkship bonus for federal clerkship was $0.

Edit: I’m an idiot. I figured I’d help with a data point, but I realize that you probably meant JD associates in secondary markets.

Anonymous User wrote:I'd really love to get data points from associates in secondary markets on their salaries after the first year. I have zero idea what to expect (first year associate here)

In the secondary markets JD is in (Columbus, Detroit, Minneapolis), my understanding is that other more regional firms have complained about having to keep pace with JD's associate salaries.

.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:
In the secondary markets JD is in (Columbus, Detroit, Minneapolis), my understanding is that other more regional firms have complained about having to keep pace with JD's associate salaries.

I don’t doubt that, JD in secondary markets like Detroit and Minneapolis is hoarding all the ex-circuit clerks. It makes sense because JD can still charge their national billing rate to clients who would be willing to pay.

At least for Minneapolis, that's not what's happening at all. JD is currently a really small shop that just set a new normal for comp. in the market among bigger firms. The major local players are being forced to increase comp. to stay competitive. The worry isn't about grabbing more fed clerks, it's about grabbing market share in markets where there are local players grabbing all the choice clients.

I think you misunderstand what JD is doing in acquiring small offices in secondary markets. It's not about continuing to bill national client rates and beefing up profits per se. It's about making inroads to markets that have big clients untouched by other major players that they can grab.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I'd really love to get data points from associates in secondary markets on their salaries after the first year. I have zero idea what to expect (first year associate here)

I spent years 2, 3, and 4 at a v50 firm in a secondary city. I started at either 115 or 120, and my raise every year was either 5k or 10k. My bonus every year was somewhere between 5-10k. Clerkship bonus for federal clerkship was $0.

Edit: I’m an idiot. I figured I’d help with a data point, but I realize that you probably meant JD associates in secondary markets.

Lol yeah, but thank you, since that is still a little helpful. But yeah, any JD associates from like Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Columbus, etc. on the 160k scale I'd love to know what a 3rd year, 5th year, etc. make