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What do Vault Hours Rankings mean? Do the high ranks = less hours worked or more hours worked?

Humans generally prefer to work fewer hours, rather than as many as possible.

But vault rankings, especially of these variety, should play no role in your firm decision.

Yea, okay, it does look like the higher the ranking, the lower the hours because it's under criteria for "best firms to work for," and the firms aren't necessarily the "highest name-brand firms." What's wrong with Vault rankings though?

monalisa wrote:Yea, okay, it does look like the higher the ranking, the lower the hours because it's under criteria for "best firms to work for," and the firms aren't necessarily the "highest name-brand firms." What's wrong with Vault rankings though?

Vault rankings are derived from information reported by associates themselves, some of whom may not understand yet how things work at their firm, some of which don't know enough about other firms to actually accurately give ratings of any kind to those firms (you're "discouraged" from doing so, but, come on), some of which clearly have an interest in making their firm look as good as possible, even if their firm objectively sucks, etc.

Once you're in a firm and have a chance to fill out the survey, you'll see. It has value in very specific instances, but it probably should not be used by the majority of people going into law.

Anonymous User wrote:

monalisa wrote:Yea, okay, it does look like the higher the ranking, the lower the hours because it's under criteria for "best firms to work for," and the firms aren't necessarily the "highest name-brand firms." What's wrong with Vault rankings though?

Vault rankings are derived from information reported by associates themselves, some of whom may not understand yet how things work at their firm, some of which don't know enough about other firms to actually accurately give ratings of any kind to those firms (you're "discouraged" from doing so, but, come on), some of which clearly have an interest in making their firm look as good as possible, even if their firm objectively sucks, etc.

Once you're in a firm and have a chance to fill out the survey, you'll see. It has value in very specific instances, but it probably should not be used by the majority of people going into law.

What instances is it good for, in your opinion?

Typically the Vault rankings are O.K. for figuring out what the market thinks about big firms doing big work in big markets. It's sort of O.K. for comparing transactional law practices in New York, for example.

Much beyond that, Vault's mechanical shortcomings (read: the fact that it's just a survey of shit-for-brains associates) mean you can't rely on it for too much information.

I have seen a good number of various V rankings but never one comparing hours, where is the link to that stat? Thx.

(My experience is that V hours = 2,000 ― give or take a little. It is a high number considering that most V offer 4 weeks vacation).

Toni V wrote:I have seen a good number of various V rankings but never one comparing hours, where is the link to that stat? Thx.

(My experience is that V hours = 2,000 ― give or take a little. It is a high number considering that most V offer 4 weeks vacation).

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/l ... sRankID=31

monalisa wrote:What do Vault Hours Rankings mean? Do the high ranks = less hours worked or more hours worked?

The higher the Vault Hours Ranking, the higher the quality of the hours worked. The lower the Vault Hours Ranking, the lower the quality.

hey why no V10 on the list? I call BS

monalisa wrote:

Toni V wrote:I have seen a good number of various V rankings but never one comparing hours, where is the link to that stat? Thx.

(My experience is that V hours = 2,000 ― give or take a little. It is a high number considering that most V offer 4 weeks vacation).

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/l ... sRankID=31

This seems like an EXTREMELY random list of firms. I can't think of anythingthey really have in common, based on general reputation. Certainly not low hours.

??????????

ballouttacontrol wrote:

monalisa wrote:

Toni V wrote:I have seen a good number of various V rankings but never one comparing hours, where is the link to that stat? Thx.

(My experience is that V hours = 2,000 ― give or take a little. It is a high number considering that most V offer 4 weeks vacation).

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/l ... sRankID=31

This seems like an EXTREMELY random list of firms. I can't think of anythingthey really have in common, based on general reputation. Certainly not low hours.

I would say the firms generally have excellence in common. As I stated, this particular ranking is about hours quality, not quantity.

Clients fleeing these firms in droves, wondering why they were paying these overcompensated associates to work lifestyle firm hours.

ballouttacontrol wrote:

monalisa wrote:

Toni V wrote:I have seen a good number of various V rankings but never one comparing hours, where is the link to that stat? Thx.

(My experience is that V hours = 2,000 ― give or take a little. It is a high number considering that most V offer 4 weeks vacation).

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/l ... sRankID=31

This seems like an EXTREMELY random list of firms. I can't think of anythingthey really have in common, based on general reputation. Certainly not low hours.

??????????

I have never heard anyone describe Fried Frank or Paul Hastings as having anything like humane hours.

Is there any firm paying market comp with an hours expectation under 1950?

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:

ballouttacontrol wrote:

monalisa wrote:

Toni V wrote:I have seen a good number of various V rankings but never one comparing hours, where is the link to that stat? Thx.

(My experience is that V hours = 2,000 ― give or take a little. It is a high number considering that most V offer 4 weeks vacation).

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/l ... sRankID=31

This seems like an EXTREMELY random list of firms. I can't think of anythingthey really have in common, based on general reputation. Certainly not low hours.

??????????

I have never heard anyone describe Fried Frank or Paul Hastings as having anything like humane hours.

Is there any firm paying market comp with an hours expectation under 1950?

Sure, in many secondary markets 1950 would be a slightly above average target

Still not sure I buy this list though even under R Putin's explanation. Your hours are going to be higher quality at Munger or Paul Hastings than WinstonStrawn or whatever other fucking run of the mill big lit firm? Or, compared to smaller lit boutiques that don't make vault's list at all? Yea ok...

Wtf does quality even mean? "We're still working you like a dog, but our matters are FAR more prestigious than a V43 firm, so it feels better right? Doesn't that help you sleep at night? CAN'T YOU JUST TASTE THE PRESTIGE????"

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:Wtf does quality even mean? "We're still working you like a dog, but our matters are FAR more prestigious than a V43 firm, so it feels better right? Doesn't that help you sleep at night? CAN'T YOU JUST TASTE THE PRESTIGE????"

You're missing the point. The general Vault rankings are about mindless prestige. But these "Vault Hours Rankings" are about substance. These are the rankings that everyone should be looking at closely. We all want quality hours.

rpupkin wrote:

ballouttacontrol wrote:

monalisa wrote:

Toni V wrote:I have seen a good number of various V rankings but never one comparing hours, where is the link to that stat? Thx.

(My experience is that V hours = 2,000 ― give or take a little. It is a high number considering that most V offer 4 weeks vacation).

http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/l ... sRankID=31

This seems like an EXTREMELY random list of firms. I can't think of anythingthey really have in common, based on general reputation. Certainly not low hours.

I would say the firms generally have excellence in common. As I stated, this particular ranking is about hours quality, not quantity.

You serious, Clark? "Excellence in common" lol. It is clearly about better hours and lifestyle. Even the header says, "Prestige isn't everything. These are the firms associates find the most amenable to a satisfying work experience." O'Melveny is #1 and they recently were also ranked...#1 for lifestyle in another ranking.

Adams and Reese is #8. Be honest: Have you even heard of them before the Vault ranking that you just read? Because they have never even been in the V100. They are a good regional firm for the Gulf states, but you are telling me the quality of hours an associate in Mobile, Alabama or Baton Rouge is on point with the rest of the list? The associates I know there enjoy it because the hours are actually low; they can do happy hour almost every day, and hell, sometimes they have happy hour at the office. So yeah, they enjoy the hours and lifestyle, not because they are defending a local newspaper and think their hours are all quality.

The most selective firm rankings are going to be more meaningful for substance/prestigiousness of the hours and deals worked, but whatever you want to fit your narrative here of "excellence in common!!!"

deadpanic wrote:

rpupkin wrote: I would say the firms generally have excellence in common. As I stated, this particular ranking is about hours quality, not quantity.

You serious, Clark? "Excellence in common" lol. It is clearly about better hours and lifestyle. Even the header says, "Prestige isn't everything. These are the firms associates find the most amenable to a satisfying work experience." O'Melveny is #1 and they recently were also ranked...#1 for lifestyle in another ranking.

Adams and Reese is #8. Be honest: Have you even heard of them before the Vault ranking that you just read? Because they have never even been in the V100. They are a good regional firm for the Gulf states, but you are telling me the quality of hours an associate in Mobile, Alabama or Baton Rouge is on point with the rest of the list?

LJL @ your lack of prestige awareness. Most TLS'ers have never heard of Adams and Reese because the firm is too prestigious and selective to be on anyone's radar. I bet you applied there and got no response, and now you're bitter. Sad!

And, yes, Vault's header says "prestige isn't everything." But Vault is clearly paraphrasing Vince Lombardi: Prestige isn't everything; it's the only thing. This particular ranking is about pure prestige--i.e., the quality of your hours--and not about mere superficial prestige.

rpupkin wrote:

deadpanic wrote:

rpupkin wrote: I would say the firms generally have excellence in common. As I stated, this particular ranking is about hours quality, not quantity.

You serious, Clark? "Excellence in common" lol. It is clearly about better hours and lifestyle. Even the header says, "Prestige isn't everything. These are the firms associates find the most amenable to a satisfying work experience." O'Melveny is #1 and they recently were also ranked...#1 for lifestyle in another ranking.

Adams and Reese is #8. Be honest: Have you even heard of them before the Vault ranking that you just read? Because they have never even been in the V100. They are a good regional firm for the Gulf states, but you are telling me the quality of hours an associate in Mobile, Alabama or Baton Rouge is on point with the rest of the list?

LJL @ your lack of prestige awareness. Most TLS'ers have never heard of Adams and Reese because the firm is too prestigious and selective to be on anyone's radar. I bet you applied there and got no response, and now you're bitter. Sad!

And, yes, Vault's header says "prestige isn't everything." But Vault is clearly paraphrasing Vince Lombardi: Prestige isn't everything; it's the only thing. This particular ranking is about pure prestige--i.e., the quality of your hours--and not about mere superficial prestige.

This thread is SERIOUSLY bringing on the lulz

rpupkin - are these 1Ls seriously arguing the Vault Hours ranking doesn't measure quality of hours? Its like, do they even lawschool?


At my T6, everyone knows Vault Hours is one of them most important sub-rankings on the entire website. Maybe all of these noobs just go to lower-ranked schools...

rpupkin wrote:

deadpanic wrote:

rpupkin wrote: I would say the firms generally have excellence in common. As I stated, this particular ranking is about hours quality, not quantity.

You serious, Clark? "Excellence in common" lol. It is clearly about better hours and lifestyle. Even the header says, "Prestige isn't everything. These are the firms associates find the most amenable to a satisfying work experience." O'Melveny is #1 and they recently were also ranked...#1 for lifestyle in another ranking.

Adams and Reese is #8. Be honest: Have you even heard of them before the Vault ranking that you just read? Because they have never even been in the V100. They are a good regional firm for the Gulf states, but you are telling me the quality of hours an associate in Mobile, Alabama or Baton Rouge is on point with the rest of the list?

LJL @ your lack of prestige awareness. Most TLS'ers have never heard of Adams and Reese because the firm is too prestigious and selective to be on anyone's radar. I bet you applied there and got no response, and now you're bitter. Sad!

And, yes, Vault's header says "prestige isn't everything." But Vault is clearly paraphrasing Vince Lombardi: Prestige isn't everything; it's the only thing. This particular ranking is about pure prestige--i.e., the quality of your hours--and not about mere superficial prestige.

I can see I lacked the self-awareness on your original sarcasm here, so nicely done. I need to slip back into retirement.