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Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:32 pm
by Anonymous User
Question -- What are good strategies for building and maintaining reputation early in one's career while preserving a reasonable amount of time to spend with one's family?
Hypo -- Say Associate is entering a biglaw firm (or equivalent thereof) as a first-year, and s/he has a spouse and one or more children who s/he likes to spend a decent amount of time with. Associate's career is important to both Associate and his/her family, so Associate wants to establish and maintain an excellent reputation at the firm. On the other hand, Associate is not willing to ignore his/her family for years on end.
To narrow the contingencies, let's also assume Associate will be working in litigation, is capable of doing high-quality work reasonably efficiently, and that there will be no shortage of work at the firm.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:33 pm
by jimmythecatdied6
Associate should not be looking to work at a firm in NYC. That's a starting point
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:35 pm
by Anonymous User
Associate will follow above advice by working in DC / Chi / SF / LA.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:45 pm
by WhiteCollarBlueShirt
It's mostly out of your control unfortunately.
(1) VPN + laptop > VDI with or without a laptop (tech is your primary savior (and enemy));
(2) Get used to working at home, late at night;
(3) Try to work with like minded people;
(4) Try not to get too busy; and
(5) Consider how greatly you value your career.*
I had a similar mindset, but quickly realized that $$$/prestige were much less important to me than I expected (still important, but not V-whatever important). And, I wouldn't necessarily call those markets "lifestyle" markets.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:47 pm
by gregfootball2001
All these anon responses. Oy.
I'm a first-year with an infant. I've worked it out with my firm so that I can get in late-ish - I get in after 9:30 am (YMMV as to whether that's actually late). Then I go home late. My thought is, even if I worked it out so that I left at 6:30pm, he'd only be up for an hour or less by the time I get home. This way I get my 3-ish hours with the kid in the mornings, and I work as late as I need to get everything done. It's worked well so far.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:51 pm
by Anonymous User
Can you expand on #4?
WhiteCollarBlueShirt wrote:(4) Try not to get too busy
I'm imagining this requires gently declining work from time to time. Any advice for how to do so without sacrificing your reputation?
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:59 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:Can you expand on #4?
WhiteCollarBlueShirt wrote:(4) Try not to get too busy
I'm imagining this requires gently declining work from time to time. Any advice for how to do so without sacrificing your reputation?
From what I've been told, it can help to become close with a partner in your group that has a lot of sway at the firm/office. Be his/her go-to associate, so that then when someone else tries to give you an assignment, you can go to that partner and say "hey, attorney X gave me this assignment, but I just wanted to confirm that you wouldn't have a need for the majority of my time during project X's timeline."
I've heard that in many cases, big partner that you work for will say no you can't take that work on, and will call attorney X to tell them to find another associate. At least my office functions like this, but only the most important partners/ones with the biggest books can make these calls, but people also say it's the best way to balance career and life, because you have a big player in your corner if you're doing a good job with their work, and they'll do their best to keep you off other people's assignments even if it means you're slow, so that you're available whenever they become busy again.
Caveat, these partners are usually the most demanding, but hopefully if you're almost strictly working for them, you can develop a working relationship where they respect your free time when they aren't busy with matters that need your attention.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:07 pm
by Anonymous User
I am in a similar boat. I had multiple offers out of 3L OCI and used the period between offers and acceptance to gauge which firm fit best for me and my family. Yes, this means I ultimately turned down more "prestige" for a firm and group that had a younger partnership and less face time requirement. The old fit for prestige trade. I'm pretty confident it will turn out to be the right choice though, but time will tell.
I am also paying more in rent than I'd like in order to be a quick commute from the office. Everything is a trade-off.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:18 pm
by Pomeranian
jimmythecatdied6 wrote:Associate should not be looking to work at a firm in NYC. That's a starting point
Is NYC big law really noticeably worse from a quality of life perspective than say, Chicago or San Fran? I assume new associates are expected will work hard regardless of which office they are at?
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:20 pm
by 2014
Assuming your firm is what it is or your geographic preferences are locked in, my best advice would be to find a group where a lot of the associates have kids. I'm in one now and it generally clears out in the early evening as a result. You won't be able to get out of evening work, but if everyone else is working remotely they will be more tolerant of you doing the same.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:23 pm
by reasonable_man
Be there when it matters. Don't be there when it doesn't.
After you start, look at the trends of the other attorneys you work with. At my firm (national mid-law in major market), the attorneys generally don't arrive until 9:30/10. The big-dog partners in my office tend to leave around 7/8pm. So if you're trying to accrue some face time, coming in early is a waste and staying late is valuable.
The other big thing you can do is minimize your commute. You're going to be earning a very good salary. Consider getting a place that is very close to your office. This can help, a lot.
Find groups of attorneys that have kids - try to work with them (if you have any say in it at all).
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:38 pm
by Anonymous User
I summered in both SF and NYC and it is markedly better in SF for fulltime associates.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:02 pm
by ruski
while its more dependent on the partner than anything else as others have mentioned, you can definitely increase your chances of having a more lifestyle practice if you choose the right group. in any given firm these can include tax, t&e, derivatives, IP transactions, distressed debt trading and most regulatory practices. basically just try to stay away from any hardcore deal work. there are definitely hidden groups in all large law firms that bill way less than everyone else, keep your ears open and try to find out what they are. they are different in each firm but often are one of the above listed ones (although any of the above could easily be a group that regularly bills 200+ hours a month as well, I am just speaking in generally from what I've come across).
edit: just saw you are doing litigation. oh well. they above may not be so useful
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:08 pm
by WhiteCollarBlueShirt
Anonymous User wrote:Can you expand on #4?
WhiteCollarBlueShirt wrote:(4) Try not to get too busy
I'm imagining this requires gently declining work from time to time. Any advice for how to do so without sacrificing your reputation?
Not really. Item 4 is close to pure luck. Just be honest, do your work, don't go out looking for more work when there's no need, try not to turn an hour assignment into a six hour project, and try to be excruciatingly efficient (no internetz).
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:15 pm
by favabeansoup
Agree with a lot of what has been said, especially to tech + having partner to back you. I know an associate in my office who has a influential partner literally force them to leave almost everyday around 5:00-15 to go see kids because he knows the associate just gets sad when they have to stay late. Associate just does more work at night from home through vpn + laptop. Associate is always busy and gets work in on time always, so no one cares. This isn't working "less", it's just doing more work at home (and later in the night most likely).
For the most part I think not a lot of people care about where/when you do your work as long as you get it done and do it well, at least that's how I've seen it in TX market. There have been plenty of days where I've been working with another office the whole day and just stayed home, and other days where I could have stayed home but liked being around other people/having firm resources handy. NYC may require more face time, which sucks and seems antiquated to me really.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:21 pm
by BigZuck
Pomeranian wrote:jimmythecatdied6 wrote:Associate should not be looking to work at a firm in NYC. That's a starting point
Is NYC big law really noticeably worse from a quality of life perspective than say, Chicago or San Fran? I assume new associates are expected will work hard regardless of which office they are at?
Don't do this. This is one of the reasons why 0Ls aren't supposed to post in this forum.
Woof!
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:04 pm
by Anonymous User
I am a mid-level big law assoc with four kids. I have maintained a full-time schedule, but work from home a substantial amount of the time. FWIW, I work for a firm in CA where face-time requirements are basically non-existent.
I also have a few helpful family situations. My husband works east-coast hours, and is home every day around 3:30-4pm, so he can handle after school pickups, etc. I take the morning shift with the kids stuff since he has to be at work between 5am-6am. And since I am usually at home, I can wrap up by 7pm or so, so I get a few hours then as well.
If it helps, as kids get older, it gets better. I have a teenager who recently started driving (!), a pre-teen, and two littler ones. The two older kids are great at helping with the younger ones/running errands.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:13 pm
by Abbie Doobie
advice for biglaw associates who like seeing their kids? get out. that's what i did. what a difference.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:18 pm
by Anonymous User
Abbie Doobie wrote:advice for biglaw associates who like seeing their kids? get out. that's what i did. what a difference.
But what if you want kids and a bigass mansion with expensive cars?
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:18 pm
by Anonymous User
Abbie Doobie wrote:advice for biglaw associates who like seeing their kids? get out. that's what i did. what a difference.
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:19 pm
by Abbie Doobie
Anonymous User wrote:Abbie Doobie wrote:advice for biglaw associates who like seeing their kids? get out. that's what i did. what a difference.
But what if you want kids and a bigass mansion with expensive cars?
if you wanted those things you shouldn't have gone to law school
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:23 pm
by Desert Fox
Abbie Doobie wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Abbie Doobie wrote:advice for biglaw associates who like seeing their kids? get out. that's what i did. what a difference.
But what if you want kids and a bigass mansion with expensive cars?
if you wanted those things you shouldn't have gone to law school
lol exactly.
Biglaw - where dops making 300k live in a 1 bed apartment and ride the subway. lol school teaches in chicago style all over us
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:20 pm
by Abbie Doobie
Desert Fox wrote:Abbie Doobie wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Abbie Doobie wrote:advice for biglaw associates who like seeing their kids? get out. that's what i did. what a difference.
But what if you want kids and a bigass mansion with expensive cars?
if you wanted those things you shouldn't have gone to law school
lol exactly.
Biglaw - where dops making 300k live in a 1 bed apartment and ride the subway. lol school teaches in chicago style all over us
seriously. pipefitters and electricians for cook county are making $47/hr + 1.5x OT and 2.0x holiday/weekends + pension + vaca + awesome health insurance. jfc why did i do this to myself
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:25 pm
by Anonymous User
Abbie Doobie wrote:Desert Fox wrote:Abbie Doobie wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Abbie Doobie wrote:advice for biglaw associates who like seeing their kids? get out. that's what i did. what a difference.
But what if you want kids and a bigass mansion with expensive cars?
if you wanted those things you shouldn't have gone to law school
lol exactly.
Biglaw - where dops making 300k live in a 1 bed apartment and ride the subway. lol school teaches in chicago style all over us
seriously. pipefitters and electricians for cook county are making $47/hr + 1.5x OT and 2.0x holiday/weekends + pension + vaca + awesome health insurance. jfc why did i do this to myself
It's never too late to change!
Re: Advice for Biglaw Associates Who Like Seeing Their Kids?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:24 pm
by reasonable_man
Abbie Doobie wrote:Desert Fox wrote:Abbie Doobie wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Abbie Doobie wrote:advice for biglaw associates who like seeing their kids? get out. that's what i did. what a difference.
But what if you want kids and a bigass mansion with expensive cars?
if you wanted those things you shouldn't have gone to law school
lol exactly.
Biglaw - where dops making 300k live in a 1 bed apartment and ride the subway. lol school teaches in chicago style all over us
seriously. pipefitters and electricians for cook county are making $47/hr + 1.5x OT and 2.0x holiday/weekends + pension + vaca + awesome health insurance. jfc why did i do this to myself
Because you aren't qualified to be a pipefitter
