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My career counselor told me that there are New New York bar requirements that require those who want be barred in the state to have 15 credit hours worth of externship/clinic experience. I can't find this requirement anywhere, is she right about this?

I've never heard of this requirement although they have a maximum number of credits allowed for externships/clinics.

15 credits is more than an entire semester of credits at many law schools. No way they would make this requirement. Maybe she's confused about the 50 pro bono hours or the limit on credits for clinics/externships.

It's a new skills requirement, but it will only apply to those starting law school this Fall (c/o 2019) and later. There are apparently 5 paths to satisfying it, but taking 15 credits of "skills" classes seems like it will be the most common.

See this memo: http://www.courts.state.ny.us/ctapps/ne ... 121615.pdf

Lavitz wrote:It's a new skills requirement, but it will only apply to those starting law school this Fall (c/o 2019) and later. There are apparently 5 paths to satisfying it, but taking 15 credits of "skills" classes seems like it will be the most common.

See this memo: http://www.courts.state.ny.us/ctapps/ne ... 121615.pdf

The New York Bar Exam is rapidly turning into a joke. First the pro bono, then the UBE with a laughable low pass score and now this garbage.

Magic Hat wrote:

Lavitz wrote:It's a new skills requirement, but it will only apply to those starting law school this Fall (c/o 2019) and later. There are apparently 5 paths to satisfying it, but taking 15 credits of "skills" classes seems like it will be the most common.

See this memo: http://www.courts.state.ny.us/ctapps/ne ... 121615.pdf

The New York Bar Exam is rapidly turning into a joke. First the pro bono, then the UBE with a laughable low pass score and now this garbage.

Amen. Admitted in NY since 08'. Anytime this topic comes up among NY lawyers with any bit of seniority - the reaction is always a mix of outrage and disbelief. I still cannot believe the NY Bar is dead.

Tbf, skills courses were basically the only useful/applicable courses that I took in law school. it's not a terrible requirement

reasonable_man wrote:

Magic Hat wrote:

Lavitz wrote:It's a new skills requirement, but it will only apply to those starting law school this Fall (c/o 2019) and later. There are apparently 5 paths to satisfying it, but taking 15 credits of "skills" classes seems like it will be the most common.

See this memo: http://www.courts.state.ny.us/ctapps/ne ... 121615.pdf

The New York Bar Exam is rapidly turning into a joke. First the pro bono, then the UBE with a laughable low pass score and now this garbage.

Amen. Admitted in NY since 08'. Anytime this topic comes up among NY lawyers with any bit of seniority - the reaction is always a mix of outrage and disbelief. I still cannot believe the NY Bar is dead.

Magic Hat wrote:

Lavitz wrote:It's a new skills requirement, but it will only apply to those starting law school this Fall (c/o 2019) and later. There are apparently 5 paths to satisfying it, but taking 15 credits of "skills" classes seems like it will be the most common.

See this memo: http://www.courts.state.ny.us/ctapps/ne ... 121615.pdf

The New York Bar Exam is rapidly turning into a joke. First the pro bono, then the UBE with a laughable low pass score and now this garbage.

What's wrong with requiring pro bono work and skills courses/internships?

elendinel wrote:

Magic Hat wrote:

Lavitz wrote:It's a new skills requirement, but it will only apply to those starting law school this Fall (c/o 2019) and later. There are apparently 5 paths to satisfying it, but taking 15 credits of "skills" classes seems like it will be the most common.

See this memo: http://www.courts.state.ny.us/ctapps/ne ... 121615.pdf

The New York Bar Exam is rapidly turning into a joke. First the pro bono, then the UBE with a laughable low pass score and now this garbage.

What's wrong with requiring pro bono work and skills courses/internships?

Because law school is a joke, and this only encourages schools to raise tuition ten more grand a year so we can have the KYLIE JENNER SKILLS COURSE ENDOWED PROFESSORSHIP at Northwest Texas A&M Tech School of Law.

Not a single one of these things will impact your future practice, particularly since they left it in the hands of the schools which courses will qualify.

sublime wrote:

reasonable_man wrote:

Magic Hat wrote:

Lavitz wrote:It's a new skills requirement, but it will only apply to those starting law school this Fall (c/o 2019) and later. There are apparently 5 paths to satisfying it, but taking 15 credits of "skills" classes seems like it will be the most common.

See this memo: http://www.courts.state.ny.us/ctapps/ne ... 121615.pdf

The New York Bar Exam is rapidly turning into a joke. First the pro bono, then the UBE with a laughable low pass score and now this garbage.

Amen. Admitted in NY since 08'. Anytime this topic comes up among NY lawyers with any bit of seniority - the reaction is always a mix of outrage and disbelief. I still cannot believe the NY Bar is dead.

Maybe that's true. All I know is the once difficult NY bar just became a cake-walk to pass. And it happened just in time for the graduates with the lowest LSAT and overall UGPAs ever to take the test (following a few years of embarrassingly low NY bar pass results)... Chief Judge Lipman, childhood best friend of now convicted Sheldon Silver (the most powerful State politician in NY before his downfall) slid that change through right before he retired this year. Everyone knew Lipman was a shill for, well, everyone (including law school deans). It's all very convenient.

Isn't it great!


Seriously though, this profession all the way through seems to have an unnecessary obsession with every generation going through the hazing that they went through.

sublime wrote:Isn't it great!


Seriously though, this profession all the way through seems to have an unnecessary obsession with every generation going through the hazing that they went through.

Ain't that the truth. "It was bullshit in my day, so it should be bullshit for you too!"

Also, as someone who is taking the last 3 day CA bar exam I am very jealous of NY.

sublime wrote:Isn't it great!


Seriously though, this profession all the way through seems to have an unnecessary obsession with every generation going through the hazing that they went through.

+1

The pass rate isn't because the test has gotten harder - it's a school problem, not a bar problem. The pro bono requirement is unfair, because not all students have the same access. If you get public service you have thousands of pro bono hours at your disposal, same for big law with the caveat most places cap at 100 or so. If you're jobless then the easiest path is to go on craigslist and find one of the many ads to pay 1000s of dollars to get pro bono hours. The new requirement has had the unintended effect (presumably) of subsidizing many sketchy unethical solos. Financing predatory solos is really the biggest effect the new rule has had - how much does someone with 0 experience and minimal competence working one 50 hour week really help a client? How many clients are worse off because of this dumb rule? I wouldn't be surprised if the requirement was implemented by some struggling solo on the bar committee looking to boost profits.

HonestAdvice wrote:The pass rate isn't because the test has gotten harder - it's a school problem, not a bar problem. The pro bono requirement is unfair, because not all students have the same access. If you get public service you have thousands of pro bono hours at your disposal, same for big law with the caveat most places cap at 100 or so. If you're jobless then the easiest path is to go on craigslist and find one of the many ads to pay 1000s of dollars to get pro bono hours. The new requirement has had the unintended effect (presumably) of subsidizing many sketchy unethical solos. Financing predatory solos is really the biggest effect the new rule has had - how much does someone with 0 experience and minimal competence working one 50 hour week really help a client? How many clients are worse off because of this dumb rule? I wouldn't be surprised if the requirement was implemented by some struggling solo on the bar committee looking to boost profits.

What are you talking about? What law schools don't have clinics? I may agree if they didn't have such a broad definition of "pro-bono" but it is really easy to get because everything you do, that isn't for a paying client pretty much, seems to count. 50 hours isn't unreasonable either.


Afaik, they don't have continuing pro bono reqs once admitted.

It's so easy to do pro bono during law school. Volunteer a few weekends for a prisoners rights thing, for instance. Or do a judicial internship or externship (even for credits!), or nearly any other PI related work. A large proportion of 1Ls end up in an eligible position during the summer. It's really not a difficult requirement, and it's just the 50 hours for admission and nothing more.

HonestAdvice wrote:The pass rate isn't because the test has gotten harder - it's a school problem, not a bar problem. The pro bono requirement is unfair, because not all students have the same access. If you get public service you have thousands of pro bono hours at your disposal, same for big law with the caveat most places cap at 100 or so. If you're jobless then the easiest path is to go on craigslist and find one of the many ads to pay 1000s of dollars to get pro bono hours. The new requirement has had the unintended effect (presumably) of subsidizing many sketchy unethical solos. Financing predatory solos is really the biggest effect the new rule has had - how much does someone with 0 experience and minimal competence working one 50 hour week really help a client? How many clients are worse off because of this dumb rule? I wouldn't be surprised if the requirement was implemented by some struggling solo on the bar committee looking to boost profits.

I assume the point is mainly to instill a sense of public service. Lots of high schools require volunteer hours to graduate. I just see it as an extension of that. I don't think it's that great of a burden given that it's spread out over three years. Generally the assumption is that most people will complete it while in school.

Avian wrote:

HonestAdvice wrote:The pass rate isn't because the test has gotten harder - it's a school problem, not a bar problem. The pro bono requirement is unfair, because not all students have the same access. If you get public service you have thousands of pro bono hours at your disposal, same for big law with the caveat most places cap at 100 or so. If you're jobless then the easiest path is to go on craigslist and find one of the many ads to pay 1000s of dollars to get pro bono hours. The new requirement has had the unintended effect (presumably) of subsidizing many sketchy unethical solos. Financing predatory solos is really the biggest effect the new rule has had - how much does someone with 0 experience and minimal competence working one 50 hour week really help a client? How many clients are worse off because of this dumb rule? I wouldn't be surprised if the requirement was implemented by some struggling solo on the bar committee looking to boost profits.

I assume the point is mainly to instill a sense of public service. Lots of high schools require volunteer hours to graduate. I just see it as an extension of that. I don't think it's that great of a burden given that it's spread out over three years. Generally the assumption is that most people will complete it while in school.

Hadn't taken clinics into account. That's a good point. I didn't have a problem with it, but I saw a craigslist ad when perusing ATL months ago that got me upset - there's got to be at least some market for it. It still bothers me because it goes back to the elitist nature of the profession - helping your former little league coach who now has Altzheimers go grocery shopping or walking a homeless person who still has his wits about him learn about social services and the options available to him are worth 10000x more than helping random people who may have real needs but may also just be middle class folks who are clever at filling out forms.

Forcing people to do 50 hours won't give them a giving spirit for 30 years - that's ridiculous. If they want to force pro bono on anybody, let them make the partners making millions of dollars who can actually help do pro bono - it's like if we had a military draft, but only sent babies to the battlefield because we're afraid of upsetting the teenagers and young adults and figured it will be good for them because it will force them to improve their walking and hand eye coordination quickly, and would bring em up with a spirit of giving to their country.

Maybe people trying to get admitted in New York after law school, maybe after taking (or failing) another bar, who didn't fulfill the requirement in LS because they didn't intend to end up in New York.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Maybe people trying to get admitted in New York after law school, maybe after taking (or failing) another bar, who didn't fulfill the requirement in LS because they didn't intend to end up in New York.

Do you know if the 50 pro bono hours are time limited?

sublime wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Maybe people trying to get admitted in New York after law school, maybe after taking (or failing) another bar, who didn't fulfill the requirement in LS because they didn't intend to end up in New York.

Do you know if the 50 pro bono hours are time limited?

No, I don't know anything about it. But I would think there are plenty of people who wouldn't have lined up the pro bono hours during school if they didn't originally intend to get admitted in NY. (I'm thinking especially of people who work/go part time.)

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

sublime wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Maybe people trying to get admitted in New York after law school, maybe after taking (or failing) another bar, who didn't fulfill the requirement in LS because they didn't intend to end up in New York.

Do you know if the 50 pro bono hours are time limited?

No, I don't know anything about it. But I would think there are plenty of people who wouldn't have lined up the pro bono hours during school if they didn't originally intend to get admitted in NY. (I'm thinking especially of people who work/go part time.)

Yea, that's probably true.

Idk, I just feel lik for traditional students, most will accidentally hit it between 1L summer, clinic, externships, and even pro bono work at firms.

ETA: And even if they did't, 50 isn't exactly onerous.

What kind of paperwork do you need to submit? I never got my unpaid stuff certified as part of my school's public service hours because I didn't want to bother making employers fill out paperwork.

I also think there's a slightly shocking number of people (even on TLS) who don't do clinics or externships.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:What kind of paperwork do you need to submit? I never got my unpaid stuff certified as part of my school's public service hours because I didn't want to bother making employers fill out paperwork.

I also think there's a slightly shocking number of people (even on TLS) who don't do clinics or externships.

Afaik just a form/affadavit.

My firm wanted me to do it, but as an idiot, I put it off.

Also, i don't even know if they have to be legal hours.

ETA: Yea, they do: https://www.nycourts.gov/attorneys/prob ... ission.pdf