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Looking for some advice that I know is really more of a personal decision. I'm about to have to make the choice between two firms. Both are in the "BigLaw" category but one is much larger than the other. The smaller one is much more of a lifestyle firm and I love the people/work. The larger firm is a pretty typical big Texas firm (>2000 hrs but not killing yourself like NYC). That firm is ok and I like the people and work well enough but it just isn't as good from a lifestyle perspective.

The problem is comepensation and debt. I'll have just shy of $200k at graduation in student loans. The bigger firm pays $180 and the smaller starts at $135. The smaller also has smaller yearly increases and bonuses but has a 6-7 year partner track that is much easier to make.

Would it be stupid financially to take the lower pay? Could I reasonably pay off ~$180k in student loans at the smaller firm while maintaining a decent lifestyle (pretty cheap COL at the smaller place). I'm having a really hard time turning down $45k in the first year alone with my debt load so I'm hoping to get some advice from someone who has been in my shoes and knows what it is like to pay that kind of debt on a lower salary.

Thanks for any advice.

No firm starting you at 135 is truly going to be a "lifestyle firm." You'll not only give up 45 in salary the first year, plus w/e the bonus discrepancy will be, but also give up a lot more every year after that. Just make sure you take that figure into account when making a decision, and be sure the cut is really worth it. (I don't see how it could be given your debt.)

What would you give up in the first three years of practice?

dont drink the kool aid. there are really no "lyfestyle" firms just people tht get lucky and end up in the right practice area o with the right partner. Also no way to predict your workload at the texas BIGLAW firm. it could be 2k hours or 2.5k. If I were u I would take the 180k.

Lincoln wrote:What would you give up in the first three years of practice?

A little over $150k.

Assume for the sake of argument it really is a lifestyle firm (under 2k billable, people in my practice group really do go home around 6 almost every day and aren't working from home, etc.).

Edit: bad math

Anonymous User wrote:

Lincoln wrote:What would you give up in the first three years of practice?

A little over $100k.

Assume for the sake of argument it really is a lifestyle firm (under 2k billable, people in my practice group really do go home around 6 almost every day and aren't working from home, etc.).

Not like you could really find this from the outside, but I know many people at my BIG MFH NYC firm that have that life.

Take the money.

Take that extra 100k+, pay your 200k student debt back, and buy your "lifestyle" back.

Take the money. To elaborate on what another poster has said, there are no "lifestyle" firms. At any given time any partner can make you their bitch and you have to work all the time at your "lifestyle" firm. I know people at V25 billing 1800-2000 per year and I know people at smaller V100 firms billing 2400-2500. There is no way for you to predict this now. I say take the money and LATERAL to the lifestyle firm later if you decide you are serious about making partner.

Do the $180 firm. The hours difference for the typical associate will be less than you think.

don't look a 180k-in-houston horse in the mouth

There are no NY firms (sans Wachtell maybe?) where associates average >2k hours and I'd be stunned if the Texas BIGLAW firm you describe does either. I think the hours are going to likely be similar at either option and to the extent they aren't, it's going to be outside of your control anyway. There's probably just as good of a chance you get on a deal/case that crushes you at the "lifestyle" firm and you will giving up a great deal of money for the privilege.

Take the money and look to lateral if you can't sustain it - I agree with the above that no firm paying >$100k is going to be a 9-5 haven regardless of what anyone tells you.

Anonymous User wrote:

Lincoln wrote:What would you give up in the first three years of practice?

A little over $150k.

You do you, but that's a lot of money to leave on the table. If I were $100k less in the hole, it'd make a big difference to my stress level and ability to plan for the future.

Lifestyle firms are firms where partners are unable to bring enough work. Rather than own up to it, they pay you less and make you drink the kool aid.

2014 wrote:There are no NY firms (sans Wachtell maybe?) where associates average >2k hours and I'd be stunned if the Texas BIGLAW firm you describe does either. I think the hours are going to likely be similar at either option and to the extent they aren't, it's going to be outside of your control anyway. There's probably just as good of a chance you get on a deal/case that crushes you at the "lifestyle" firm and you will giving up a great deal of money for the privilege.

Take the money and look to lateral if you can't sustain it - I agree with the above that no firm paying >$100k is going to be a 9-5 haven regardless of what anyone tells you.

Not sure I agree with the bolded, but I otherwise cosign this advice. OP, take the money now, lateral later.

i heard that it's not the size of the law that counts it's how you use it

Go with the 180, sorry. Just within the first years, you're leaving 150k+ on the table.

Partnership opps are irrelevant, you can lateral to a similar lifestyle firm afterwards.

And this is precisely why mid-tier firms will eventually have to match/raise -- no way debt-straddled students are going leave this much money on the table because of "fit". I wonder how many firms will budge just before OCI.

2014 wrote:There are no NY firms (sans Wachtell maybe?) where associates average >2k hours and I'd be stunned if the Texas BIGLAW firm you describe does either. I think the hours are going to likely be similar at either option and to the extent they aren't, it's going to be outside of your control anyway. There's probably just as good of a chance you get on a deal/case that crushes you at the "lifestyle" firm and you will giving up a great deal of money for the privilege.

Take the money and look to lateral if you can't sustain it - I agree with the above that no firm paying >$100k is going to be a 9-5 haven regardless of what anyone tells you.

I agree with your general advice, but argue that 100k at 9-5 IS possible.

I summered at a midlaw firm and then worked as a law clerk at a firm that had this exact set up. Everyone out of the office by 6 M-Th, and on fridays people were gone by 5, even 4:30 at times. Affordable housing/Real estate boutique. All in after bonuses for 1st years was around 110.

edit: sorry, I didn't see you wrote NY. this wasn't in NY.

Anonymous User wrote:

2014 wrote:There are no NY firms (sans Wachtell maybe?) where associates average >2k hours and I'd be stunned if the Texas BIGLAW firm you describe does either. I think the hours are going to likely be similar at either option and to the extent they aren't, it's going to be outside of your control anyway. There's probably just as good of a chance you get on a deal/case that crushes you at the "lifestyle" firm and you will giving up a great deal of money for the privilege.

Take the money and look to lateral if you can't sustain it - I agree with the above that no firm paying >$100k is going to be a 9-5 haven regardless of what anyone tells you.

I agree with your general advice, but argue that 100k at 9-5 IS possible.

I summered at a midlaw firm and then worked as a law clerk at a firm that had this exact set up. Everyone out of the office by 6 M-Th, and on fridays people were gone by 5, even 4:30 at times. Affordable housing/Real estate boutique. All in after bonuses for 1st years was around 110.

edit: sorry, I didn't see you wrote NY. this wasn't in NY.

I worked at a firm like that, too, but everyone was checking in and working later at night and on the weekends. There were some refugees from true biglaw there, and I think it was much preferred to the kind of place where you had to sit in the office till 10 because that's when the partner you worked for was there, but the work definitely wasn't limited to 9 to 5.

quiver wrote:

2014 wrote:There are no NY firms (sans Wachtell maybe?) where associates average >2k hours and I'd be stunned if the Texas BIGLAW firm you describe does either. I think the hours are going to likely be similar at either option and to the extent they aren't, it's going to be outside of your control anyway. There's probably just as good of a chance you get on a deal/case that crushes you at the "lifestyle" firm and you will giving up a great deal of money for the privilege.

Take the money and look to lateral if you can't sustain it - I agree with the above that no firm paying >$100k is going to be a 9-5 haven regardless of what anyone tells you.

Not sure I agree with the bolded, but I otherwise cosign this advice. OP, take the money now, lateral later.

Firms often disclose their averages in their state of the unions and the data for peer groups is aggregated by some bank (Citi I think?) and given to firms (and maybe published). Between mine and friends' firms, I don't know a single one with a stated average of even 1900. Stats are only as good as the data behind them of course, but still.

To the OP: I would take the 180k, as others have mentioned.

I am a first year at a biglaw firm but had the choice to do midsize regional firm in a smaller market for 120k. I chose the bigger firm and am happy with the decision. Anecdotal, but i one of my friends at the midsize firm works roughly the same and possibly more than I do. Cost of living is better in the smaller market but I heard from many people (and TLS) it's much easier to go biglaw -> midsize law than the other way around.

2014 wrote:

quiver wrote:

2014 wrote:There are no NY firms (sans Wachtell maybe?) where associates average >2k hours and I'd be stunned if the Texas BIGLAW firm you describe does either. I think the hours are going to likely be similar at either option and to the extent they aren't, it's going to be outside of your control anyway. There's probably just as good of a chance you get on a deal/case that crushes you at the "lifestyle" firm and you will giving up a great deal of money for the privilege.

Take the money and look to lateral if you can't sustain it - I agree with the above that no firm paying >$100k is going to be a 9-5 haven regardless of what anyone tells you.

Not sure I agree with the bolded, but I otherwise cosign this advice. OP, take the money now, lateral later.

Firms often disclose their averages in their state of the unions and the data for peer groups is aggregated by some bank (Citi I think?) and given to firms (and maybe published). Between mine and friends' firms, I don't know a single one with a stated average of even 1900. Stats are only as good as the data behind them of course, but still.

Fair enough. I'm pretty sure my NYC biglaw firm averaged over 2000 when I was there a couple years ago (from info in our state of the firm), but maybe I'm misremembering.

In any case, OP should go for the 180k.

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