3.0X GPA, How Screwed Am I? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I’m at 3.0X after two semesters at a T14 with a 3.3 curve. I have extensive government and public-interest work experience and have been told I interview very well. I don’t have plans to do law review, but I will do some sort of externship or legal clinic in the fall.
From what I’ve read on here – my OCI strategy should be to bid conservatively on NYC firms that are less grade selective and have large class sizes.

My main question is: Are Big Fed/US Attorney’s/DA Offices out of the question? If I take the relevant coursework like Administrative Law/Evidence/Criminal Procedure and interview well, would I have a shot at any of these places? Are any of these places willing to forgo a garbage pail GPA if I can demonstrate enthusiasm and commitment?

[HonestAdvice]

I’m at 3.0X after two semesters at a T14 with a 3.3 curve. I have extensive government and public-interest work experience and have been told I interview very well. I don’t have plans to do law review, but I will do some sort of externship or legal clinic in the fall.
From what I’ve read on here – my OCI strategy should be to bid conservatively on NYC firms that are less grade selective and have large class sizes.

My main question is: Are Big Fed/US Attorney’s/DA Offices out of the question? If I take the relevant coursework like Administrative Law/Evidence/Criminal Procedure and interview well, would I have a shot at any of these places? Are any of these places willing to forgo a garbage pail GPA if I can demonstrate enthusiasm and commitment?

For sure. You go to a school where just being above a 3 gives you shot assuming you interview very well. Most people think they interview well, and you aren't always getting honest feedback like you are with exams. A B- is a B- any way you cut it where as most people are polite, and will be friendly even if they think you're a gigantic weirdo while people who think highly of you will generally tell you they think highly of you so people can naturally be overconfident.

[Anonymous User]

I’m at 3.0X after two semesters at a T14 with a 3.3 curve. I have extensive government and public-interest work experience and have been told I interview very well. I don’t have plans to do law review, but I will do some sort of externship or legal clinic in the fall.
From what I’ve read on here – my OCI strategy should be to bid conservatively on NYC firms that are less grade selective and have large class sizes.

My main question is: Are Big Fed/US Attorney’s/DA Offices out of the question? If I take the relevant coursework like Administrative Law/Evidence/Criminal Procedure and interview well, would I have a shot at any of these places? Are any of these places willing to forgo a garbage pail GPA if I can demonstrate enthusiasm and commitment?

For sure. You go to a school where just being above a 3 gives you shot assuming you interview very well. Most people think they interview well, and you aren't always getting honest feedback like you are with exams. A B- is a B- any way you cut it where as most people are polite, and will be friendly even if they think you're a gigantic weirdo while people who think highly of you will generally tell you they think highly of you so people can naturally be overconfident.

Thank you for your honest advice

[L’Étranger]

Which T14?

[Anonymous User]

Which T14?

Duke

[andythefir]

My main question is: Are Big Fed/US Attorney’s/DA Offices out of the question? If I take the relevant coursework like Administrative Law/Evidence/Criminal Procedure and interview well, would I have a shot at any of these places? Are any of these places willing to forgo a garbage pail GPA if I can demonstrate enthusiasm and commitment?

Huge distinctions between those 3. I have no experience with Big Fed hiring, but getting an AUSA straight out of law school doesn't happen unless your dad runs the office and is willing to bend the rules. If your question is whether you will ever get an AUSA gig, that's very different. Most people with bad grades after 1L who care will eventually bring them up due to relaxed curves/relaxed people on the curve. As for DAs offices, if you're willing to move around, you can get a job with any GPA and a bar card. If you're looking for more selective/prestigious DAs offices, then I again can't help you.

[Anonymous User]

My main question is: Are Big Fed/US Attorney’s/DA Offices out of the question? If I take the relevant coursework like Administrative Law/Evidence/Criminal Procedure and interview well, would I have a shot at any of these places? Are any of these places willing to forgo a garbage pail GPA if I can demonstrate enthusiasm and commitment?

Huge distinctions between those 3. I have no experience with Big Fed hiring, but getting an AUSA straight out of law school doesn't happen unless your dad runs the office and is willing to bend the rules. If your question is whether you will ever get an AUSA gig, that's very different. Most people with bad grades after 1L who care will eventually bring them up due to relaxed curves/relaxed people on the curve. As for DAs offices, if you're willing to move around, you can get a job with any GPA and a bar card. If you're looking for more selective/prestigious DAs offices, then I again can't help you.

Thank you for your candid opinion.

[intlsplitr]

2016 Duke grad here. A couple Duke profs did a program in the spring about getting an AUSA position. To distill it down they said you need a clerkship plus 3-5 years experience in BigLaw or as an ADA to be competitive. They both came from big city offices though, so that might not be the case everywhere, but it's a pretty good guide. Big Fed, depending on what agency you are looking at, is at least as competitive as BigLaw, plus they want to see demonstrated interest. ADA should be do-able (even if your grades dont improve, which they absolutely could), as long as you can show interest in the field and are not super picky about your location. Make sure to take all of the relevant courses (Admin, both CrimPro classes, maybe corporate crime), do a defense-side clinic, and do an externship with a local DA office or the EDNC USAO to get hands-on experience.

Feel free to PM if you want to discuss.

[fauxpsych]

My main question is: Are Big Fed/US Attorney’s/DA Offices out of the question?

I just got hired at an NYC DA office. Grades matter very little compared to a demonstrated commitment to becoming a prosecutor. My GPA was terrible and I was at a much, much lower ranked school. I just hustled at volunteer positions/internships from 1L summer until I was hired.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Sucks we're in this position, but it's nice to know I'm not alone. ETA: also at Duke

[Anonymous User]

2016 Duke grad here. A couple Duke profs did a program in the spring about getting an AUSA position. To distill it down they said you need a clerkship plus 3-5 years experience in BigLaw or as an ADA to be competitive. They both came from big city offices though, so that might not be the case everywhere, but it's a pretty good guide. Big Fed, depending on what agency you are looking at, is at least as competitive as BigLaw, plus they want to see demonstrated interest. ADA should be do-able (even if your grades dont improve, which they absolutely could), as long as you can show interest in the field and are not super picky about your location. Make sure to take all of the relevant courses (Admin, both CrimPro classes, maybe corporate crime), do a defense-side clinic, and do an externship with a local DA office or the EDNC USAO to get hands-on experience.

Feel free to PM if you want to discuss.

I'm not picky with location, as long as it isn't completely rural in the middle of nowhere. I'd absolutely be fine working in a place like Raleigh or Durham. How strict are DA's with geographical ties? Do NC employers really hate Duke grads as much as everyone keeps telling me?

[Anonymous User]

OP. Sucks we're in this position, but it's nice to know I'm not alone. ETA: also at Duke

Nothing to do about it now but hone up on interviewing and nail next year.

[andythefir]

I'm not picky with location, as long as it isn't completely rural in the middle of nowhere. I'd absolutely be fine working in a place like Raleigh or Durham. How strict are DA's with geographical ties? Do NC employers really hate Duke grads as much as everyone keeps telling me?

I hope it works out for you, but if you have to get a job in a specific location, then you're going to have a hard time. Complete rural middle of nowhere are where they need attorneys the most, in part because that's where there's substantially less competition. I have no idea about NC employers and Duke, but I've seen multiple hiring cycles in the rural mountain west, and it's a completely different beast from what your CSO is telling you.

[intlsplitr]

2016 Duke grad here. A couple Duke profs did a program in the spring about getting an AUSA position. To distill it down they said you need a clerkship plus 3-5 years experience in BigLaw or as an ADA to be competitive. They both came from big city offices though, so that might not be the case everywhere, but it's a pretty good guide. Big Fed, depending on what agency you are looking at, is at least as competitive as BigLaw, plus they want to see demonstrated interest. ADA should be do-able (even if your grades dont improve, which they absolutely could), as long as you can show interest in the field and are not super picky about your location. Make sure to take all of the relevant courses (Admin, both CrimPro classes, maybe corporate crime), do a defense-side clinic, and do an externship with a local DA office or the EDNC USAO to get hands-on experience.

Feel free to PM if you want to discuss.

I'm not picky with location, as long as it isn't completely rural in the middle of nowhere. I'd absolutely be fine working in a place like Raleigh or Durham. How strict are DA's with geographical ties? Do NC employers really hate Duke grads as much as everyone keeps telling me?

Not really sure as to how strict DAs offices are about ties. And yes, NC employers really do hate Duke grads, at least on the private side. It is extremely difficult to get NC 'biglaw' from Duke, even with excellent grades and strong ties. I think it comes down to the fact that UNC/Wake have strong alumni networks, and there just are not very many Duke grads in NC. It might be different for PI though; I am not really sure.

[Anonymous User]

My main question is: Are Big Fed/US Attorney’s/DA Offices out of the question? If I take the relevant coursework like Administrative Law/Evidence/Criminal Procedure and interview well, would I have a shot at any of these places? Are any of these places willing to forgo a garbage pail GPA if I can demonstrate enthusiasm and commitment?

My friend got the same gpa at a much lower ranked school.but got a callback interview at a V30 firm. He got the screener through lottery and hit right on point during the interview. He also has a good work experience. Keep trying. I am sure you have a shot, although the journey may be long until or after graduation. Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not picky with location, as long as it isn't completely rural in the middle of nowhere. I'd absolutely be fine working in a place like Raleigh or Durham. How strict are DA's with geographical ties? Do NC employers really hate Duke grads as much as everyone keeps telling me?

I hope it works out for you, but if you have to get a job in a specific location, then you're going to have a hard time. Complete rural middle of nowhere are where they need attorneys the most, in part because that's where there's substantially less competition. I have no idea about NC employers and Duke, but I've seen multiple hiring cycles in the rural mountain west, and it's a completely different beast from what your CSO is telling you.

Could you speak to those hiring cycles in the rural mountain west? What do you mean by a completely different beast? I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this.

[TFALAWL]

BigFed is out, but DA office in medium-size city is likely, especially if you network. Do you have ties to the deep south? There are some district courts that really don't give a shit about grades, and that + state DA could propel you to AUSA down the line, not to mention your grades could improve over the next two years so clerking two-three years out of school isn't out of the picture.

Biglaw -- your chances are slim, but I've seen crazier things happen.

[Anonymous User]

I had a 3.1 at a peer T14 after 1L. Here's the problem with your OCI approach. There are very few NYC firms with big classes that are not grade sensitive. When people say that a firm isn't "grade sensitive," they mean firms that will take median students. I made the mistake of bidding on many of these firms, when the reality is they can pick up median students at any of the T14. Just focus on bidding on firms with lower standards, no matter what city they're in. (And sure, there are a good number in NYC, but don't think NYC = job by any stretch.)

I think you will have better luck pursuing firms in secondary markets where you have ties. T14 can go far in some markets, even with your grades.

Gear up to mass mail and expect to be applying/interviewing into late October. I think you will get something if you hustle.

Try to stay positive.

Edit: One piece of advice if it's not too late: take a summer class, or get graded credit for your 1L summer job. I didn't get my grade until well after OCI, but being able to update firms with a GPA increase resulted in multiple interviews.

[andythefir]

Could you speak to those hiring cycles in the rural mountain west? What do you mean by a completely different beast? I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this.

In my neck of the woods, the average person stays maybe 18 months. Some much longer, some much shorter. I am now in my 2nd judicial district in rural New Mexico, and I have participated in hiring decisions in both. In both, the DA will advertise in the state's bar bulletin for a position when one becomes available. There will be maybe 2 resumes for every position, and 1 of those will be completely un-hirable for one reason or another (never passed the bar, fired from every prior job, 3 years out of law school and never worked anywhere in the law). We were thisclose to hiring a guy who was dead last in his class and had never passed the bar, but was planning to sit in a few months. One district has created a pipeline to Cooley and regularly hires out of there. Seriously, bar card=job if you're willing to move.

[Anonymous User]

Could you speak to those hiring cycles in the rural mountain west? What do you mean by a completely different beast? I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this.

In my neck of the woods, the average person stays maybe 18 months. Some much longer, some much shorter. I am now in my 2nd judicial district in rural New Mexico, and I have participated in hiring decisions in both. In both, the DA will advertise in the state's bar bulletin for a position when one becomes available. There will be maybe 2 resumes for every position, and 1 of those will be completely un-hirable for one reason or another (never passed the bar, fired from every prior job, 3 years out of law school and never worked anywhere in the law). We were thisclose to hiring a guy who was dead last in his class and had never passed the bar, but was planning to sit in a few months. One district has created a pipeline to Cooley and regularly hires out of there. Seriously, bar card=job if you're willing to move.

So that's really interesting. What do the opportunities for growth look like? Do people transition to regional government/private practice work or do they pick up and settle somewhere else?

I

[andythefir]

So that's really interesting. What do the opportunities for growth look like? Do people transition to regional government/private practice work or do they pick up and settle somewhere else?

You have to be more specific in what you mean by growth. You can get your fill of trials and grow a lot as a trial attorney, although they have diminishing returns after a few years. Especially in the truly far-flung towns good leaders are very hard to come by, which means that (1) you're not going to get good mentorship in taking the next step as an attorney/person and (2) the people that are in middle management will often be the people who have stuck it out the longest because they have the fewest other options. Then there's a DA election and everything is up in the air. I personally don't see myself as a lifer in rural DA offices, but it's also a lot better than unemployment.

As far as exit options, I've worked with 2 folks who left for AUSA jobs, a handful who left for small civil firms, and a couple who opened their own criminal defense shop. I think a few have pivoted to small town government, but the bulk will move around DAs offices if/when they leave.

[Anonymous User]

You would definitely have a shot at major DA offices coming from Duke. I think the rural mountain advice is decent for an unemployed 3L, but you're not there yet. Agree that secondary markets are a much safer bet than NYC. There are like 4 firms in New York that will take T14 people in the 3.0-3.1 range, and dozens of people in your situation are competing for those spots.

Also, I'm not sure when the Hong Kong/Geneva programs start, but you should do everything in your power to enroll.

[SplitMyPants]

Don't discount the value of practice interviews to get as much feedback as possible, notwithstanding being told you're a good interviewer.

[TheRealSantaClaus]

.

[Anonymous User]

Agree that secondary markets are a much safer bet than NYC. There are like 4 firms in New York that will take T14 people in the 3.0-3.1 range, and dozens of people in your situation are competing for those spots.

Bad advice. There are plenty of NYC firms, even good ones, that take a bunch of below median T14 students. It would not be surprising to see OP get multiple callbacks if he/she interviews well and bids smartly in NY. Your argument that there are lots of people competing for spots is moot when you consider that the class sizes are relatively massive.

Still stand by this, based on my experience/anecdotal evidence/Duke career center resources. There are always exceptions, but I can't see a 3.0 from Duke getting many (if any) NYC options. Firms with massive classes seem to want at least median. Not saying OP shouldn't try--just saying they shouldn't rely on NY