Top Law Schools

I just finished law school and will be starting as an associate at a large law firm this fall. I did really well in law school and really well in undergrad as an accounting & finance major. I want to believe that because I was successful in school, I will be successful as an attorney, but I know that is not always true. So I wanted to get the opinion of others as to why some people who were successful in school fail as attorneys.

Anonymous User wrote:I just finished law school and will be starting as an associate at a large law firm this fall. I did really well in law school and really well in undergrad as an accounting & finance major. I want to believe that because I was successful in school, I will be successful as an attorney, but I know that is not always true. So I wanted to get the opinion of others as to why some people who were successful in school fail as attorneys.

Ego - too much
Drive - not enough

What in the world does it mean to "fail as an attorney"? That's such a vague question. The only sure fire way I know of to "fail as an attorney" is to fail the bar exam. So for those people I'd say that was caused by not scoring high enough on the MBE or the state specific portions of their bar exam.

Not a lawyer, but from what ive seen as a para and from speaking withfriends, my guess would be that the ability to master esoteric legal concepts doesn't necessarily translate into the ability to endure hours upon hours of mentally exhausting drudgery. I'm sure top graders are great legal minds who would be great at working through legal arguments for a trial. But between that moment and law school there is so much mundane but strenuous work that may break down the student. Also, people in law school can plan for their time and how to go about studying for exam. The working world doesn't have that kind of timing.

So many reasons but there's probably a decent enough correlation between success in law school and success in practice.

Probably because there's more to the practice of law than timed, closed book, issue spotting.

<5% of my day-to-day job as an attorney involves any skills even addressed in law school. Interpersonal dynamics, paper/time/information management, and attention to detail are the overwhelming majority of tasks attorneys do. Thinking big thoughts and creatively working with fuzzy precedent, which is what law school is all about, almost never happens.

They involve vastly different skills. It'd be like asking why many engineers would make for shitty mechanics or why a lot of art history majors would suck at making art.

Doing well in law school just isn't that impressive, from a professional and skills standpoint. Successful lawyering requires different skills, and more skills overall. Imagine a typical venn diagram with limited overlap; the practice circle would be much bigger than the school circle.

exactly this:

andythefir wrote:<5% of my day-to-day job as an attorney involves any skills even addressed in law school. Interpersonal dynamics, paper/time/information management, and attention to detail are the overwhelming majority of tasks attorneys do. Thinking big thoughts and creatively working with fuzzy precedent, which is what law school is all about, almost never happens.

And this:

smallfirmassociate wrote:They involve vastly different skills. It'd be like asking why many engineers would make for shitty mechanics or why a lot of art history majors would suck at making art.

Doing well in law school just isn't that impressive, from a professional and skills standpoint. Successful lawyering requires different skills, and more skills overall. Imagine a typical venn diagram with limited overlap; the practice circle would be much bigger than the school circle.

except for maybe the bolded, depending on that you do

Also, a ton of top law students haven't ever held down a job before, or done anything but be a student for that matter.

I blame the liberal media, pornography and Barack Hussein Obama. At the performance review, I was told it was a lack of attention to detail, constantly smelling like a pig who spend 6 hours rolling around in whiskey-infused mud and a general aura of incompetence that hovers around me at all times. It goes without saying that they agreed the problem was really Obama, but were trying to P.C.

Define failing.

Additional skills are needed to succeed in the practice of law versus doing well in law school. For the most part, one can control responsibilities as a student, while real world pressures are often beyond one's control & much less predictable.

CanadianWolf wrote:Additional skills are needed to succeed in the practice of law versus doing well in law school. For the most part, one can control responsibilities as a student, while real world pressures are often beyond one's control & much less predictable.

You're also not permitted to sleep with clients unless you had a prior sexual relationship before the attorney-client relationship attaches. While simple enough to spot on the MPRE, in reality it greatly disadvantages every lawyer who is an attorney by day and gigolo by night, which thanks to the advent of online law schools represents an ever increasing percentage of the bar. The takeaway practice tip here for all those aspiring to be lawyers by day and foxes by night is to always handle the gigolo business before the legal business.

reasonable_man wrote:Define failing.

Failing as in being above average compared to your peers in law school and then being below average compared to the same caliber individuals at a law firm.

Anonymous User wrote:

reasonable_man wrote:Define failing.

Failing as in being above average compared to your peers in law school and then being below average compared to the same caliber individuals at a law firm.

Sean Parker never went to college, and had a criminal record in high school and became a billionaire. Jeff Bezos was summa cum laude at Princeton earning 2 hard science degrees. You're confused as to why some lawyers who got a B in The Principles of 17th century Eastern-West Indie Botany law do better than some people who got an A?

In addition to the skills differences mentioned above, you shouldn't forget that luck may have a large role in how successful your initial biglaw career is.

Get stuck with bad partners, a base case, or a slow practice group? You'll likely be out by year 3, if not earlier. If you get in with tolerable partners and a hot group, you might make service partner (if you want to). If the economy hits the skids like 2009 and you're relatively new to the firm, all bets are off.

Especially as a junior you have a lot less control over your fate than you might think before starting at a firm.

Anonymous User wrote:

reasonable_man wrote:Define failing.

Failing as in being above average compared to your peers in law school and then being below average compared to the same caliber individuals at a law firm.

that's a dumb definition, but reasons that former good students become bad lawyers are very varied

-lack of interpersonal skills
-lack of time management
-poor attention to detail
-laziness

real lawyering is almost completely unrelated to the skills needed to ace law school exams

Borhas wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

reasonable_man wrote:Define failing.

Failing as in being above average compared to your peers in law school and then being below average compared to the same caliber individuals at a law firm.

that's a dumb definition, but reasons that former good students become bad lawyers are very varied

-lack of interpersonal skills
-lack of time management
-poor attention to detail
-laziness

real lawyering is almost completely unrelated to the skills needed to ace law school exams

I felt lied to when I discovered how important the bolded was. This job was advertised as being stuck in an office never talking to anyone, which sounded perfect.

The reasons a top law student might fail as an attorney are almost all personality-related. Those who work hard and can maintain sanity, amiability, and decorum (at least selectively -- e.g., when interacting with clients) will succeed. The rest are at risk.

Borhas wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

reasonable_man wrote:Define failing.

Failing as in being above average compared to your peers in law school and then being below average compared to the same caliber individuals at a law firm.

that's a dumb definition, but reasons that former good students become bad lawyers are very varied

-lack of interpersonal skills
-lack of time management
-poor attention to detail
-laziness

real lawyering is almost completely unrelated to the skills needed to ace law school exams

a summer recently asked if they had to talk to anyone not in their practice group. i really dont get when this profession shifted from extroverts to people who never want to talk anyone but its pretty crazy to think you can be successful without some interpersonal skills.

Attention to detail and time management are the two primary skills needed in practice. Not the only skills, though. You need to have a ton of tools in your toolbox, ready to use at the drop of a hat. Oh, and regardless of whether you've ever used them before, you have to use them perfectly this time. (Without asking how, though.)

Someone who mentioned luck as a factor was corrected, as well, particularly whether you're group is slow or busy your first year, the only period where it is acceptable to ask questions and even occasionally fuck up.

smallfirmassociate wrote:They involve vastly different skills. It'd be like asking why many engineers would make for shitty mechanics or why a lot of art history majors would suck at making art.

Doing well in law school just isn't that impressive, from a professional and skills standpoint. Successful lawyering requires different skills, and more skills overall. Imagine a typical venn diagram with limited overlap; the practice circle would be much bigger than the school circle.

Correct. VASTLY different. Success as a lawyer past your 6th year becomes heavily reliant on sales and people skills. Partnership prospects are 100% dependent on your ability to generate business. Being awesome at your job may get you to service partner at best, and even then, a firm is likely to promote a less awesome associate but with book of business potential over you.

Success in government (chief of a division bureau) is heavily dependent on people skills as well. Being appointed/promoted is about leveraging the right favors and knowing the right people.