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Can anyone describe their experience (or someone they know) being told to leave or start looking in biglaw? I'm a first year who is constantly messing up and one partner in particular has sent me numerous emails ripping my work apart. I sort of hate it here and want to leave asap, but I want to know what to expect regarding being "fired" in biglaw. I've heard they don't really do firing, but I'm curious to learn more about what they actually do. Any thoughts/advice is appreciated.

i have nothing to add but wanted to let you know I am a fellow big law first year with the same issues and concerns. I have heard rumors at my firm of someone who is on the way out will be put on a three-month improvement plan but no one I talked to has ever heard of it actually happening so could just be an unsubstantiated rumor

If the partner is sending you "numerous" emails ripping your work, that means you keep getting work. Which means you're probably fine.

Also, some partners just roll like this with junior associates. Go out for drinks with mid-level or senior associates who have worked with this particular partner before. You probably will feel better afterward.

No personal or other knowledge but have heard it involves a trap door.

coudn't it be though that the partner is simply trying to rack up billables? if your work was that shitty he/she wouldn't work with you at all i think

As others have said, when you should be worried is when you aren't getting work anymore. If word starts spreading around that you have terrible work product, people just won't give you work. Getting ripped apart by a partner means you are still getting work from that partner.

Be worried if he stops giving you stuff, and suddenly other partners or associates don't have much for you to do either. Once you get a reputation as a bad worker, that will never go away --> need to lateral

As long as you continue getting work, you should be fine. Partners have varying styles of management. Some are just incapable of saying something positive.

DildaMan wrote:As long as you continue getting work, you should be fine. Partners have varying styles of management. Some are just incapable of saying something positive.

Are you putting in enough hours and getting enough face time around the office?

This is usually how it goes in my firm:

1) Hours dry up. You pound the pavement for more work, but none comes your way.

2) Meeting with Partner X to discuss your performance and hours. Better work on turning things around or else we'll have to revisit this!

3) 1-3 months after that, another meeting with Partner X. Looks like things aren't working out here. You have 1-3 months to find a new job.

Edit double post

Echo the above, firms are very passive aggressive.

1. Your work sucks.

2. People stop giving you work.

3. You get a chat about how you need to bill more or you are gone.

4. You ask for work and nobody will give it to you.

5. You are let go for failing to Bill hours.

If you are still billing over 150 hours a month you are fine. Don't care what your circumstances are.

Anonymous User wrote:Echo the above, firms are very passive aggressive.

1. Your work sucks.

2. People stop giving you work.

3. You get a chat about how you need to bill more or you are gone.

4. You ask for work and nobody will give it to you.

5. You are let go for failing to Bill hours.

If you are still billing over 150 hours a month you are fine. Don't care what your circumstances are.

How often does this happen? One out of every ten first years (or so)?

If you wait for The Conversation, its already too late.

The Conversation is your warning gun. The death spiral has already started. Once people don't want to work with you, you get no hours. If you get no hours, they fire you.

The Conversation at most firms is simply a pleasantry (which some firms do not give). When you have your regularly scheduled review, you will be told you tried but its not working and they will say "we" should part ways and you will have some period (1 to 6 months) to find something while they transition the little work you have and pay you.

If people give you work, and yell at you regarding it that is usually not a great sign but its a real warning sign when the next project with that person roles in and your not on it, and the next, and the next, etc.

Being "fired" from a v50 law firm is usually a weird dance of passive aggressiveness.

Generally 5th years and up, who are up and outed, can still be billing and be told to leave. If you are under a 5th, from everything I have seen (apart from firm wide layoff) your departure is purely: "hours dry up = you get fired".

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Echo the above, firms are very passive aggressive.

1. Your work sucks.

2. People stop giving you work.

3. You get a chat about how you need to bill more or you are gone.

4. You ask for work and nobody will give it to you.

5. You are let go for failing to Bill hours.

If you are still billing over 150 hours a month you are fine. Don't care what your circumstances are.

How often does this happen? One out of every ten first years (or so)?

Very firm/group/economy specific

It was a little different at my firm, maybe because they were busy so at the time that they needed the help even if they didn't think the help was that good. The associate would get a few warnings, and people would hear about the associate's reputation for bad work, but they'd still get work. Then, one day, some error would be considered the straw that broke the camel's back, and the associate would get fired with 3 months pay and 3 (maybe 6) months on the website. It was my opinion that once you're branded as doing bad work there was no turning back; errors that would be no big deal if someone else made them would all of a sudden be an outrage.

kellyfrost wrote:

DildaMan wrote:As long as you continue getting work, you should be fine. Partners have varying styles of management. Some are just incapable of saying something positive.

Are you putting in enough hours and getting enough face time around the office?

Yes on both. I'm actually trying to limit the hours I spend in on weekends.

If you're being yelled at face to face instead of through e-mail is there a difference (i.e. is the yeller trying to protect you?) My thought process was they'd never send angry e-mails because of unnecessary risk, but if this is a thing then maybe all's good.

Anonymous User wrote:If you're being yelled at face to face instead of through e-mail is there a difference (i.e. is the yeller trying to protect you?) My thought process was they'd never send angry e-mails because of unnecessary risk, but if this is a thing then maybe all's good.

What would yelling at someone over email even look like? I worked for one of the most notorious screamers at my firm. When we went through a stressful part of the case, it was daily screaming about stuff in the office or over the phone. I never got much more than passive aggressiveness on emails. He also kept giving me work despite all the screaming, even after that case ended. It was just his way of blowing off steam.

This differs from firm to firm and office to office, but IME the ones you need to watch for aren't the notorious screamers, but the silent, passive-aggressive types for whom work can never be perfect enough and who will use you once or twice, disappear without saying anything about your work or giving feedback, but still savage you in their review and sink your reputation. If this guy is still giving you work, you should do what you can to make him happy but you're not as bad off as you think.

tyroneslothrop1 wrote:No personal or other knowledge but have heard it involves a trap door.

Vaudeville stage-hook, actually.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:If you're being yelled at face to face instead of through e-mail is there a difference (i.e. is the yeller trying to protect you?) My thought process was they'd never send angry e-mails because of unnecessary risk, but if this is a thing then maybe all's good.

What would yelling at someone over email even look like? I worked for one of the most notorious screamers at my firm. When we went through a stressful part of the case, it was daily screaming about stuff in the office or over the phone. I never got much more than passive aggressiveness on emails. He also kept giving me work despite all the screaming, even after that case ended. It was just his way of blowing off steam.

I worked with a partner who was reasonable (although still difficult and critical) in person, but who would call your work "garbage," "trash," "bullshit," "terrible," etc. via email or in track changes on documents.

There is only a problem if you stop getting work. Just suck it up for as long as you can.

Anonymous User wrote:There is only a problem if you stop getting work. Just suck it up for as long as you can.

This is how I am feeling as a first year. The worst I get is passive aggressive emails. But I only want to be here 1-2 more years max so i feel like if I can just "survive" the next 12ish months I'll be ok

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:If you're being yelled at face to face instead of through e-mail is there a difference (i.e. is the yeller trying to protect you?) My thought process was they'd never send angry e-mails because of unnecessary risk, but if this is a thing then maybe all's good.

What would yelling at someone over email even look like? I worked for one of the most notorious screamers at my firm. When we went through a stressful part of the case, it was daily screaming about stuff in the office or over the phone. I never got much more than passive aggressiveness on emails. He also kept giving me work despite all the screaming, even after that case ended. It was just his way of blowing off steam.

This differs from firm to firm and office to office, but IME the ones you need to watch for aren't the notorious screamers, but the silent, passive-aggressive types for whom work can never be perfect enough and who will use you once or twice, disappear without saying anything about your work or giving feedback, but still savage you in their review and sink your reputation. If this guy is still giving you work, you should do what you can to make him happy but you're not as bad off as you think.

This is 100% correct. The silent ones are the ones that you have to watch out for. The silent ones that will throw you under the bus for small mistakes or sometimes when mistakes weren't made. Sometimes when you ask for feedback they will say you did a great job until review time comes around.

I did two years at a V30 and agree completely with everyone in this thread. Unless you do something unforgivable (e.g., light a partner's office on fire), you will never be "fired" from biglaw in the traditional sense. It's sink or swim, and they'll keep you languishing in the office until you've fully sunk -- that is, when you've missed your billable targets for a couple months or more.

Also, even if this one partner trashes you and stops giving you work, it doesn't necessarily mean you're in trouble. You may have the impression that all your partners are tight-knit and see things the same way, but often that's far from the truth. For example, I pissed off one partner at my firm so badly that he kicked me off his case (I dared to put another partner's work above his). I was pretty worried until I learned that nobody else really liked this guy, and in a way, his hating me was a stamp of approval for the majority of other partners. I never had any trouble getting work for 1.5 years after that (until I left for a clerkship) and my life was infinitely better because I didn't have to deal with that jerk anymore.

Since it sounds like you hate your job right now, I would suggest trying to get work from another (friendlier) partner and then phase this guy out of your life, if you can. You'll have to suss out the politics in your office, but you might be able to withdraw from his cases and work full-time for other partners.