For all you Baylor haters out there Forum

[Johann]

You think spending three years of your life and borrowing $200k to get a $10k raise is smart?

For a kid who wants to practice law, it might be a fine lifestyle decision, but it's pretty clearly a bad financial decision.

I've been over this multiple times. PAYE greatly reduces the risk of 200k loans when the goal is not to be in biglaw. It's 10% of your AGI, which can be planned around, after $17,500 of poverty level income excepted. With that and the personal exception, half of a 50k salary is not due to loans.

It's also an investment in a career so yeah the 10k salary difference in year 1 doesn't reflect the 60k or more salary difference in year 20.

[zhenders]

Assuming most of the students that attend Baylor had no way of making $40-50k before graduation, I think it's a decent school for what it aims to do. 100% employment 10 months after law school is VERY impressive and a MAJOR improvement to almost all of these kids' lifestyle.

When will TLS grow up and stop citing Big Law numbers for schools where (1) nobody wants biglaw and (2) working as a shitlaw lawyer is a serious improvement to a kid's life.

The people with 168s here turning down 70k jobs who think they are so smart to take out $200k+ to get a salary 100k after tax working 3k hours all in and to pay $25k of that in rent and another 25k in loan payments look a lot dumber than someone laid off from their job making damn near minimum wage at 35k pretax who get a 45k job post tax; pay 8k a year in rent and 2k a year in loans (PAYE).

It sounds like you're not from Texas, friend -- that just isn't how Texas works. If you're from Texas, there's a 5% chance you were born into a family which knows and cares about great schools outside of Texas. Otherwise, there more-or-less exist 5 or 6 schools: Texas, A&M, Baylor, SMU, Tech, and Harvard. If you asked a majority of Texas undergrads how good of a law school Baylor is, they would almost certainly say, "Baylor law is amazing! One of the best, for sure." Texas has a weirdly inflated view of its' schools (football and the public/private distinction are very inflating).

I'd bet there are loads of people at Baylor accepted with no idea what it ranks nationally, many of whom are actually quite affluent and have good undergrad majors and GPAs who would have had plenty of options.

[Anonymous User]

Assuming most of the students that attend Baylor had no way of making $40-50k before graduation, I think it's a decent school for what it aims to do. 100% employment 10 months after law school is VERY impressive and a MAJOR improvement to almost all of these kids' lifestyle.

When will TLS grow up and stop citing Big Law numbers for schools where (1) nobody wants biglaw and (2) working as a shitlaw lawyer is a serious improvement to a kid's life.

The people with 168s here turning down 70k jobs who think they are so smart to take out $200k+ to get a salary 100k after tax working 3k hours all in and to pay $25k of that in rent and another 25k in loan payments look a lot dumber than someone laid off from their job making damn near minimum wage at 35k pretax who get a 45k job post tax; pay 8k a year in rent and 2k a year in loans (PAYE).

You have a really weird impression of TX. Unqualified students are not the ones going to Baylor Law (there's plenty of worse law schools here). There's a ton of people with "good" UG degrees from UT enrolling in Baylor law. I can assure you that most of the Baylor students, at the time of enrollment, want big law and are not aware that they have little realistic shot at getting big law.

They easily could have made $50k right out of school. You could make $50k in Austin driving full-time for Uber. As was pointed out, teaching positions in Dallas pay $40-$50k to start.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

You think spending three years of your life and borrowing $200k to get a $10k raise is smart?

For a kid who wants to practice law, it might be a fine lifestyle decision, but it's pretty clearly a bad financial decision.

I've been over this multiple times. PAYE greatly reduces the risk of 200k loans when the goal is not to be in biglaw. It's 10% of your AGI, which can be planned around, after $17,500 of poverty level income excepted. With that and the personal exception, half of a 50k salary is not due to loans.

It's also an investment in a career so yeah the 10k salary difference in year 1 doesn't reflect the 60k or more salary difference in year 20.

Wait what about tax bombs? I'm genuinely curious, I'm terrible when it comes to my personal finances and assume I'll pay back my loans, but it's always been in the back of my mind.

[dixiecupdrinking]

You think spending three years of your life and borrowing $200k to get a $10k raise is smart?

For a kid who wants to practice law, it might be a fine lifestyle decision, but it's pretty clearly a bad financial decision.

I've been over this multiple times. PAYE greatly reduces the risk of 200k loans when the goal is not to be in biglaw. It's 10% of your AGI, which can be planned around, after $17,500 of poverty level income excepted. With that and the personal exception, half of a 50k salary is not due to loans.

It's also an investment in a career so yeah the 10k salary difference in year 1 doesn't reflect the 60k or more salary difference in year 20.

I know what PAYE is. It doesn't make it prudent to have $200k (with negative amortization, $300-350k) in debt until you're 50.

The whole point is that no, going to a shitty law school not an "investment in a career" for many people.

[Johann]

Assuming most of the students that attend Baylor had no way of making $40-50k before graduation, I think it's a decent school for what it aims to do. 100% employment 10 months after law school is VERY impressive and a MAJOR improvement to almost all of these kids' lifestyle.

When will TLS grow up and stop citing Big Law numbers for schools where (1) nobody wants biglaw and (2) working as a shitlaw lawyer is a serious improvement to a kid's life.

The people with 168s here turning down 70k jobs who think they are so smart to take out $200k+ to get a salary 100k after tax working 3k hours all in and to pay $25k of that in rent and another 25k in loan payments look a lot dumber than someone laid off from their job making damn near minimum wage at 35k pretax who get a 45k job post tax; pay 8k a year in rent and 2k a year in loans (PAYE).

I merely pointed out the 100% employment number is a pretty dubious claim given some of the data on the employment summary. I didn't want some 0L to amble in, look for Baylor-at-sticker confirmation, then skip off to secure the $200K in loans (you later deride for T14 students) without any real ability to pay them back. To respond more particularly to your post:
Under PAYE, only one of the biglawyer and the shitlawyer are paying back their loans. Loans should be thought of as 10% of your salary from here on out. TLS needs to accept this and get with the times. A 200k price tag that is never repaid is not an accurate way of calculating repayment. The lesser of 10% of your earnings over 20 years or your sticker price. Any analysis that doesnt consider this is shitty advise (it's a good thing most of this board is getting into biglaw instead of actually advising clients on decisions.)

Assuming most of the students that attend Baylor had no way of making $40-50k before graduation

Pretty big assumption there
No its not. Why else would they go to law school? I went to one of these schools and not one person turned down a 50k job to pursue law. It's a lot of unemplyoed veterans, laid off people from no-growth jobs, or people who graduated with a poli sci degree and are unemployable outside of starbucks or an admin job making 35k.

I think it's a decent school for what it aims to do

I suppose it could be at the right discount. But It's not about what the school aims to do. It's about what the student wants. What do you think the school aims to do, by the way? Just curious.

Lets get with the times. PAYE builds in a discount to 10% of salary. That discount is always there - scholarship or not. Obviously a scholarship is better because it lets you win the biglaw lottery of low debt high salary, but no one is dorwning in their debt anymore with shitty salaries. It's simply not possible with PAYE and REPAYE in place.

I think the school aims to give people a license into an industry with barriers to entry. They can do with that what they want, which most of the time is be a lawyer in a small town as a solo or work for a small shop as a layer. It aims to provide kids a chance to become middle class in an office job that does not break their back.

100% employment 10 months after law school is VERY impressive

See above. We have no way of knowing how many of these jobs are what the student wanted at all. But yeah, I agree it's impressive not to have one of their 108 graduates mark "unemployed," except for the deferred ones. That's a hell of a lot better than other schools for sure.

It's 100% employment. If you are unemployed, this is a great outcome. My TTT had something like 40% employment in 2011/2012, so this is huge. Not many college programs, including the likes of top tier liberal arts colleges like Williams and Davidson or top publics like UVA are pumping out 100% employed kids. This is VERY impressive for the type of person applying to Baylor.

a MAJOR improvement to almost all of these kids' lifestyle

Bold claim, which you couldn't possibly know.
I wouldn't know exactly. But I have a pretty good idea.

When will TLS grow up and stop citing Big Law numbers for schools where (1) nobody wants biglaw

Well, some want it. In fact, some got it. I wonder if the school had the ability to place every single graduate into a biglaw job—I mean every single one—if the percentage would go up or not? If you think so, then maybe this claim is inaccurate, yeah?
35-65% of these people will leave the law industry completely within 3 years. Of course eveyrone wants a 160k job. Nobody wants biglaw though, especially not these type of people who value work life balance and other hobbies. Again, as someone who went to a TTT, it's pretty clear day 1 who wants biglaw. It's usually about 10%. They all work hard. They all get good grade. Some get biglaw. Others get midlaw. The people that do not work hard (90%) do not apply to big firms at any point or ever consider them. I was a top 15% student and didn't even do OCI apply to biglaw because of talking with my peers etc and just not wanting it. Most of law review obviously did OCI and applied to biglaw. But yeah, almost all of these people want government or a small shop to actually litigate or practice law and learn a skill they can open their own shop in. Believe it or not, 2 ladies who were both law review turned down biglaw offers to open their own firm as criminal defense attorneys. I know it's really hard for T14 people to get in this mindset that people don't want biglaw, but its overwhelmingly despised at these types of school. Nobody is impressed by it. Just something to consider if you all want to continue to give advice to people who live a completely different life than you and want completely different things out of life, tailor your advice accordingly.

and (2) working as a shitlaw lawyer is a serious improvement to a kid's life

Again, you have zero way of knowing this. It could be true for some. It could be quite the opposite for others, especially with a giant debt albatross draped around them (for which you don't seem concerned).
Not concerned with debt because PAYE. I worked shitlaw for a couple years in law school and full time having to make debt payments. I paid $0 in debt and kept current with my payments because of PAYE. I worked 9-5:30 with no weekends ever, 3 weeks vacation, etc. Many people took similar jobs before transitioning to government or JD advantage jobs that were less stressful. To the extent people regret their law school choice of my peers, it's that they think it didn't add value to their current career. But that's still not the proper way to evaluate an investment. Nobody bitches about their debt (all of us in 200k+). We have loan programs that cover that for us. People go to Europe, Asia, Caribbean every year. People afford their weddings and honeymoons fine. All of these people were unemployed before law school. So I think I have a better idea of knowing this than you, since I have lots of contacts and understand hwo they live now. It's not perfect knowledge, but 5 years out, I think everyone's settled in nicely.

The people with 168s here turning down 70k jobs who think they are so smart to take out $200k+ to get a salary 100k after tax working 3k hours all in and to pay $25k of that in rent and another 25k in loan payments look a lot dumber than someone laid off from their job making damn near minimum wage at 35k pretax who get a 45k job post tax; pay 8k a year in rent and 2k a year in loans (PAYE)

Eh, maybe so. Maybe not. Maybe some people don't want to pay $2k a year in loans on a $200K loan balance. Or even on a $100K loan balance. I guess you'd be content working a job that paid $40-50k for decades with tons of debt hanging over you the whole time as you PAYE'd your way through. Many people wouldn't. I certainly wouldn't advise $200K in loans to the vast majority of people at almost any school (but always situation dependent).

I also love how Baylor Law's just chock full of laid off minimum wage kids who must have been just this side of homeless until they saw the light.

Tl;dr I don't think you understand what someone's life is like after graduating with a 2.5 from Texas A&M with a psychology major. There is nothing for them. If they want to live a decently chill middle class lifestyle, law school is not a terrible choice. Nobody is getting rich out of Baylor law, but not many are getting rich out of NU law. As somone that's seen this play out 5 years down the road, they are living middle class lives working 9-5:30 with no weekends and 3-5 weeks of vacay a year. THere are lots worse outcomes.

Of course, if you have a decent career already, don't go to Baylor; don't go to any law school!

[Eager Beaver]

Assuming most of the students that attend Baylor had no way of making $40-50k before graduation,

Then get a teaching license?

http://tea.texas.gov/interiorpage.aspx?id=25769812519

This. There are far more $35-40K jobs that require less of an investment, time and money wise, than becoming an attorney.

[Johann]

Assuming most of the students that attend Baylor had no way of making $40-50k before graduation,

Then get a teaching license?

http://tea.texas.gov/interiorpage.aspx?id=25769812519

This. There are far more $35-40K jobs that require less of an investment, time and money wise, than becoming an attorney.

They also cap out far lower than shitlaw solo lawyer if you are good at what you do. I think being a lawyer sucks. But that's because I'm really analytical and numbers driven, which doesn't match with law. But being a teacher is a thankless, shitty job for many. So throwing that out there as an option isn't really helpful to people who you know are entrepreneurial and want to be their own boss.

[071816]

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/head ... ployed.ece

"Of the law schools that did improve their placements in these positions, Baylor Law School showed the biggest gains.

The Waco-based school went from placing 76 percent of its 2014 graduates in permanent, full-time positions as lawyers or other professionals 10 months after graduation to placing 87 percent of its 2015 graduates in the same positions. The significant improvement caused Baylor and SMU Dedman School of Law to tie for No. 1 for job placement across the state.

Baylor was also the only law school to have zero unemployed graduates 10 months after graduation."

kindly shut the fuck up

[BigZuck]

I'm not going to touch most of this #johannthread stuff because I promised I wouldn't do it anymore so all I'll say based on what I've seen from Baylor students and grads is that they most certainly aren't the "Not wanting big law, just let me buy a lower middle class lifestyle and I'll be happy" types.

[Johann]

I agree. No one should go to Baylor law wanting to get a biglaw job.

[emkay625]

36 kids placed in jobs with a firm size of 2-10 makes me suspicious....

Edited: although it seems to be that's about what it is (or even higher) every year, so I'm clueless. Disregard.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not going to touch most of this #johannthread stuff because I promised I wouldn't do it anymore so all I'll say based on what I've seen from Baylor students and grads is that they most certainly aren't the "Not wanting big law, just let me buy a lower middle class lifestyle and I'll be happy" types.

I agree with the bolded, but there's a definite self selection out of biglaw for many Baylor students. I knew plenty of them and went to last year's graduation, where I met a solid sample size of graduating 3Ls and discussed what they would be doing.

Most were 100% adamant about trial work, and wanted trial experience very early on, which translated to DA/PD/AG offices, small practices, boutiques, and a few bound for JAG. Their focus was on how much substantive experience they would get (they indoctrinated about this in school) and they mostly believed they would make good money later in life if they paid their dues and got valuable trial experience early in their career.

They're like a big trial lawyers cult.

[Serett]

Guys, it's Baylor. A two-page topic is bad enough; don't make this a national tragedy by getting it to 3.

[BigZuck]

I'm not going to touch most of this #johannthread stuff because I promised I wouldn't do it anymore so all I'll say based on what I've seen from Baylor students and grads is that they most certainly aren't the "Not wanting big law, just let me buy a lower middle class lifestyle and I'll be happy" types.

I agree with the bolded, but there's a definite self selection out of biglaw for many Baylor students. I knew plenty of them and went to last year's graduation, where I met a solid sample size of graduating 3Ls and discussed what they would be doing.

Most were 100% adamant about trial work, and wanted trial experience very early on, which translated to DA/PD/AG offices, small practices, boutiques, and a few bound for JAG. Their focus was on how much substantive experience they would get (they indoctrinated about this in school) and they mostly believed they would make good money later in life if they paid their dues and got valuable trial experience early in their career.

They're like a big trial lawyers cult.

...is this anon because you don't want anyone to know that you went to a Baylor graduation?

I agree about the cultishness stuff, there's a lot of pride surrounding the RIGOR in a stockholm syndrome-y kind of way. I could see there being some degree of self-selection out of big law, but I don't think it's much more than at a place like UT (so, a very small percentage of the class). Let's be real, the vast, vast majority of kids in law school aren't there for any particular reason and would jump at the opportunity to make 100K+. I think there are some folks at Baylor who are very much of the "Actually, I will be eating BIG LAWYERS' lunch cuz practice court!" but that bravado is more based on stockholm/that's all there is to fall back on rather than a genuine self-selection out of DAT $$$$$$$$$.

I think we agree on a lot of levels but where you say "Many" are genuinely opting out I would only say "Some"

Guys, it's Baylor. A two-page topic is bad enough; don't make this a national tragedy by getting it to 3.

I think this guy is on to something

[Anonymous User]

...is this anon because you don't want anyone to know that you went to a Baylor graduation?

Well I'm not proud of it.....

I'm at a school on one of the coasts and this would def out me. And be embarrassing.

[californiauser]

Baylor's COA is more expensive than my T10's...

Baylor is almost always a bad decision, regardless of the improvements it made this year. It's way overpriced and in a terrible location.

tl;dr retake for UT

[Johann]

Baylor's COA is more expensive than my T10's...

Baylor is almost always a bad decision, regardless of the improvements it made this year. It's way overpriced and in a terrible location.

tl;dr retake for UT

a 60k salary with an average amount of deferred income pays $1.5k a year in loans. nobody in finance would consider that an overpriced degree.

[84651846190]

Baylor has a law school?

[kellyfrost]

Assuming most of the students that attend Baylor had no way of making $40-50k before graduation, I think it's a decent school for what it aims to do. 100% employment 10 months after law school is VERY impressive and a MAJOR improvement to almost all of these kids' lifestyle.

When will TLS grow up and stop citing Big Law numbers for schools where (1) nobody wants biglaw and (2) working as a shitlaw lawyer is a serious improvement to a kid's life.

The people with 168s here turning down 70k jobs who think they are so smart to take out $200k+ to get a salary 100k after tax working 3k hours all in and to pay $25k of that in rent and another 25k in loan payments look a lot dumber than someone laid off from their job making damn near minimum wage at 35k pretax who get a 45k job post tax; pay 8k a year in rent and 2k a year in loans (PAYE).

I merely pointed out the 100% employment number is a pretty dubious claim given some of the data on the employment summary. I didn't want some 0L to amble in, look for Baylor-at-sticker confirmation, then skip off to secure the $200K in loans (you later deride for T14 students) without any real ability to pay them back. To respond more particularly to your post:

Assuming most of the students that attend Baylor had no way of making $40-50k before graduation

Pretty big assumption there

I think it's a decent school for what it aims to do

I suppose it could be at the right discount. But It's not about what the school aims to do. It's about what the student wants. What do you think the school aims to do, by the way? Just curious.

100% employment 10 months after law school is VERY impressive

See above. We have no way of knowing how many of these jobs are what the student wanted at all. But yeah, I agree it's impressive not to have one of their 108 graduates mark "unemployed," except for the deferred ones. That's a hell of a lot better than other schools for sure.

a MAJOR improvement to almost all of these kids' lifestyle

Bold claim, which you couldn't possibly know.

When will TLS grow up and stop citing Big Law numbers for schools where (1) nobody wants biglaw

Well, some want it. In fact, some got it. I wonder if the school had the ability to place every single graduate into a biglaw job—I mean every single one—if the percentage would go up or not? If you think so, then maybe this claim is inaccurate, yeah?

and (2) working as a shitlaw lawyer is a serious improvement to a kid's life

Again, you have zero way of knowing this. It could be true for some. It could be quite the opposite for others, especially with a giant debt albatross draped around them (for which you don't seem concerned).

The people with 168s here turning down 70k jobs who think they are so smart to take out $200k+ to get a salary 100k after tax working 3k hours all in and to pay $25k of that in rent and another 25k in loan payments look a lot dumber than someone laid off from their job making damn near minimum wage at 35k pretax who get a 45k job post tax; pay 8k a year in rent and 2k a year in loans (PAYE)

Eh, maybe so. Maybe not. Maybe some people don't want to pay $2k a year in loans on a $200K loan balance. Or even on a $100K loan balance. I guess you'd be content working a job that paid $40-50k for decades with tons of debt hanging over you the whole time as you PAYE'd your way through. Many people wouldn't. I certainly wouldn't advise $200K in loans to the vast majority of people at almost any school (but always situation dependent).

I also love how Baylor Law's just chock full of laid off minimum wage kids who must have been just this side of homeless until they saw the light.

This guy just owned JohannDeMann.

[Roundhill]

I don't get this hate for Baylor. Sure I would not pay full sticker, but it's an good option for some w/ a scholly. They produce top notch lawyers.

[Serett]

[youtube]_JVK0-4HQTY[/youtube]

[TLSModBot]

Guys, it's Baylor. A two-page topic is bad enough; don't make this a national tragedy by getting it to 3.

Quoting to help bring this to 3 pages.

[Serett]

Guys, it's Baylor. A two-page topic is bad enough; don't make this a national tragedy by getting it to 3.

Quoting to help bring this to 3 pages.

[+] Spoiler

Also buy this book for your spawn.

[TLSModBot]

Is turning each page like torture to Grover? Is this Baby's first Milgram experiment?

Because I'm kinda feeling that