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I'm a 3L T6 who was no-offered at a NYC firm last summer. I've had countless interviews, but no luck. I hate to blame it on the weight, but I am really starting to wonder if it has played a role.

I can't do much to change it, so maybe it doesn't help to worry about it. But I was wondering if you all had any thoughts on this.

How attractive someone is physically (both their body and their attire) certainly has an impact on their perceived competence and fit for the firm. No doubt.

That being said your 2L no offer is a bigger hindrance than your weight.

fat people tend to appear more slovenly, and confirmation bias will cause partners to look more closely at your work than they would a thinner person. if you are actively looking to confirm your belief that someone does sloppy work, you are much more likely to find it: theory of charity, etc. but its a problem that only has a long-term solution, so don't get down about it just because you can't change it in the short-term. think about little actions you can take that will get you where you want to be, rather than just thinking about the destination you desire. good luck buddy!

One of the first things I noticed at my V5 summer firm was that no one was seriously overweight. Not everyone was in great shape or super attractive, but everyone was in a pretty normal weight range. Also, everyone had kind of bad teeth, but I digress. It's unfortunate that something that has no direct relationship with someone's ability to do quality work apparently affects hireability, but empirically it seems that it does. Add that to the list of implicit biases that affect initial hiring and career trajectory at biglaw firms.

OP here.

I harbor no ill will. I'm not saying they are wrong for making negative inferences. We know overweight people miss more work than thin people, so it's not unthinkable that there would be a preference for thin people.

I am just wondering where I go from here.

Anonymous User wrote:OP here.

I harbor no ill will. I'm not saying they are wrong for making negative inferences. We know overweight people miss more work than thin people, so it's not unthinkable that there would be a preference for thin people.

I am just wondering where I go from here.

the gym to get some of those feels out, and then you start massmailing and get your ass to the "stop reading tealeaves" thread to advice

0L, but have work experience in the corporate world (STEM). I have been involved in the hiring process for entry level positions to the company. There is no outright "he was fat so I dont want to hire him" however what others have pointed out is true. I dont know to what extent you say you're obese and I dont know your resume so it is hard to know what is up. For all I know, you wore a pink suit to interviews and have a swastika tattooed on your face . Take what I say with a grain of salt too.

Typically very obese people have a certain look to them that puts people off. Additionally, they are more likely to have certain mannerisms, ticks, physical motions that will play against their ethos. For example, one guy at work would be red in the face after walking the 50 feet to the restroom. Breathe heavily, and people could hear the stomping to and from. This is an extreme example (he was also at the company longer than I have been alive probably), but imagine walking to the conference room for an interview and being hot/tired/out of breath. What would an employer think?

It sucks we judge people based on looks because that guy was one of the smartest guys in the company. I'm sure he would have had a much harder time getting hired if he applied today.

It is not much different than when you're out at night and run into a VERY attractive woman. You instantly want to talk to her, get to know her, take her out, and be around her. We are more likely to overlook character flaws and intelligence when someone is attractive. The same applies to men. Studies show attractive people have more success in their careers.

I used to be an overweight guy who couldnt do a pushup and would be heaving after jogging a quarter mile. Over the next 3-5 years I leaned out tremendously, gained muscle, and improved my energy levels with proper diet and dedicated training. Life changed completely because I was more well received by colleagues, the opposite sex, and my superiors.

Lastly, being "fit", or at least healthy looking, is a reflection of a persons character and values. It shows dedication and health. All these are subconscious things that factor into a person's judgement of another. For someone who will hopefully pull in clients at a firm, you will want every advantage you can get.

http://scoobysworkshop.com/ <--- Great place to learn about nutrition, fitness, and getting on track.

Anonymous User wrote:One of the first things I noticed at my V5 summer firm was that no one was seriously overweight. Not everyone was in great shape or super attractive, but everyone was in a pretty normal weight range. Also, everyone had kind of bad teeth, but I digress. It's unfortunate that something that has no direct relationship with someone's ability to do quality work apparently affects hireability, but empirically it seems that it does. Add that to the list of implicit biases that affect initial hiring and career trajectory at biglaw firms.

On the digression, the teeth thing-what is up with that? Same observation here. I work at a NorCal firm, but am from SoCal, so it is engrained into me to be obsessed with having straight, white teeth.

Anyways, OP yeah, I think that is above is pretty accurate. And i hate myself for it, but now that I manage people as a midlevel, I catch myself thinking things like 'if this person doesn't even care about eating right and exercising, how could they possible care about minute details of projects i give them?' And I know that is completely unfair and terrible and wrong that those thoughts even cross my mind. But like I said, I am from SoCal and used to work in the entertainment industry, so I am hopefully worse than others on this, but who knows.

i took the first teeth comment as a try at a bulimia joke

grand inquisitor wrote:i took the first teeth comment as a try at a bulimia joke

Plot twist... they are all British

Anonymous User wrote:

grand inquisitor wrote:i took the first teeth comment as a try at a bulimia joke

Plot twist... they are all British

Second twist, OP is British and thinks American teeth are weirdly aligned.

Although I can't speak directly on obesity, my observation of these kinds of things is this: some people are probably consciously/unconsciously holding your weight against you. After sensing this you've become less confident at interviewing, most specifically your likelihood of someone picking you (as is a normal reaction). If we assume most people are fair then the biggest impact of discrimination isn't the discrimination itself but its impact on your confidence as then a minority of people who are discriminatory indirectly cause everyone to feel negatively about you. For you, the more controllable part of this for you is how it impacts yourself self-confidence.

I'm glad someone posted about this. Obese female at a top school, decent grades, working at my dream firm next month for 2L SA. Am terrified that the weight will be a subconscious issue for those I'm working for. I've been so worried about it that I've lost 15 pounds since Jan and while I'm def still obese (60 more pounds to lose), I'm really terrified of being perceived as lazy/slovenly as other posters have mentioned.I get this is a consequence of being heavy, but I think there's extra judgment for fat women. I know people will form judgments and all I can do about it keep losing weight and work that much harder to dispel any notion that I am lazy because I let my body go.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm glad someone posted about this. Obese female at a top school, decent grades, working at my dream firm next month for 2L SA. Am terrified that the weight will be a subconscious issue for those I'm working for. I've been so worried about it that I've lost 15 pounds since Jan and while I'm def still obese (60 more pounds to lose), I'm really terrified of being perceived as lazy/slovenly as other posters have mentioned.I get this is a consequence of being heavy, but I think there's extra judgment for fat women. I know people will form judgments and all I can do about it keep losing weight and work that much harder to dispel any notion that I am lazy because I let my body go.

If you already got a job at your dream firm when you were more obese then the only thing you should be having doubts about yourself at this point is the fact you're having doubts about yourself at this point. I don't see any rational link between work ethic and obesity - if anything the opposite argument seems easier, particularly in big law. Having a good body requires time regardless of genetics given the nature of a desk job. I'm saying this honestly as someone who routinely gets banned for insensitivity and making fun of off limit things.

grand inquisitor wrote:i took the first teeth comment as a try at a bulimia joke

i kind of took it as everyone grinding their teeth from stress, but your explanation makes way more sense.

Weight is unquestionably a factor in all types of hiring, and that is very unfair (and almost certainly inefficient). But as to OP, that no offer from 2L will kill you in 3L hiring. If a firm hires someone through OCI, they have another 10 weeks of interacting with this person, after which they can get rid of them (relatively) inexpensively. When a firm hires a 3L, you literally just show up and you now work there. Most of the attorneys in your group will not have even met you. It's much riskier to the employer. The most obvious way someone can weed out candidates is by removing those who were no offered by firms that had spent much more time with them.

Teeth OP here. Was actually just making a random observation, not trying to make a bulimia joke. The irony is that I'm a long-term bulimic, which is exactly why I was so attuned to noticing both the weight pattern and the teeth pattern. EDs are way more rampant in the general population than most people realize (and way more common in men than most people realize), so I wouldn't be surprised if they were even more rampant in the high-stress environment of biglaw.

Fwiw my summer class had exactly one overweight/obese person, but he was very charismatic and had a great resume so I doubt he had much trouble. Everyone else was normal weight, more often than not pretty fit. Sizable plurality of skinnyfats though. We had a big multi-office summer event, and I can't recall any obese summers from any other office (they would have stood out). So maybe there were 5 total if I had been paying close attention, and there were 150+ summers. Hiring bias? Hell, maybe.

Although there were a few midlevel/senior people who were overweight, I think I saw maybe one person in a 250 person office who would have been obese. Also there were only maybe one or two women under 40 who were even overweight. So if there is a weight bias, it's probably worse if you're female.

My guess would also be that if you're a guy, tall and obese is less of a hindrance than average/short. In all of the interviews and other summer jobs I've had at firms, all the obese guys were also 6ft+.

Re: teeth, I thought everyone in my summer class had pretty good teeth, but maybe that's just because mine are shit.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 3L T6 who was no-offered at a NYC firm last summer. I've had countless interviews, but no luck. I hate to blame it on the weight, but I am really starting to wonder if it has played a role.

I can't do much to change it, so maybe it doesn't help to worry about it. But I was wondering if you all had any thoughts on this.

The no-offer is probably why you are having so much trouble - it can be a scarlet letter with other big firms. I'm sure it was brought up in just about every single interview you've had. Since firms won't have a 10 week summer trial period with you, the fact that another firm gave you the thumbs down after trying you out is scaring them off.

Was this a typically 100% offer firm? What was the reason given when you were you no-offered? Even if it was "economic," there was a reason they axed you over someone else (unless whole summer class was cut). Have you figured out the "real" reason yet? Do you rub some people the wrong way? Do you have a good strategy for spinning the no-offer during interviews? It's important to fix whatever you did wrong during the summer so you don't make the same mistakes during interviews or in a future job.

I agree with other posters that being substantially overweight can result in unconscious bias toward you. However, I wouldn't place too much blame on that given your circumstances.

No serious law firm insight here, but a couple observations:

-there were definitely some fat partners at a few of the firms I interviewed with on callbacks. Can't speak to the summers, but it didn't seem like a pro-fit environment at most places. Obviously partners can do what they want, but it's some kind of reassurance, perhaps

-all sorts of empirical evidence suggests that this is worse for women and worse for short men. OP, if you're a tall-ish male, it could be way less problematic than you think

Short obese male, T10 grad. (What a sentence.) I struck out at OCI with top third grades and supposedly decent interviewing skills. I hustled my ass off and ended up doing ok, but I do think that my weight held me back.

Go through random big law firm websites, and look at the associates. Appearance is a huge factor. I can't recall ever seeing ONE over-weight / obese associate, and they all have pictures on the firm websites. Not only weight, but the lighter the skin complexion (for minorities), and being more attractive overall are very dominant factors. Even with smaller litigation shops, hiring partners consider how the judge or jury will perceive this attorney. Solutions? I am the last person to suggest any. It's not as bad as going to a tier 4 law school and thinking about getting into big law though.

Knew a few dangerously obese associates... all three were geniuses that were insanely committed to their work (I'm sure they had to bust their ass to prove it, but they were legitimately better than most and stood out in a job where it's relatively hard to stand out).

I agree that weight is, unfortunately, a negative factor.

But I also think that, in addition to "not being overweight" being in shape is also becoming more of a thing. I have yet to experience this at my firm, but I know that a significant portion of my friends are at firms where the associates (and many partners) run 5Ks and, like any social/firm event...you want to be there. This could be region-specific, I don't know, but it's something to think about beyond just not being overweight/obese (or, conversely, maybe being in great shape can make up for being overweight?)

Anonymous User wrote:I agree that weight is, unfortunately, a negative factor.

But I also think that, in addition to "not being overweight" being in shape is also becoming more of a thing. I have yet to experience this at my firm, but I know that a significant portion of my friends are at firms where the associates (and many partners) run 5Ks and, like any social/firm event...you want to be there. This could be region-specific, I don't know, but it's something to think about beyond just not being overweight/obese (or, conversely, maybe being in great shape can make up for being overweight?)

https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/0 ... marathons/