Do people really get no-offered for "fit"? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

[Actus Reus]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

Yes, I know of 2 people, neither of which are at my firm. One, a summer associate brought a pet on a business trip. The second made several off-color jokes and was just generally a weird person.

[kcdc1]

Short answer: Yes.

Slightly longer answer: If you're asking this because you're about to begin a SA and you're worried about getting no-offered, don't worry about it. At most big firms, a very small minority (or no one at all) will be no-offered. But your goal should no revolve around getting an offer; it should focus on being well-liked and seen as generally competent. If you do the latter, you will get an offer, and you will also set yourself up for success as a first-year associate.

[WheninLaw]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

I'm sure it happens, though work product is more important. Both our no-offers were a combination of poor fit plus mediocre work product.

[Anonymous User]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

Yes to all three.

1. If you are really off-putting such that no one wants to work with you, and it's bad enough to get brought up at a hiring committee meeting, you're probably getting the axe. This is far more likely at firms with small summer classes, as it's harder to blend in and people will care more.

2. If a firm has to no-offer someone for economic reasons, "fit" is a great, vague excuse to tell the person getting the axe. That way, the firm doesn't seem weak (/freak out the other summers) or need to provide any actual substantive feedback to the person, especially if the no-offer is done via a "cold offer" (i.e. we'll tell NALP and other firms you got an offer, but you ain't working here next year buddy).

3. I know a couple people in the (2) category. I have heard many stories about people who fall under (1), but don't personally know anyone.

I disagree with the poster who said work product is more important in the summer (unless you're REALLY bad). As a summer, your job is to blend in, keep your head down, and don't piss anyone off - they aren't giving you much "real" work anyway. Don't focus on trying to get people to love you. Rather, focus on making sure no one hates you.

This profession is judgmental and passive-aggressive. Act accordingly.

[rpupkin]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

I'm sure it happens, though work product is more important. Both our no-offers were a combination of poor fit plus mediocre work product.

I'm not sure that's right. At firms that typically make offers to all of their summers but that nevertheless occasionally no-offer someone, I'd guess that fit/personality, not work product, is usually the reason for the no offer. It's hard to know for sure, though.

[jbagelboy]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

I'm sure it happens, though work product is more important. Both our no-offers were a combination of poor fit plus mediocre work product.

I'm not sure that's right. At firms that typically make offers to all of their summers but that nevertheless occasionally no-offer someone, I'd guess that fit/personality, not work product, is usually the reason for the no offer. It's hard to know for sure, though.

I'm pretty sure work product is more important at wheninlaw's summer firm, though, even if it's generally not quite so at others. I think this highlights that the question has some variation among law firms.

OP, don't worry about getting no offered: if your firm is financially solvent and typically gives offers, you'll be fine barring some extreme irregularity.

[lawlorbust]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

Yes, I know of 2 people, neither of which are at my firm. One, a summer associate brought a pet on a business trip. The second made several off-color jokes and was just generally a weird person.

Is this "fit"? Seems more like inability to meet basic professional standards, vs. "there wasn't anything wrong with him but we just didn't click."

[rpupkin]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

Yes, I know of 2 people, neither of which are at my firm. One, a summer associate brought a pet on a business trip. The second made several off-color jokes and was just generally a weird person.

Is this "fit"? Seems more like inability to meet basic professional standards, vs. "there wasn't anything wrong with him but we just didn't click."

It's basically the same thing.

[tyroneslothrop1]

If you're unable to conduct yourself in a professional manner or have such an off putting personality that people don't want to work with you then you are unlikely to fit in.

[Anonymous User]

I will be the only SA at a firm that upfront warned me that they weren't making any promises about full-time offer. Do you think that is (a) there way of reserving the right to no-offer if they don't like/need me; or (b) there way of subtly informing me I will not be getting an offer and I should hustle this summer.

[rpupkin]

I will be the only SA at a firm that upfront warned me that they weren't making any promises about full-time offer. Do you think that is (a) there way of reserving the right to no-offer if they don't like/need me; or (b) there way of subtly informing me I will not be getting an offer and I should hustle this summer.

I think this is common at small firms that hire just one or two SAs. I wouldn't take the firm's statement as some kind of coded hint. They're just telling you the truth. The firm could decide not to make you an offer for any number of reasons--work product, personality, business is slow, etc.

[Rule104(a)]

I will be the only SA at a firm that upfront warned me that they weren't making any promises about full-time offer. Do you think that is (a) there way of reserving the right to no-offer if they don't like/need me; or (b) there way of subtly informing me I will not be getting an offer and I should hustle this summer.

Just curious, what market are you in?

[WheninLaw]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

I'm sure it happens, though work product is more important. Both our no-offers were a combination of poor fit plus mediocre work product.

I'm not sure that's right. At firms that typically make offers to all of their summers but that nevertheless occasionally no-offer someone, I'd guess that fit/personality, not work product, is usually the reason for the no offer. It's hard to know for sure, though.

I'm pretty sure work product is more important at wheninlaw's summer firm, though, even if it's generally not quite so at others. I think this highlights that the question has some variation among law firms.

OP, don't worry about getting no offered: if your firm is financially solvent and typically gives offers, you'll be fine barring some extreme irregularity.

This is a good point, I was probably generalizing my summer firm too much. Nevertheless, I still think it matters - true, they don't give you "real assignments," so it seems especially bad if you fuck those up.

[mvp99]

Or it just can excuse to no offer someone for another reason?

Does anyone know someone who was no-offered for fit, and if so what was the situation like?

I'm sure it happens, though work product is more important. Both our no-offers were a combination of poor fit plus mediocre work product.

Isnt SA work product usually mediocre?

[stego]

What is a "cold offer"? "We'll tell NALP we made you an offer but you ain't working here next year, buddy" just sounds like lying.

[rpupkin]

Isnt SA work product usually mediocre?

Yeah. It's not that SA works product needs to be good. It doesn't even need to be not mediocre. It just has to not be conspicuously terrible.
That's why when I read "no-offers were a combination of poor fit plus mediocre work product," I basically only see "poor fit."

[rpupkin]

What is a "cold offer"? "We'll tell NALP we made you an offer but you ain't working here next year, buddy" just sounds like lying.

If this sort of "lying" bothers you, choose another profession.

[Foghornleghorn]

If a partner invites you to a party on his yacht, for the love of God do not wear oxfords.

[dixiecupdrinking]

For the major firms, getting no-offered for "fit" doesn't mean "you're not our best bud" or even "we don't like you." It means "employing you will be a liability for our reputation."

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

What is a "cold offer"? "We'll tell NALP we made you an offer but you ain't working here next year, buddy" just sounds like lying.

The lie is way more beneficial to the SA than the truth. I mean, it's sort of the best they can do without actually not no-offering them in the first place.

[Anonymous User]

For the major firms, getting no-offered for "fit" doesn't mean "you're not our best bud" or even "we don't like you." It means "employing you will be a liability for our reputation."

This may be true for the firm's with huge classes, but for major firms with smaller claases it is completely plausible to get no-offered just because folks find you kind of obnoxious, a prima donna, etc

[stego]

What is a "cold offer"? "We'll tell NALP we made you an offer but you ain't working here next year, buddy" just sounds like lying.

The lie is way more beneficial to the SA than the truth. I mean, it's sort of the best they can do without actually not no-offering them in the first place.

So if a firm cold offers you, you get to tell people that they made you an offer but you chose not to work there?

[stego]

What is a "cold offer"? "We'll tell NALP we made you an offer but you ain't working here next year, buddy" just sounds like lying.

If this sort of "lying" bothers you, choose another profession.

Your use of scare quotes implies you think that it's not lying.

[rpupkin]

What is a "cold offer"? "We'll tell NALP we made you an offer but you ain't working here next year, buddy" just sounds like lying.

The lie is way more beneficial to the SA than the truth. I mean, it's sort of the best they can do without actually not no-offering them in the first place.

So if a firm cold offers you, you get to tell people that they made you an offer but you chose not to work there?

Not exactly. But you can tell people that you have an outstanding offer while you apply elsewhere.