Any biglawyers feel like you are screwing up left and right? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I feel so dumb at this job.

[Anonymous User]

Yes. I also popped a boner in a meeting, bad look.

[Anonymous User]

All the time. Everything I'm good at is useless, and everything I'm bad is important. I feel like I'm basically a glorified secretary paid 3 times what a secretary is with absolutely no secretarial skills and without the pleasant charm. I leave the office every day thinking it will be my last. If it wouldn't look strange, I would carry my diploma to and from work daily so it wouldn't be a hassle to get it once I'm fired. I don't know what I'm going to do when that happens. All I hope is I wouldn't have to go back to 3 years of school to get a new diploma each time I'm fired for being incompetent. I've always been described as tenacious by some and lazy and incompetent by others. They're both correct. Despite all my insecurities, I'm very confident I'll be fired from many places after my firing here.

[nealric]

I feel so dumb at this job.

It's normal. You learn quick.

[1styearlateral]

All the time. Everything I'm good at is useless, and everything I'm bad is important. I feel like I'm basically a glorified secretary paid 3 times what a secretary is with absolutely no secretarial skills and without the pleasant charm. I leave the office every day thinking it will be my last. If it wouldn't look strange, I would carry my diploma to and from work daily so it wouldn't be a hassle to get it once I'm fired. I don't know what I'm going to do when that happens. All I hope is I wouldn't have to go back to 3 years of school to get a new diploma each time I'm fired for being incompetent. I've always been described as tenacious by some and lazy and incompetent by others. They're both correct. Despite all my insecurities, I'm very confident I'll be fired from many places after my firing here.

You haven't said what department you work in (transactional, lit, etc.), but if you're working in lit, the only advice I can provide is:

1. Learn to write. You do this by constantly writing and re-writing. Over time, your writing will improve. Take criticism with an open mind. Sometimes doing good work means just pleasing your supervisor--if he wants it done a certain way, just do it his way (he might have a good reason for it being that way, after all). If your supervisor has old work products laying around, scan and copy one (with permission, of course) and study it. Learn to draft documents as he does so that you can craft your work product to be as close to his as possible; after all, everyone always thinks they're the best writer in the room (esp. partners).

1.1. Keep your writing short. Most common complaints I have heard in my office is that associates try to write too much and use too many adjectives and adverbs to "bolster" their work product. More is not better. This ties in with 1., which you will learn to do and improve over time.

2. Take your time. When a partner asks you to do a research assignment or draft a motion, chances are, unless he explicitly tells you time is of the essence, he does not need it this very moment. I've screwed up a few times by getting an assignment, going straight back to my office, and trying to get him an answer by lunch all the while overlooking obvious things and making simple mistakes. Some of my best work is done a couple hours after, putting it down for a day or two, and then going back to it; if you've made a glaring mistake, it will jump out after a review days later.

3. If you're an associate (esp. a first year and even more so for a SA) and do not have a legal pad surgically attached to your body, you've got a problem. The only place I don't go with a legal pad in my hand is the bathroom. If you're called to a partner's office, even if YOU KNOW he's not going to ask you to complete an assignment, you bring that pad anyway. Partners notice subtle stuff like this and you can really make a good impression. Plus, if you screw up and they know it's because you didn't write something down, they're not going to give you any mercy. If you had a notepad with you, they're more likely to concede that they were not clear in their instruction.

[dixiecupdrinking]

You are screwing up left and right. That's what happens when nobody actually ever trains you on how to do your job.

[Ref]

All the time. Everything I'm good at is useless, and everything I'm bad is important. I feel like I'm basically a glorified secretary paid 3 times what a secretary is with absolutely no secretarial skills and without the pleasant charm. I leave the office every day thinking it will be my last. If it wouldn't look strange, I would carry my diploma to and from work daily so it wouldn't be a hassle to get it once I'm fired. I don't know what I'm going to do when that happens. All I hope is I wouldn't have to go back to 3 years of school to get a new diploma each time I'm fired for being incompetent. I've always been described as tenacious by some and lazy and incompetent by others. They're both correct. Despite all my insecurities, I'm very confident I'll be fired from many places after my firing here.

You haven't said what department you work in (transactional, lit, etc.), but if you're working in lit, the only advice I can provide is:

1. Learn to write. You do this by constantly writing and re-writing. Over time, your writing will improve. Take criticism with an open mind. Sometimes doing good work means just pleasing your supervisor--if he wants it done a certain way, just do it his way (he might have a good reason for it being that way, after all). If your supervisor has old work products laying around, scan and copy one (with permission, of course) and study it. Learn to draft documents as he does so that you can craft your work product to be as close to his as possible; after all, everyone always thinks they're the best writer in the room (esp. partners).

1.1. Keep your writing short. Most common complaints I have heard in my office is that associates try to write too much and use too many adjectives and adverbs to "bolster" their work product. More is not better. This ties in with 1., which you will learn to do and improve over time.

2. Take your time. When a partner asks you to do a research assignment or draft a motion, chances are, unless he explicitly tells you time is of the essence, he does not need it this very moment. I've screwed up a few times by getting an assignment, going straight back to my office, and trying to get him an answer by lunch all the while overlooking obvious things and making simple mistakes. Some of my best work is done a couple hours after, putting it down for a day or two, and then going back to it; if you've made a glaring mistake, it will jump out after a review days later.

3. If you're an associate (esp. a first year and even more so for a SA) and do not have a legal pad surgically attached to your body, you've got a problem. The only place I don't go with a legal pad in my hand is the bathroom. If you're called to a partner's office, even if YOU KNOW he's not going to ask you to complete an assignment, you bring that pad anyway. Partners notice subtle stuff like this and you can really make a good impression. Plus, if you screw up and they know it's because you didn't write something down, they're not going to give you any mercy. If you had a notepad with you, they're more likely to concede that they were not clear in their instruction.

TCR

[Anonymous User]

All the time. Everything I'm good at is useless, and everything I'm bad is important. I feel like I'm basically a glorified secretary paid 3 times what a secretary is with absolutely no secretarial skills and without the pleasant charm. I leave the office every day thinking it will be my last. If it wouldn't look strange, I would carry my diploma to and from work daily so it wouldn't be a hassle to get it once I'm fired. I don't know what I'm going to do when that happens. All I hope is I wouldn't have to go back to 3 years of school to get a new diploma each time I'm fired for being incompetent. I've always been described as tenacious by some and lazy and incompetent by others. They're both correct. Despite all my insecurities, I'm very confident I'll be fired from many places after my firing here.

You haven't said what department you work in (transactional, lit, etc.), but if you're working in lit, the only advice I can provide is:

1. Learn to write. You do this by constantly writing and re-writing. Over time, your writing will improve. Take criticism with an open mind. Sometimes doing good work means just pleasing your supervisor--if he wants it done a certain way, just do it his way (he might have a good reason for it being that way, after all). If your supervisor has old work products laying around, scan and copy one (with permission, of course) and study it. Learn to draft documents as he does so that you can craft your work product to be as close to his as possible; after all, everyone always thinks they're the best writer in the room (esp. partners).

1.1. Keep your writing short. Most common complaints I have heard in my office is that associates try to write too much and use too many adjectives and adverbs to "bolster" their work product. More is not better. This ties in with 1., which you will learn to do and improve over time.

2. Take your time. When a partner asks you to do a research assignment or draft a motion, chances are, unless he explicitly tells you time is of the essence, he does not need it this very moment. I've screwed up a few times by getting an assignment, going straight back to my office, and trying to get him an answer by lunch all the while overlooking obvious things and making simple mistakes. Some of my best work is done a couple hours after, putting it down for a day or two, and then going back to it; if you've made a glaring mistake, it will jump out after a review days later.

3. If you're an associate (esp. a first year and even more so for a SA) and do not have a legal pad surgically attached to your body, you've got a problem. The only place I don't go with a legal pad in my hand is the bathroom. If you're called to a partner's office, even if YOU KNOW he's not going to ask you to complete an assignment, you bring that pad anyway. Partners notice subtle stuff like this and you can really make a good impression. Plus, if you screw up and they know it's because you didn't write something down, they're not going to give you any mercy. If you had a notepad with you, they're more likely to concede that they were not clear in their instruction.

TCR

I'm good at all that stuff. I'm talking about work involving attention to detail, organization, etc. The fact I'm good at what you mentioned makes it worse, because the presumption is that then you must not be trying. To give perspective, in second grade I went through 8 winter coats because I kept losing them. In high school I set off a chain reaction whereby everyone lost their jackets, because at a party I wasn't sure which of 2 coats were mine so I took both of them. It turned out that neither was mine, and because of this everyone wound up taking somebody else's jacket except for 1 kid who had to go home jacketless. Now roughly a decade later I'm expected to lose 0 jackets and have 0 typos.

[RaceJudicata]

All the time. Everything I'm good at is useless, and everything I'm bad is important. I feel like I'm basically a glorified secretary paid 3 times what a secretary is with absolutely no secretarial skills and without the pleasant charm. I leave the office every day thinking it will be my last. If it wouldn't look strange, I would carry my diploma to and from work daily so it wouldn't be a hassle to get it once I'm fired. I don't know what I'm going to do when that happens. All I hope is I wouldn't have to go back to 3 years of school to get a new diploma each time I'm fired for being incompetent. I've always been described as tenacious by some and lazy and incompetent by others. They're both correct. Despite all my insecurities, I'm very confident I'll be fired from many places after my firing here.

You haven't said what department you work in (transactional, lit, etc.), but if you're working in lit, the only advice I can provide is:

1. Learn to write. You do this by constantly writing and re-writing. Over time, your writing will improve. Take criticism with an open mind. Sometimes doing good work means just pleasing your supervisor--if he wants it done a certain way, just do it his way (he might have a good reason for it being that way, after all). If your supervisor has old work products laying around, scan and copy one (with permission, of course) and study it. Learn to draft documents as he does so that you can craft your work product to be as close to his as possible; after all, everyone always thinks they're the best writer in the room (esp. partners).

1.1. Keep your writing short. Most common complaints I have heard in my office is that associates try to write too much and use too many adjectives and adverbs to "bolster" their work product. More is not better. This ties in with 1., which you will learn to do and improve over time.

2. Take your time. When a partner asks you to do a research assignment or draft a motion, chances are, unless he explicitly tells you time is of the essence, he does not need it this very moment. I've screwed up a few times by getting an assignment, going straight back to my office, and trying to get him an answer by lunch all the while overlooking obvious things and making simple mistakes. Some of my best work is done a couple hours after, putting it down for a day or two, and then going back to it; if you've made a glaring mistake, it will jump out after a review days later.

3. If you're an associate (esp. a first year and even more so for a SA) and do not have a legal pad surgically attached to your body, you've got a problem. The only place I don't go with a legal pad in my hand is the bathroom. If you're called to a partner's office, even if YOU KNOW he's not going to ask you to complete an assignment, you bring that pad anyway. Partners notice subtle stuff like this and you can really make a good impression. Plus, if you screw up and they know it's because you didn't write something down, they're not going to give you any mercy. If you had a notepad with you, they're more likely to concede that they were not clear in their instruction.

TCR

I'm good at all that stuff. I'm talking about work involving attention to detail, organization, etc. The fact I'm good at what you mentioned makes it worse, because the presumption is that then you must not be trying. To give perspective, in second grade I went through 8 winter coats because I kept losing them. In high school I set off a chain reaction whereby everyone lost their jackets, because at a party I wasn't sure which of 2 coats were mine so I took both of them. It turned out that neither was mine, and because of this everyone wound up taking somebody else's jacket except for 1 kid who had to go home jacketless. Now roughly a decade later I'm expected to lose 0 jackets and have 0 typos.

Hahah maybe apply this to your current work. By taking two jackets you were doing "too much." If you had "done less" and gone home jacketless, everyone would still have their jacket and you would have easily been able to find yours later.

At work, try and "do less" - i.e. take on slightly less work, work slower, ask more questions to be extra clear, don't recreate the wheel, ask for and work off of sample docs, use secretaries/legal assistants, organize files early and often, etc, etc.

[zhenders]

Friend, that jacket story is hillarious as hell... But also you sound super neurotic mate. Maybe chilling would help? Like chilling a LOT?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3rd year. I no longer fuck up everything I touch so now they're trying to murder me with work. Send help.

[Anonymous User]

You are screwing up left and right. That's what happens when nobody actually ever trains you on how to do your job.

This. And it does not get better until you are way more senior. By the time you learn whatever it is you are learning now, you will be senior enough that you will not be doing that thing, and you will be learning something else. And nobody is going to teach you how to do whatever that is either. Rinse repeat until you are like an eighth year.

[LarrySanders]

I'm a 3rd year. I no longer fuck up everything I touch so now they're trying to murder me with work. Send help.

So much this. I am in my 3rd year and I can't get ten minutes of peace. They tell me how great and indispensable I am but all I feel is tired, all the time.

Enjoy your incompetence.

[TLSModBot]

Friend, that jacket story is hillarious as hell... But also you sound super neurotic mate. Maybe chilling would help? Like chilling a LOT?

Saving this for when you're a first year lawyer freaking out or not freaking out and getting fired.

[Anonymous User]

All the time. Everything I'm good at is useless, and everything I'm bad is important. I feel like I'm basically a glorified secretary paid 3 times what a secretary is with absolutely no secretarial skills and without the pleasant charm. I leave the office every day thinking it will be my last. If it wouldn't look strange, I would carry my diploma to and from work daily so it wouldn't be a hassle to get it once I'm fired. I don't know what I'm going to do when that happens. All I hope is I wouldn't have to go back to 3 years of school to get a new diploma each time I'm fired for being incompetent. I've always been described as tenacious by some and lazy and incompetent by others. They're both correct. Despite all my insecurities, I'm very confident I'll be fired from many places after my firing here.

You haven't said what department you work in (transactional, lit, etc.), but if you're working in lit, the only advice I can provide is:

1. Learn to write. You do this by constantly writing and re-writing. Over time, your writing will improve. Take criticism with an open mind. Sometimes doing good work means just pleasing your supervisor--if he wants it done a certain way, just do it his way (he might have a good reason for it being that way, after all). If your supervisor has old work products laying around, scan and copy one (with permission, of course) and study it. Learn to draft documents as he does so that you can craft your work product to be as close to his as possible; after all, everyone always thinks they're the best writer in the room (esp. partners).

1.1. Keep your writing short. Most common complaints I have heard in my office is that associates try to write too much and use too many adjectives and adverbs to "bolster" their work product. More is not better. This ties in with 1., which you will learn to do and improve over time.

2. Take your time. When a partner asks you to do a research assignment or draft a motion, chances are, unless he explicitly tells you time is of the essence, he does not need it this very moment. I've screwed up a few times by getting an assignment, going straight back to my office, and trying to get him an answer by lunch all the while overlooking obvious things and making simple mistakes. Some of my best work is done a couple hours after, putting it down for a day or two, and then going back to it; if you've made a glaring mistake, it will jump out after a review days later.

3. If you're an associate (esp. a first year and even more so for a SA) and do not have a legal pad surgically attached to your body, you've got a problem. The only place I don't go with a legal pad in my hand is the bathroom. If you're called to a partner's office, even if YOU KNOW he's not going to ask you to complete an assignment, you bring that pad anyway. Partners notice subtle stuff like this and you can really make a good impression. Plus, if you screw up and they know it's because you didn't write something down, they're not going to give you any mercy. If you had a notepad with you, they're more likely to concede that they were not clear in their instruction.

TCR

I'm good at all that stuff. I'm talking about work involving attention to detail, organization, etc. The fact I'm good at what you mentioned makes it worse, because the presumption is that then you must not be trying. To give perspective, in second grade I went through 8 winter coats because I kept losing them. In high school I set off a chain reaction whereby everyone lost their jackets, because at a party I wasn't sure which of 2 coats were mine so I took both of them. It turned out that neither was mine, and because of this everyone wound up taking somebody else's jacket except for 1 kid who had to go home jacketless. Now roughly a decade later I'm expected to lose 0 jackets and have 0 typos.

This might be ADHD (or close enough)...I was like this as a kid and Adderall has legitimately changed my life. I'm not high or fucked up, I can just get normal people stuff done. It's incredible. I'm very smart and I was relying on that to get things done in school, and to a lesser extent in the rest of my life (my dorm room was disgusting but it worked). Doing everything chaotically worked okay until it stopped working. For me that was at my first job, but I had dealing with "lazy" "disorganized" "underachieving" etc. my whole life. Sounds like you have the same issue. You should go get evaluated and see if there's a med that can help you out.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Friend, that jacket story is hillarious as hell... But also you sound super neurotic mate. Maybe chilling would help? Like chilling a LOT?

Saving this for when you're a first year lawyer freaking out or not freaking out and getting fired.

Not saying whether anyone should or shouldn't be chilling out, but the jacket story is kinda crazy.

[Nebby]

I feel like this thread occurs every couple of months. I don't really understand the 2L SA model of creating a 10 week party rather than a substantive experience that provides interns with feedback so they know whether they suck and what they should work on prior to starting

[pancakes3]

I feel like this thread occurs every couple of months. I don't really understand the 2L SA model of creating a 10 week party rather than a substantive experience that provides interns with feedback so they know whether they suck and what they should work on prior to starting

I thought that it's pretty clear that the 10 week party is to filter out potential fuckups and weirdos. Plus, how much substantive training can you really provide in 10 weeks worth of supervision? Supervising attorneys would have to take on active instructive roles in addition to getting the work done. And the SAs work 8-5 and aren't taking work home. Don't fight the hypo, Nebs.

[Nebby]

I feel like this thread occurs every couple of months. I don't really understand the 2L SA model of creating a 10 week party rather than a substantive experience that provides interns with feedback so they know whether they suck and what they should work on prior to starting

I thought that it's pretty clear that the 10 week party is to filter out potential fuckups and weirdos. Plus, how much substantive training can you really provide in 10 weeks worth of supervision? Supervising attorneys would have to take on active instructive roles in addition to getting the work done. And the SAs work 8-5 and aren't taking work home. Don't fight the hypo, Nebs.

You're probably right. I am just confused and saddened that OP feels lost after 7 or 8 months into first year. I'm just wondering out loud if there is some way to better prepare students for the learning curve.

[Anonymous User]

I feel like this thread occurs every couple of months. I don't really understand the 2L SA model of creating a 10 week party rather than a substantive experience that provides interns with feedback so they know whether they suck and what they should work on prior to starting

I thought that it's pretty clear that the 10 week party is to filter out potential fuckups and weirdos. Plus, how much substantive training can you really provide in 10 weeks worth of supervision? Supervising attorneys would have to take on active instructive roles in addition to getting the work done. And the SAs work 8-5 and aren't taking work home. Don't fight the hypo, Nebs.

You're probably right. I am just confused and saddened that OP feels lost after 7 or 8 months into first year. I'm just wondering out loud if there is some way to better prepare students for the learning curve.

You could:

1) Have senior people take an active role in the development of their junior employees
2) Hire people with substantive work experience rather than folks right out of school
3) Give junior employees a 1-2 year grace period where they are generally unprofitable (where they are put on low-intensity matters or pro bono)
0) The likelihood biglaw would ever do any of this.