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Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:41 am**

Got a Midlaw SA for the summer, starting next month in NYC. I had always planned to try to get a job at a midlaw firm with a good salary and a decent work life balance, since I'm generally interested in living a tolerable life and having opportunities to grow in a firm that actually cares about me. In many ways, this SA is absolutely perfect for me and I'm excited to jump in.

However, I'm worried about doing really well and impressing my superiors during my SA. They have hired 5 SAs this summer, and they do not say how many they hire (definitely not 100% offer rate) but I bet one or two of us are going to get no-offered (they usually only hire 2-3 summers). I NEED to be one of the people who gets an offer.

Here's the low down on the other summers:

- I'm the only one from a T10, I don't think they do a lot of hiring from top schools because they literally pounced on me when I expressed interest in their firm. I'm hoping that gives me a slight edge.

- Others are from schools with regional ties to NY (think Fordham) that the firm generally hires from, so I'm definitely worried that school loyalty within the firm will screw me.

- One of the other 5 summers is is splitting with another firm, so I'm hoping that if they're going to pick anyone off it's going to be her.

Anyway, that is mostly frivolous information if any of you have any comments on it. The point of this thread it to get your best SA tips for impressing your partners.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:48 am**

Do NOT try to shine. Keep your head down, turn in typo-free work, don't get drunk, don't be exceptional in any way.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:34 pm**

And don't go into your summer hoping that they "pick off" another summer. Basically, don't be an asshole.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:39 pm**

DELG wrote:Keep your head down, turn in typo-free work, don't get drunk

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:41 pm**

DELG wrote:Do NOT try to shine. Keep your head down, turn in typo-free work, don't get drunk, don't be exceptional in any way.

Great advice.
Don't miss deadlines. Manage work deadlines carefully. Don't take on extra projects to show how great you are and do a poor job (even if you think you can mange it.)Do what is expected and do it well.
Be bland but enthusiastic.
Be positive about everything. Don't say negative things about the other SAs. People are judging whether they want to work with you and they don't want a hostile person. Don't act superior because you go to a T10. No one will care where you go to school if you have a bad attitude.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:01 pm**

DELG wrote:Do NOT try to shine. Keep your head down, turn in typo-free work, don't get drunk, don't be exceptional in any way.

Seconded. Nobody will remember anything good you did by the time you actually start - but they will remember anything bad. therefore, don't take any risks. Just do your work on time, be thorough, don't take on too much, and be friendly.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:19 pm**

I'd reiterate the importance of not complaining about the assignments given. I work at a 50 lawyer firm and when I started out I was routinely given research assignments that the partner already knew the answer to or that were assigned on a whim just to give me something to do. I never said anything about this and just did the best job I could. Also take a lot of time on your assignments. Nothing you do is time sensitive, generally, and you should re-read everything you do three times. You won't know what your're doing and the more time you spend on a given assignment the more you will understand what is being asked of you. I spent days writing motions which now take me a couple hours. Also, look up previous examples of motions or memos. I poached law and language from motions previously written regularly.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:32 pm**

All good advice in this thread. While taking on more than you can chew in a misguided attempt to stand out is not advisable, this does not mean that you should not be trying your hardest to do an excellent job on the work you are assigned. The lackadaisical attitude among SAs is probably more common at 100% offer firms, but there are often people who do not realize that they are still being constantly evaluated. For example, if you get what you suspect to be a make-work assignment, a partner may not have high expectations, but this gives you an opportunity to impress them. Just don't go overboard and be the person with questions every 5 minutes or who blows deadlines because they're obsessed about making sure it's perfect. Let your work product speak for itself.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:42 pm**

The point of your SA is not to shine. The point is to show that you are competent and reasonably interested in the work. As others have stated, this means keeping your head down, showing enthusiasm for the work you are given, and turning in error-free work. One thing that can aid in this, and help you turn in work that the partners are looking for is looking through the document management system for precedents. This can give you a sense of what your assigning partner wants/how s/he writes. Drafting documents in this way will generally make the partner's life easier.

I would add that the times where I have tried to do more than I was asked were generally the times where I made significant mistakes. I suspect this is a result of me trying to do too much, and missing issues because I was too focused on doing the extra stuff. Bottom line, nobody will be able to fault you if you are on time every day, work hard, show enthusiasm, and do good work.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:04 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:they literally pounced on me when I expressed interest in their firm

Sounds like an indictable offense.

You've read good advice about doing good work and not trying to stand out for bad reasons when it comes to work product. That's all true. But if you have a good personality, it's ok to have that part stand out. If you don't have a good personality, well, don't try too hard.

My advice has always been to act like you've been there. That feeling that you don't know what you're doing doesn't go away when you pass the bar exam. It doesn't go away when you make partner. And from what I've been told, it doesn't go away entirely by the time you retire. There will always be times as a lawyer when you feel lost. It's part of the job. You want to ask the right questions, and everyone knows you don't know anything, but you also don't want a needy deer in the headlights thing going on. Do the best you can and be (quietly) confident. Make reasonable assumptions and do good, quick work that is clear and concise.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:06 pm**

1. Glitter. Sure, it's more "sparkle" than "shine," but the partners will appreciate it.
2. Strobe lights--inward-facing, not outward.
3. [youtube]OD-I_CU2eU8[/youtube]

All day, every day.

4. When in doubt, excessive consumption of moonshine at social events has never failed anyone.

Good luck, champ, you'll do great.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:48 pm**

Given that you're planning to shine, thinking about your "T10" "edge", and playing "spot the no offer" before even setting your foot in the door I'm guessing you're the early favorite for pwnage. You need to change your approach and be careful with the 'tude my dude.

IMO

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:21 pm**

Tls2016 wrote:
DELG wrote:Do NOT try to shine. Keep your head down, turn in typo-free work, don't get drunk, don't be exceptional in any way.
Great advice.
Don't miss deadlines. Manage work deadlines carefully. Don't take on extra projects to show how great you are and do a poor job (even if you think you can mange it.)Do what is expected and do it well.
Be bland but enthusiastic.
Be positive about everything. Don't say negative things about the other SAs. People are judging whether they want to work with you and they don't want a hostile person. Don't act superior because you go to a T10. No one will care where you go to school if you have a bad attitude.

All of this is so important. Do not try to show us you're the best. If you are, we know. Stay positive and speak highly of everyone. Never turn down work and then leave at 6:30. You are here to help us, to show us that you will be a great junior. If you treat it like a summer vacation we won't trust you when you come back for good. Be available, be interested, and don't be too obvious about only wanting free food.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:52 pm**

Standing out is bad. It's a lot easier to get someone not to go to bat against you than it is to get someone to go to bat for you. The lawyers aren't thinking about finding the next shining star. They're not standing by the Keurig talking about the blue chip prospect in your summer class. They're asking if anybody is a freak show or will wind up on ATL.

Posted: **Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:40 pm**

BigZuck wrote:Given that you're planning to shine, thinking about your "T10" "edge", and playing "spot the no offer" before even setting your foot in the door I'm guessing you're the early favorite for pwnage. You need to change your approach and be careful with the 'tude my dude.

IMO

Came to post this but zuck did it better than I could.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:26 am**

OP here, thanks for all of the advise so far.

The overwhelming response is to keep your head down and do your work on time which seems like good advise for a 100% offer rate firm, but assuming that you're fighting for a position and all of the other SAs are doing that (since it seems like fairly basic operating procedure) how on earth would a firm chose who stays and who goes? Surely there is some way to stand out? What makes the hiring committee say "oh we want OP for sure"

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:37 am**

Anonymous User wrote:OP here, thanks for all of the advise so far.

The overwhelming response is to keep your head down and do your work on time which seems like good advise for a 100% offer rate firm, but assuming that you're fighting for a position and all of the other SAs are doing that (since it seems like fairly basic operating procedure) how on earth would a firm chose who stays and who goes? Surely there is some way to stand out? What makes the hiring committee say "oh we want OP for sure"

I'd actually agree with you here, and that you should go above and beyond. But going above and beyond does not mean what you might think. Here are some tips.

1. Think of every partner or associate you work for as your client. Make their lives easier.
2. You can accomplish 1. by printing out hard copies of cases/ attaching them to every e-mail you reference them. Partners/associates should never have to dig to find anything that you send. It should be there.
3. If you need to leave a message to a partner/associate leave your phone number so they do not have to dig through the directory and look for it.
4. When doing research download the case in a word file and type the holding in the top margin. Highlight the relevant sections that you cite in your research e-mail. If the partner likes hard cases, then do the same and tab the relevant portions so the partner can flip right to your research.
5. Never turn down work, but you don't necessarily need to volunteer for more work than you can handle. Quality vs. quantity.
6. Never complain and never talk shit.
7. Never miss deadlines.
8. No one cares about your scheduled. Tell the partner/associate when you are available. Do not tell them the things that you have to do.
9. Look through the file management system for: 1) billing entries so that you can mirror them, 2) writing idiosyncrasies, and 3) background facts of the case you are working on.
10. Never leave an assignment meeting without getting a firm deadline, how much time they want you to spend, the jurisdiction, and you should end it by repeating back to them what they want. You may think that you heard correctly the first time, but you probably did not. Spit the assignment back to them so you can clear up any miscommunication before leaving the meeting.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:47 am**

Anonymous User wrote:OP here, thanks for all of the advise so far.

The overwhelming response is to keep your head down and do your work on time which seems like good advise for a 100% offer rate firm, but assuming that you're fighting for a position and all of the other SAs are doing that (since it seems like fairly basic operating procedure) how on earth would a firm chose who stays and who goes? Surely there is some way to stand out? What makes the hiring committee say "oh we want OP for sure"

Here are my tips for getting ahead during the summer and making sure you get an offer:

1. Always have the right attitude. Show enthusiasm and intellectual curiosity, even when working in areas you don't enjoy. Be pleasant, keep your ears open, and treat everything like an interesting learning experience. As one senior associate told me, he will never ding or cut down a summer for substantive mistakes (they will absolutely happen). But he absolutely would for a bad attitude.

2. Its all about the little things. As a summer, there is very little that is truly in your control. So when something genuinely is in your control, button it up and make sure its perfect. Easiest example is to make sure your work is typo-free. Every email, memo, letter, etc. should be reviewed and edited thoroughly. The same principle applies in other basic areas. If you are Shepardizing a case, be thorough and complete in summarizing/discussing. If you are cite-checking a brief, Bluebook every last word with care.

3. Don't be "that guy". Anyone who tries too hard to stand out usually ends up doing so, but for the wrong reasons. That is what people are sort of getting at in the comments here. You are conceiving of it a bit wrong. Simply by hammering down the basics, making relationships, being enthusiastic, etc. you are doing all the right things to get an offer. Yet all of those things should ideally be done by everyone. In other words, simply trying to "fit into the pack" is often enough to make you stand out from the pack positively.

4. Form relationships with people in your desired practice areas. Never hesitate to go out to lunch and informally chat with the people you want to work with. Express your interest, ask about their experiences, pick their brains about the cases, and ask them for a chance to pitch in. Being proactive is the best way to get in with the best people and get the best work. Never assume the firm will just place you into the right niche. You often have to find that niche and seize it yourself.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:19 pm**

Lacepiece23 wrote: 10. Never leave an assignment meeting without getting a firm deadline, how much time they want you to spend, the jurisdiction, and you should end it by repeating back to them what they want. You may think that you heard correctly the first time, but you probably did not. Spit the assignment back to them so you can clear up any miscommunication before leaving the meeting.

+1 on this, this deserves emphasis and it is all upside. Not only does it ensure you understood, but it makes THEM think about what they really want from you, and whether they've communicated it well enough. Those little clarifying conversations at the end are god damn gold, do it every time for the rest of your career.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:25 pm**

The way I would summarize for OP what people seem to be dancing around somewhat is that you are never going to blow the partner's mind with some brilliant legal reasoning. It just isn't going to happen. So, the way to "shine" is just by getting the basics right and focusing on that. You'll be surprised how few people even really do that (and by the amount of time and effort it takes).

There aren't really any "blue chip" SAs and, to the extent there are, it's going to be based on education/employment credentials and personality, not on any work product they do over the summer.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:05 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:OP here, thanks for all of the advise so far.

The overwhelming response is to keep your head down and do your work on time which seems like good advise for a 100% offer rate firm, but assuming that you're fighting for a position and all of the other SAs are doing that (since it seems like fairly basic operating procedure) how on earth would a firm chose who stays and who goes? Surely there is some way to stand out? What makes the hiring committee say "oh we want OP for sure"

You can't impress them, you can only turn them off to you. The won't be picking, say, the best 3 out 5; they will be cutting 2. I went to a similar type of firm, and during my SA, the associates had reasons for every summer who had been no-offered in their classes.

FWIW, the 1/5 no-offered in my year was the only T-10 student, who went to the managing partner's alma matter.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:27 pm**

DELG wrote:Do NOT try to shine. Keep your head down, turn in typo-free work, don't get drunk, don't be exceptional in any way.

This is so true. I tried to 'shine' and it bit me in the ass. No news is good news: just fly under the radar.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:37 pm**

Lacepiece23 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here, thanks for all of the advise so far.

The overwhelming response is to keep your head down and do your work on time which seems like good advise for a 100% offer rate firm, but assuming that you're fighting for a position and all of the other SAs are doing that (since it seems like fairly basic operating procedure) how on earth would a firm chose who stays and who goes? Surely there is some way to stand out? What makes the hiring committee say "oh we want OP for sure"
I'd actually agree with you here, and that you should go above and beyond. But going above and beyond does not mean what you might think. Here are some tips.

1. Think of every partner or associate you work for as your client. Make their lives easier.
2. You can accomplish 1. by printing out hard copies of cases/ attaching them to every e-mail you reference them. Partners/associates should never have to dig to find anything that you send. It should be there.
3. If you need to leave a message to a partner/associate leave your phone number so they do not have to dig through the directory and look for it.
4. When doing research download the case in a word file and type the holding in the top margin. Highlight the relevant sections that you cite in your research e-mail. If the partner likes hard cases, then do the same and tab the relevant portions so the partner can flip right to your research.
5. Never turn down work, but you don't necessarily need to volunteer for more work than you can handle. Quality vs. quantity.
6. Never complain and never talk shit.
7. Never miss deadlines.
8. No one cares about your scheduled. Tell the partner/associate when you are available. Do not tell them the things that you have to do.
9. Look through the file management system for: 1) billing entries so that you can mirror them, 2) writing idiosyncrasies, and 3) background facts of the case you are working on.
10. Never leave an assignment meeting without getting a firm deadline, how much time they want you to spend, the jurisdiction, and you should end it by repeating back to them what they want. You may think that you heard correctly the first time, but you probably did not. Spit the assignment back to them so you can clear up any miscommunication before leaving the meeting.

Small caveat here and I'm sure it's firm dependent, but we were explicitly told it's okay and encouraged to push back lightly and politely if a partner/associate gives you work with a deadline that would cause you to miss an event. A real event, not a happy hour or something. The firm goes through a lot of trouble to put on events during the summer. It takes man hours and money. They don't want you to miss anything because some ignorant/mean attorney wants you to work on what everyone knows is a useless assignment. Some people are more social or on top of the summer calendar, but many aren't and so honestly don't know when the events are. Some attorneys are just salty old dogs who don't give a shit, but the firm is aware these types of people exist. At my firm at least it wouldn't be held against you if you pushed to get a deadline extended for that reason.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:53 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Lacepiece23 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here, thanks for all of the advise so far.

The overwhelming response is to keep your head down and do your work on time which seems like good advise for a 100% offer rate firm, but assuming that you're fighting for a position and all of the other SAs are doing that (since it seems like fairly basic operating procedure) how on earth would a firm chose who stays and who goes? Surely there is some way to stand out? What makes the hiring committee say "oh we want OP for sure"
I'd actually agree with you here, and that you should go above and beyond. But going above and beyond does not mean what you might think. Here are some tips.

1. Think of every partner or associate you work for as your client. Make their lives easier.
2. You can accomplish 1. by printing out hard copies of cases/ attaching them to every e-mail you reference them. Partners/associates should never have to dig to find anything that you send. It should be there.
3. If you need to leave a message to a partner/associate leave your phone number so they do not have to dig through the directory and look for it.
4. When doing research download the case in a word file and type the holding in the top margin. Highlight the relevant sections that you cite in your research e-mail. If the partner likes hard cases, then do the same and tab the relevant portions so the partner can flip right to your research.
5. Never turn down work, but you don't necessarily need to volunteer for more work than you can handle. Quality vs. quantity.
6. Never complain and never talk shit.
7. Never miss deadlines.
8. No one cares about your scheduled. Tell the partner/associate when you are available. Do not tell them the things that you have to do.
9. Look through the file management system for: 1) billing entries so that you can mirror them, 2) writing idiosyncrasies, and 3) background facts of the case you are working on.
10. Never leave an assignment meeting without getting a firm deadline, how much time they want you to spend, the jurisdiction, and you should end it by repeating back to them what they want. You may think that you heard correctly the first time, but you probably did not. Spit the assignment back to them so you can clear up any miscommunication before leaving the meeting.
Small caveat here and I'm sure it's firm dependent, but we were explicitly told it's okay and encouraged to push back lightly and politely if a partner/associate gives you work with a deadline that would cause you to miss an event. A real event, not a happy hour or something. The firm goes through a lot of trouble to put on events during the summer. It takes man hours and money. They don't want you to miss anything because some ignorant/mean attorney wants you to work on what everyone knows is a useless assignment. Some people are more social or on top of the summer calendar, but many aren't and so honestly don't know when the events are. Some attorneys are just salty old dogs who don't give a shit, but the firm is aware these types of people exist. At my firm at least it wouldn't be held against you if you pushed to get a deadline extended for that reason.

I agree. I forgot about the summer event thing. I'd only recommend pushing back if its a real emergency. For example, you have to miss a summer event because a partner gives you something at 5 (unlikely) and the event is at 6 and due that evening, then don't push back. But if its something you have known about three days in advance, you should stay late and do both. More of a time management thing. I don't see a situation where you would need to turn down work because of a summer event especially at a more mid sized firm where I'd imagine summer events are not being held every single evening.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:04 pm**

Lacepiece23 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Lacepiece23 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here, thanks for all of the advise so far.

The overwhelming response is to keep your head down and do your work on time which seems like good advise for a 100% offer rate firm, but assuming that you're fighting for a position and all of the other SAs are doing that (since it seems like fairly basic operating procedure) how on earth would a firm chose who stays and who goes? Surely there is some way to stand out? What makes the hiring committee say "oh we want OP for sure"
I'd actually agree with you here, and that you should go above and beyond. But going above and beyond does not mean what you might think. Here are some tips.

1. Think of every partner or associate you work for as your client. Make their lives easier.
2. You can accomplish 1. by printing out hard copies of cases/ attaching them to every e-mail you reference them. Partners/associates should never have to dig to find anything that you send. It should be there.
3. If you need to leave a message to a partner/associate leave your phone number so they do not have to dig through the directory and look for it.
4. When doing research download the case in a word file and type the holding in the top margin. Highlight the relevant sections that you cite in your research e-mail. If the partner likes hard cases, then do the same and tab the relevant portions so the partner can flip right to your research.
5. Never turn down work, but you don't necessarily need to volunteer for more work than you can handle. Quality vs. quantity.
6. Never complain and never talk shit.
7. Never miss deadlines.
8. No one cares about your scheduled. Tell the partner/associate when you are available. Do not tell them the things that you have to do.
9. Look through the file management system for: 1) billing entries so that you can mirror them, 2) writing idiosyncrasies, and 3) background facts of the case you are working on.
10. Never leave an assignment meeting without getting a firm deadline, how much time they want you to spend, the jurisdiction, and you should end it by repeating back to them what they want. You may think that you heard correctly the first time, but you probably did not. Spit the assignment back to them so you can clear up any miscommunication before leaving the meeting.
Small caveat here and I'm sure it's firm dependent, but we were explicitly told it's okay and encouraged to push back lightly and politely if a partner/associate gives you work with a deadline that would cause you to miss an event. A real event, not a happy hour or something. The firm goes through a lot of trouble to put on events during the summer. It takes man hours and money. They don't want you to miss anything because some ignorant/mean attorney wants you to work on what everyone knows is a useless assignment. Some people are more social or on top of the summer calendar, but many aren't and so honestly don't know when the events are. Some attorneys are just salty old dogs who don't give a shit, but the firm is aware these types of people exist. At my firm at least it wouldn't be held against you if you pushed to get a deadline extended for that reason.
I agree. I forgot about the summer event thing. I'd only recommend pushing back if its a real emergency. For example, you have to miss a summer event because a partner gives you something at 5 (unlikely) and the event is at 6 and due that evening, then don't push back. But if its something you have known about three days in advance, you should stay late and do both. More of a time management thing. I don't see a situation where you would need to turn down work because of a summer event especially at a more mid sized firm where I'd imagine summer events are not being held every single evening.

I basically agree. But based on my super limited experience I don't know how hard I would push back to the attorney assigning the work, you might try to use the recruiting manager or whoever might be dolling out assignments to the summers as an intermediary. Again though it's firm dependent (smaller offices/summer classes might not have someone in that role) and obviously it would be harder to do that if the attorney requested something in person/on the phone. Can always gently go with "I'm working on X for A and Y for B already..." or "[Recruiting person] put me on these other two assignments, should I..." I guess

I also don't know if I agree with number 9 above. Poking around in the file management system seems like it could potentially be a bad idea, especially if you go outside of a matter you have been assigned too (but maybe you weren't talking about that, I might have misinterpreted).

Also I'm not an attorney though so obviously grain of salt

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How to shine at you SA - Tips Please Forum

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