Top Law Schools

Hey all.

Current 1L at HYS right now and likely looking at median grades when 1L is done. I'm curious to know whether I should stick around in law school or, b/c my legal prospects may not be great with median grades, return to consulting where I worked for ~2 years prior to law school.

My main concerns right now are: (1) As I excited as I was about becoming a lawyer before starting school, a lot of that excitement has been replaced by dread at having done poorly in school and having to settle for some random BigLaw job with weak exit opps just to pay it off. (2) I do have the option of returning to consulting, which means my opportunity cost of staying in law school is significant. At this stage, I'm on TLS to determine whether (1) I will be able to get a job at a prestigious enough firm that has solid exit opps with median grades at HYS and (2) assuming this job is a possibility, whether it makes sense to keep grinding away or just leave.

I'm sure some of y'all will read this post with derision, but I've been pretty unhappy with my lackluster performance and really am concerned about having come to law school only to end up doing something I didn't want to do just to pay off debt. So I'm trying to gather as much info as I can to make an informed decision. Thanks!

if you want to be a lawyer, median grades at HS will get you t a lot of great places. If you dont want to be a lawyer because being a lawyer seems unappealing to you leave. but dont leave becuase you think you will not have opportunities coming out from median at HS

what is the distinction you're drawing between "random biglaw job" and "prestigious enough firm w/solid exit opps?"

How much debt?
Do you want to be a lawyer? If not, go back to consulting.

OP here

From my conversations with attorneys at receptions and talking with career services people, a "random (maybe more accurately 'generic') biglaw job" is a low V100 firm where they pay market but lateral & exit opportunities (for example moving to PE/VC/tech shops or just up to a better firm) are difficult to come by and the name of the firm doesn't go very far versus "prestigious enough firm" has decent to strong lateral & exit opportunities. I left a job that afforded my colleagues strong exit opportunities when they wanted to explore something new; I'm concerned I won't get that from firms who hire people with median grades.

ETA: I do want to be a lawyer. But I'd rather be in a position where I can take advantage of interesting opportunities; I don't see that happening at a generic big law job like the one I described above.

Did career services tell you that you will do no better than "low V100" given your median grades?

If you read the bidding threads on this site, some posters claim that median at Harvard puts you in the running for V10+ firms.

Why don't you try your best to do well this semester, and wait until after you have your OCI results in hand before you make your way back?

Median at HYS is in the running for any firm short of Wachtell, especially with a consulting/business background. I work at one of DPW/S&C/STB/Cravath and do a lot of recruiting. We dip well below median at HLS with offers. Stanford and Yale are even more random as they are smaller and have fewer people interested in NYC biglaw.

Thanks for the advice! The career service people just told me to keep my head up but didn't give much guidance about my prospects; it was talking to practicing attorneys (and poking around TLS) that got me really worried.

The main reason I am here is to start gauging options now and see if I need to reach out to my old job sooner rather than later, so that if OCI does not go my way, I'll have laid some groundwork to make a move one way or another.

It's reassuring to know that I am not out of the running yet; it's a bit hard to get my head out of the weeds when I'm surrounded by the 1L neurosis.

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks for the advice! The career service people just told me to keep my head up but didn't give much guidance about my prospects; it was talking to practicing attorneys (and poking around TLS) that got me really worried.

The main reason I am here is to start gauging options now and see if I need to reach out to my old job sooner rather than later, so that if OCI does not go my way, I'll have laid some groundwork to make a move one way or another.

It's reassuring to know that I am not out of the running yet; it's a bit hard to get my head out of the weeds when I'm surrounded by the 1L neurosis.

Don't be neurotic. Be confident. Your absolute worst case outcome is that you maybe go back to a good job that you had before. I think you can get it together. It's probably better to stop worrying about stuff you can't fix and focus on the things you can .
Of course the anxiety is there but you need to manage it. You're going to be OK OP no matter what.

For what it's worth I had slightly above-median (but barely) grades at H and will be at a v5 in NYC this summer (I also had a business background). Unless you're awful at interviewing (which you probably aren't if you worked in consulting before--I'm assuming it was a respectable shop), my guess is that you will very possibly get a v5 offer and will almost certainly get a v10 offer.

..

I can't help but lol a little at this post, no offense OP.

Median grades at HYS = still getting a fantastic freaking job. You will not be getting a "low V100" firm unless you really are bad at interviewing. You'll easily be able to get interviews at many/most of the top firms. You forget that you are at HYS. People with median grades at lower T-14s and beyond can get biglaw jobs. Realize the position you are in here.

Also please do not equate vault rankings with exit opportunities so literally. There are non-vault ranked firms that excel in certain practice areas where you'd be able to land nice lateral/exit opportunities from those practices. Do not chose a firm solely based on a vault ranking, how much they actually matter outside of NY corporate work is really, really debatable. Find a practice area you like, look up ranking on chambers, and compare. So if you want to do VC work for example, Cooley/Gunderson are both band 1 nationwide. If you want to do PE, STB and Kirkland are good choices. Stop caring so much about vault rankings and care more about your practice goals.

Edit: To prove my point, Gunderson isn't even on the Vault 100 and it is widely regarded as one of the best VC/tech law firms.

I go to a lower-ranked school than HLS and some students end up at V5 and V10 firms with median-ish grades, you should be great.

Re exit opportunities, it might be worth reading this:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=261392

At this stage, I'm on TLS to determine whether I will be able to get a job at a prestigious enough firm that has solid exit opps with median grades at HYS.

Chasing prestige is a shitty way to plan your life. Focus on finding a job you like with people you get along with and where you can develop useful skills.

kcdc1 wrote:

At this stage, I'm on TLS to determine whether I will be able to get a job at a prestigious enough firm that has solid exit opps with median grades at HYS.

Chasing prestige is a shitty way to plan your life. Focus on finding a job you like with people you get along with and where you can develop useful skills.

don't think he's chasing prestige for the sake of prestige but moreso putting himself in a position with business-oriented exit options.

I would certainly go through EIP/FIP/OCI before deciding whether or not to cut and run. If you want to save money on tuition, you should still be able to by august of 2L. Someone in your position will still have a crack at very elite corporate firms (DPW/CSM/Cleary/ect) that have amazing exit options in those fields.

Don't be discouraged yet if this is actually what you want to do. I understand your angst--I had better grades but was in a similar position (top school w/ consulting background) as a 1L and I day dreamed of returning to consulting and putting law behind me when school was especially blegh; just accept that as part of your psychological reckoning/purging and push forward. Should you have gone to law school and left your job? Probably not. (Lesson to future 0Ls!) But at this point you owe it to yourself to see it through fall recruiting.

Median at HYS = probably multiple V10 offers.

IDK. What do you want to do? I assume that you were not at MBB, because IIRC those firms have a policy against analysts returning before their grad degree. If you're fine with doing legal work, then go on; if not, then whatever law school is a shitty proposition and you're probably better off dropping out now.

LOL@all the vault trolling in this thread--as if it really makes a difference whether you're at a V10, a V20, or a "lower V100." Getting a job at a "V5" is not the equivalent of getting into HYSCC for law school.

OP, you write that you're worried about only obtaining "some random BigLaw job." All big law jobs are "random" in the sense that you mean. Some of these top vault shops are horrible places to work for associates, and some of the lower-ranked (or even non-ranked) firms will offer better opportunities for young associates. Stop mindlessly chasing prestige.

rpupkin wrote:LOL@all the vault trolling in this thread--as if it really makes a difference whether you're at a V10, a V20, or a "lower V100." Getting a job at a "V5" is not the equivalent of getting into HYSCC for law school.

OP, you write that you're worried about only obtaining "some random BigLaw job." All big law jobs are "random" in the sense that you mean. Some of these top vault shops are horrible places to work for associates, and some of the lower-ranked (or even non-ranked) firms will offer better opportunities for young associates. Stop mindlessly chasing prestige.

I don't get this post at all.

There are problems with (1) mindlessly trying to get the most highly ranked firm and (2) not recognizing that any "law firm ranking" is going to be flawed and arbitrary. But it's at the very least a good shorthand for recognizing that there is a hierarchy of legal work and it's insane to think that not an important factor in thinking about whether to enter/continue with law school.

Can't you do MBB/GS/CS processes as well? I'm sure you could be competitive for those.

Drop out.

lawlorbust wrote:

rpupkin wrote:LOL@all the vault trolling in this thread--as if it really makes a difference whether you're at a V10, a V20, or a "lower V100." Getting a job at a "V5" is not the equivalent of getting into HYSCC for law school.

OP, you write that you're worried about only obtaining "some random BigLaw job." All big law jobs are "random" in the sense that you mean. Some of these top vault shops are horrible places to work for associates, and some of the lower-ranked (or even non-ranked) firms will offer better opportunities for young associates. Stop mindlessly chasing prestige.

I don't get this post at all.

There are problems with (1) mindlessly trying to get the most highly ranked firm and (2) not recognizing that any "law firm ranking" is going to be flawed and arbitrary. But it's at the very least a good shorthand for recognizing that there is a hierarchy of legal work and it's insane to think that not an important factor in thinking about whether to enter/continue with law school.

actually nah this post is pretty bad

stretchedtoothin wrote:

lawlorbust wrote:

rpupkin wrote:LOL@all the vault trolling in this thread--as if it really makes a difference whether you're at a V10, a V20, or a "lower V100." Getting a job at a "V5" is not the equivalent of getting into HYSCC for law school.

OP, you write that you're worried about only obtaining "some random BigLaw job." All big law jobs are "random" in the sense that you mean. Some of these top vault shops are horrible places to work for associates, and some of the lower-ranked (or even non-ranked) firms will offer better opportunities for young associates. Stop mindlessly chasing prestige.

I don't get this post at all.

There are problems with (1) mindlessly trying to get the most highly ranked firm and (2) not recognizing that any "law firm ranking" is going to be flawed and arbitrary. But it's at the very least a good shorthand for recognizing that there is a hierarchy of legal work and it's insane to think that not an important factor in thinking about whether to enter/continue with law school.

actually nah this post is pretty bad

There is a huge hierarchy in the legal world. This matters in a way that "presftige" does not matter in any other industry. It varies by city, so vault isn't good outside NY, but it's very good in New York. The STB or DPW associate gets an interview 20 times out of 20 ahead of the Dechert associate, all else equal. That's only 19 out of 20 times all else not being equal (Bechert person having slightly more relevant experience).

lawlorbust wrote:

rpupkin wrote:LOL@all the vault trolling in this thread--as if it really makes a difference whether you're at a V10, a V20, or a "lower V100." Getting a job at a "V5" is not the equivalent of getting into HYSCC for law school.

OP, you write that you're worried about only obtaining "some random BigLaw job." All big law jobs are "random" in the sense that you mean. Some of these top vault shops are horrible places to work for associates, and some of the lower-ranked (or even non-ranked) firms will offer better opportunities for young associates. Stop mindlessly chasing prestige.

I don't get this post at all.

There are problems with (1) mindlessly trying to get the most highly ranked firm and (2) not recognizing that any "law firm ranking" is going to be flawed and arbitrary. But it's at the very least a good shorthand for recognizing that there is a hierarchy of legal work and it's insane to think that not an important factor in thinking about whether to enter/continue with law school.

Please explain what "hierarchy of legal work" means. I've been practicing law for years and I honestly don't know what you're talking about.