cried at my desk for first time Forum

[rahulg91]

Yes - I am also annoyed with the state of the job market, but does that mean we should feel less responsibility for the loans that we voluntarily took? I thought we were discussing attitudes as they relate to our student loans. Maybe I am missing something?

I think you are missing something. It's perfectly valid to be frustrated that even after doing everything "right" the outcomes we can expect still involve a shitty QOL. Especially considering biglaw is considered the "golden ticket" for a lot of law students. Disabusing us of this myth is probably a good thing.

[krads153]

You are missing the part where you were forced to take loans in order to obtain an education you desired because people before you made that choice for you. Yes, you decided to take that loan. But you wouldn't have had to take that loan if the previous generations hadn't predetermined that for you.

Most people I knew personally didn't have any undergrad loans because of scholly or parents paid. Why not just major in engineering or accounting and get a job straight out of undergrad without any loans? Nobody forced anyone to major in English or Poli Sci....your local state school is perfectly good to get a job if you major in CS/EECS...or maybe even a 2 year nursing degree? Nurses can get a job easily. The pay isn't as good as law, but the debt isn't comparable either and the hours are better.

[Anonymous User]

You are missing the part where you were forced to take loans in order to obtain an education you desired because people before you made that choice for you. Yes, you decided to take that loan. But you wouldn't have had to take that loan if the previous generations hadn't predetermined that for you.

I don't even know how to respond to this. So even though I voluntarily decided to take on the debt, I still should feel less responsibility for the debt because someone from a previous generation decided to make consumers pay for law school? I think I will just have to agree to disagree.

[A. Nony Mouse]

You are missing the part where you were forced to take loans in order to obtain an education you desired because people before you made that choice for you. Yes, you decided to take that loan. But you wouldn't have had to take that loan if the previous generations hadn't predetermined that for you.

Most people I knew personally didn't have any undergrad loans because of scholly or parents paid. Why not just major in engineering or accounting and get a job straight out of undergrad without any loans? Nobody forced anyone to major in English or Poli Sci....your local state school is perfectly good to get a job if you major in CS/EECS...or maybe even a 2 year nursing degree? Nurses can get a job easily. The pay isn't as good as law, but the debt isn't comparable either and the hours are better.

I always find it baffling when people suggest that people with the skill set/interests that led them to law school could have considered nursing instead. I do actually have a law school classmate who dropped out halfway through to go to nursing school, but I just can't see most proto-lawyers as nurses. (Or engineers, for that matter.) I think there are lots of other paths that humanities people can take other than law, but I don't think it means they should have just done STEM, bro.

And you not knowing people who had undergrad loans just means you don't know a very wide circle of people.

I'm not saying anyone is owed anything, at all, but it is infuriating that people while graduated my law school in 2000 paid about $8000 yearly tuition, and now it's close to $30k. It's not like that's inflation or cost of living.

[lurklaw]

You are missing the part where you were forced to take loans in order to obtain an education you desired because people before you made that choice for you. Yes, you decided to take that loan. But you wouldn't have had to take that loan if the previous generations hadn't predetermined that for you.

Most people I knew personally didn't have any undergrad loans because of scholly or parents paid. Why not just major in engineering or accounting and get a job straight out of undergrad without any loans? Nobody forced anyone to major in English or Poli Sci....your local state school is perfectly good to get a job if you major in CS/EECS...or maybe even a 2 year nursing degree? Nurses can get a job easily. The pay isn't as good as law, but the debt isn't comparable either and the hours are better.

I always find it baffling when people suggest that people with the skill set/interests that led them to law school could have considered nursing instead. I do actually have a law school classmate who dropped out halfway through to go to nursing school, but I just can't see most proto-lawyers as nurses. (Or engineers, for that matter.) I think there are lots of other paths that humanities people can take other than law, but I don't think it means they should have just done STEM, bro.

And you not knowing people who had undergrad loans just means you don't know a very wide circle of people.

I'm not saying anyone is owed anything, at all, but it is infuriating that people while graduated my law school in 2000 paid about $8000 yearly tuition, and now it's close to $30k. It's not like that's inflation or cost of living.

I mean, they both clean up other people's shit for a living, so it can't be that baffling.

[Anonymous User]

Necro'ing this thread. Just cried at my desk for the first time - about 6 months into my big law job. I am working under a mid-level who is micromanaging me to death. If I misplace a hyphen in a file name, it's a call and a condescending explanation about how important it is to follow the naming conventions. And that's of course on top of all of the actual feedback that you get as a first year on the learning curve. Before law school, I worked at a law firm for several attorneys, one of whom was the definition of a screamer, so it's not like I don't know how to work with lawyers or how to handle feedback, but this is just really taking a toll on me.

I went to HYS, graduated with good grades, and generally consider myself to be a smart and capable person, but this job really makes you question everything.

I guess it didn't really hit me until now what it would be like to work under the types of people you hated in law school.

[elendinel]

Necro'ing this thread. Just cried at my desk for the first time - about 6 months into my big law job. I am working under a mid-level who is micromanaging me to death. If I misplace a hyphen in a file name, it's a call and a condescending explanation about how important it is to follow the naming conventions. And that's of course on top of all of the actual feedback that you get as a first year on the learning curve.

Stay strong dude. I had a similar supervisor, except he was condescending when I used a different style than his for various things (acted like his way is the only way to do everything even though his knowledge of the law wasn't always right and even though I have literally never, with the 15 partners/senior associates I've worked with, ever seen anyone do what he does, for excellent reasons). I worked crazy hours taking work from other people and convincing them to give me a steady stream of work. I eventually grew a backbone, argued back with my supervisor, and never got work from him again, so step 1 is crucial.

[zot1]

Necro'ing this thread. Just cried at my desk for the first time - about 6 months into my big law job. I am working under a mid-level who is micromanaging me to death. If I misplace a hyphen in a file name, it's a call and a condescending explanation about how important it is to follow the naming conventions. And that's of course on top of all of the actual feedback that you get as a first year on the learning curve. Before law school, I worked at a law firm for several attorneys, one of whom was the definition of a screamer, so it's not like I don't know how to work with lawyers or how to handle feedback, but this is just really taking a toll on me.

I went to HYS, graduated with good grades, and generally consider myself to be a smart and capable person, but this job really makes you question everything.

I guess it didn't really hit me until now what it would be like to work under the types of people you hated in law school.

I'm sorry you're going through this. That sounds really tough. Just hang in there, man.

[Rahviveh]

If you're male and you cry because some old geezer yells at or nitpicks at you, you have some serious issues.

Mod edit: user has been warned for sexist douchebaggery.

[TLSModBot]

If you're male and you cry because some old geezer yells at or nitpicks at you, you have some serious issues.

This is a pretty shitty post on multiple levels

[zot1]

If you're male and you cry because some old geezer yells at or nitpicks at you, you have some serious issues.

If you're sitting behind a computer telling people how to behave according to societal gender standards, you have some serious issues.

[FSK]

If you're male and you cry because some old geezer yells at or nitpicks at you, you have some serious issues.

Yeah go fuck yourself for this

[1styearlateral]

I went to HYS, graduated with good grades, and generally consider myself to be a smart and capable person, but this job really makes you question everything.

None of these things determine whether or not you'll be a good attorney or a good associate. Unfortunately, attention to detail is paramount to this job.

[Rahviveh]

If you're male and you cry because some old geezer yells at or nitpicks at you, you have some serious issues.

If you're sitting behind a computer telling people how to behave according to societal gender standards, you have some serious issues.

Not telling people how to behave. My point is that if the job is negatively affecting your psyche that much you need to find something else ASAP

Not a gender thing have no problem with men crying over family or relationships. I guess I'm just a robot but I can't imagine paper pushing invoking that kind of emotion.

Whoops, accidental anon

[zot1]

If you're male and you cry because some old geezer yells at or nitpicks at you, you have some serious issues.

If you're sitting behind a computer telling people how to behave according to societal gender standards, you have some serious issues.

Not telling people how to behave. My point is that if the job is negatively affecting your psyche that much you need to find something else ASAP

Not a gender thing have no problem with men crying over family or relationships. I guess I'm just a robot but I can't imagine paper pushing invoking that kind of emotion.

Whoops, accidental anon

I don't know, bro. It's still a gender thing if you think men can only cry about family or relationships and nothing else.

You're not a robot. You handle things differently than OP and no one should tell you to do it because you're a man or a woman. That's why you're getting some heat here.

[Anonymous User]

Necro'ing this thread. Just cried at my desk for the first time - about 6 months into my big law job. I am working under a mid-level who is micromanaging me to death. If I misplace a hyphen in a file name, it's a call and a condescending explanation about how important it is to follow the naming conventions. And that's of course on top of all of the actual feedback that you get as a first year on the learning curve. Before law school, I worked at a law firm for several attorneys, one of whom was the definition of a screamer, so it's not like I don't know how to work with lawyers or how to handle feedback, but this is just really taking a toll on me.

I went to HYS, graduated with good grades, and generally consider myself to be a smart and capable person, but this job really makes you question everything.

I guess it didn't really hit me until now what it would be like to work under the types of people you hated in law school.

I'm the original OP of this thread and this honestly brought tears to my eyes to see that I posted this a year ago - and to understand so closely what you are going through. As a now second year associate, I will say that things got so much better. I switched practice groups after about a year and really like what I do now. I still get frustrated with the midlevel I work for and feel like an idiot - but the common refrain I remember from this thread last year was to "hang in there." While it may seem trite, that is exactly what I tried to do. Take it day by day. Make to-do lists and stay focused on daily goals. The thing that plagued me when I wrote this post last year was the ruminating thought: "it's never gonna get better." Well it did get better for me and I think "getting used to biglaw" actually holds true (lawyer caveat: every firm, group, person is different of course).

While I don't know the specifics of your situation, I remember last year that reaching out to this board ( like you have done) and reading these helpful comments from strangers (like me) made me feel so much better. I hope the same for you and please know that you are not alone.

[cavalier1138]

If you're male and you cry because some old geezer yells at or nitpicks at you, you have some serious issues.

If you're sitting behind a computer telling people how to behave according to societal gender standards, you have some serious issues.

Not telling people how to behave. My point is that if the job is negatively affecting your psyche that much you need to find something else ASAP

Not a gender thing have no problem with men crying over family or relationships. I guess I'm just a robot but I can't imagine paper pushing invoking that kind of emotion.

Whoops, accidental anon

If it's not a gender thing, then you don't need to start your idiotic sentence with "If you're a male...".

[Nebby]

If you're male and you cry because some old geezer yells at or nitpicks at you, you have some serious issues.

Brave post you dumb goober

[Anonymous User]

I do corporate and usually when I close a deal, I get a rush of chill go over me and I go from totally wired to just completely zen. I start thinking that maybe this job isn't so bad. A few days ago was one of the first times where I realized that in this job there is no zen just cycles of stress. I closed a deal where I worked 20 days in a row (not even horrible hours - think 65-70 billables a week for 2.5 weeks) and closing was just a total mess and rush where one minute we aren't closing, next minute we are, client refused to set a firm closing date and was leaning on me hard. So the deal closes in the mid afternoon, I do some wrap up and go home. Normally I'm all smiles but this time I got home and my SO had to ask me if I was ok because I was so quiet. Meanwhile, all I could think of was how fried I felt (completely mentally drained) and how I'll maybe get a day or two to rest before the same cycle will start again. I was just paralyzed with the thought of futility and meaninglessness. All of that stress and rushing and worry to get a "thank you" email from my client and partner. Then in a month the same thing will happen for another "good job, thank you". It was the first time I wasn't pissed off or relieved or tired, but just numb.

This job is terrible. You may get used to it, but it usually means your soul is starting to slip away (at least in corporate). I have six figures of debt still, so I decided that if i'm gonna do big law, its not going to be in NYC anymore and that if possible I'd rather just go to a small shop in some cheaper, smaller town and try to have a more chill life and not let the debt run things.

[Anonymous User]

Necro'ing this thread. Just cried at my desk for the first time - about 6 months into my big law job. I am working under a mid-level who is micromanaging me to death. If I misplace a hyphen in a file name, it's a call and a condescending explanation about how important it is to follow the naming conventions. And that's of course on top of all of the actual feedback that you get as a first year on the learning curve. Before law school, I worked at a law firm for several attorneys, one of whom was the definition of a screamer, so it's not like I don't know how to work with lawyers or how to handle feedback, but this is just really taking a toll on me.

I went to HYS, graduated with good grades, and generally consider myself to be a smart and capable person, but this job really makes you question everything.

I guess it didn't really hit me until now what it would be like to work under the types of people you hated in law school.

I'm the original OP of this thread and this honestly brought tears to my eyes to see that I posted this a year ago - and to understand so closely what you are going through. As a now second year associate, I will say that things got so much better. I switched practice groups after about a year and really like what I do now. I still get frustrated with the midlevel I work for and feel like an idiot - but the common refrain I remember from this thread last year was to "hang in there." While it may seem trite, that is exactly what I tried to do. Take it day by day. Make to-do lists and stay focused on daily goals. The thing that plagued me when I wrote this post last year was the ruminating thought: "it's never gonna get better." Well it did get better for me and I think "getting used to biglaw" actually holds true (lawyer caveat: every firm, group, person is different of course).

While I don't know the specifics of your situation, I remember last year that reaching out to this board ( like you have done) and reading these helpful comments from strangers (like me) made me feel so much better. I hope the same for you and please know that you are not alone.

Same here. I absolutely hated my first year. Now, I'm actually kind of good at what I'm doing, know somewhat what I'm doing, and it isn't so bad. Not to say that it doesn't suck when I make that bonehead mistake, but it doesn't happen often. And things I'm better i.e. big picture stuff, is starting to be more of an asset. I could probably do another few years, but that first year was so miserable. Way more miserable than 1L, well at least for me.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Yup around six months in was hardest for me. Now after 3.5 years I halfway hope someone will call me out for some bullshit error like that so I can have a reason to quit.

[Devlin]

I have six figures of debt still, so I decided that if i'm gonna do big law, its not going to be in NYC anymore and that if possible I'd rather just go to a small shop in some cheaper, smaller town and try to have a more chill life and not let the debt run things.

Why more people don't do this surprises me. Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

I'm surprised by the number of people who seem to "like" their biglaw job here. As a first year who feels miserable.. maybe it does get better?

[Johann]

If you're male and you cry because some old geezer yells at or nitpicks at you, you have some serious issues.

Mod edit: user has been warned for sexist douchebaggery.

im a male that had not cried in my adult life except once when i started biglaw. i probably cry about 5-7 times a year now because of the stress that the environment puts on you. usually its unrelated directly to the job, but human bodies have natural biological mechanisms they resort to when you work in a stressful environment and subject yourself to minimal sleep.

its fine. its natural. and its symbolically why the job is highly compensated - because its an undesirable outcome to spend a long term portion of your life doing that has negative consequences on every other part of your life from your mental and physical health to your kids to your spouse.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

The job itself gets more stressful IMO - more responsibility and substantively more difficult. But it gets better in that you will have less debt or no debt at all, so you can up and quit one day if you really wanted to.

Anyway, i've been there, as I'm sure others have been....if it's not crying, it's a feeling of depression/constant anxiety....it seems par for the course with this type job where you are on call 24/7 and work insane hours with constant fire drills.