Top Law Schools

I am a current junior associate who is working at a biglaw shop. I am in the process of attempting to lateral into biglaw in another market within my current region. My question is, how much would poor law school grades (below median) hurt me during this process? Would my few years experience working at a big shop trump the grades?

It depends. A lot of firms don't care much at the lateral stage. Super grade conscious firms still do to varying degrees. If your grades are REALLY bad it might be more of a problem, but a little below median shouldn't be a big deal if you have good experience.

FWIW, I attended a T-20 law school. My grades were pretty far below median due to boning a few classes pretty badly/having a hard time 1L year learning how to take a law school exam. I still managed to land biglaw during 2L OCI and had not worried about grades much since getting offer secured.

Anonymous User wrote:FWIW, I attended a T-20 law school. My grades were pretty far below median due to boning a few classes pretty badly/having a hard time 1L year learning how to take a law school exam. I still managed to land biglaw during 2L OCI and had not worried about grades much since getting offer secured.

Congrats but that's not even close to the question dude

Danger Zone wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:FWIW, I attended a T-20 law school. My grades were pretty far below median due to boning a few classes pretty badly/having a hard time 1L year learning how to take a law school exam. I still managed to land biglaw during 2L OCI and had not worried about grades much since getting offer secured.

Congrats but that's not even close to the question dude

My mistake. I am the OP and that was my response to his answer.

Ah okay, makes more sense now

You're not going to be top of the pile but I doubt you're totally screwed unless you're in lit.

El Pollito wrote:You're not going to be top of the pile but I doubt you're totally screwed unless you're in lit.

OP here - I have already passed the screener phase and was invited for a callback in NY. Do you believe that I am already past the point of grades being a consideration? Also, not lit.

Anonymous User wrote:

El Pollito wrote:You're not going to be top of the pile but I doubt you're totally screwed unless you're in lit.

OP here - I have already passed the screener phase and was invited for a callback in NY. Do you believe that I am already past the point of grades being a consideration? Also, not lit.

Well, the partners still might look at them, but if your interviews go well I doubt they're going to be like "oh this guy we otherwise really like got a C+ 1L year, ding him."

Anonymous User wrote:

El Pollito wrote:You're not going to be top of the pile but I doubt you're totally screwed unless you're in lit.

OP here - I have already passed the screener phase and was invited for a callback in NY. Do you believe that I am already past the point of grades being a consideration? Also, not lit.

No, grades are always a consideration. We have rejected a candidate that was in our "final 3" when we were trying to fill a spot, because the candidates all seemed likeable enough and had decent experience but one bombed 1L year so they got cut.

El Pollito wrote:It depends. A lot of firms don't care much at the lateral stage. Super grade conscious firms still do to varying degrees. If your grades are REALLY bad it might be more of a problem, but a little below median shouldn't be a big deal if you have good experience.

Pretty accurate in my experience. I got a bite on a lateral position but got super dinged once I sent my resume because my grades dropped after 1L year and the firm was strict on its grade cut off.

OP here - Hmmm. Not sure what to think. I will give it a God and if grades are still an issue even after I have worked biglaw for a few years then I suppose it is out of my hands.

Grades always matter for the most selective big firms, unless you have a multi-million dollar book of business.

Anonymous User wrote:OP here - Hmmm. Not sure what to think. I will give it a God and if grades are still an issue even after I have worked biglaw for a few years then I suppose it is out of my hands.

I think it is this. I can say at my current firm, lateral grades are not that important and I haven't seen people really even discuss them (I am on the hiring committee).

But I was at another firm before this one where we scrutinized law school grades (and even UG grades) to a point of ridiculousness. There was one partner in particular that was a nut on this, and totally chewed me out for not knowing that some dude who I interviewed for a senior assoc position got a B- in some random CS class in UG when the dude had graduated UG in the 90s.

patentlitigatrix wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:OP here - Hmmm. Not sure what to think. I will give it a God and if grades are still an issue even after I have worked biglaw for a few years then I suppose it is out of my hands.

I think it is this. I can say at my current firm, lateral grades are not that important and I haven't seen people really even discuss them (I am on the hiring committee).

But I was at another firm before this one where we scrutinized law school grades (and even UG grades) to a point of ridiculousness. There was one partner in particular that was a nut on this, and totally chewed me out for not knowing that some dude who I interviewed for a senior assoc position got a B- in some random CS class in UG when the dude had graduated UG in the 90s.

When you say that lateral grades are not important at your current firm, does that change depending on the law school? or is it pretty much experience over everything?

misterjames wrote:

patentlitigatrix wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:OP here - Hmmm. Not sure what to think. I will give it a God and if grades are still an issue even after I have worked biglaw for a few years then I suppose it is out of my hands.

I think it is this. I can say at my current firm, lateral grades are not that important and I haven't seen people really even discuss them (I am on the hiring committee).

But I was at another firm before this one where we scrutinized law school grades (and even UG grades) to a point of ridiculousness. There was one partner in particular that was a nut on this, and totally chewed me out for not knowing that some dude who I interviewed for a senior assoc position got a B- in some random CS class in UG when the dude had graduated UG in the 90s.

When you say that lateral grades are not important at your current firm, does that change depending on the law school? or is it pretty much experience over everything?

We sort of only hire from a certain set of law schools, including for laterals. So for mid-levels, it becomes more of can this person run discovery? Can this person manage clients and opposing counsel? Can you this person run the invalidity case? Etc. And really importantly, is this person going to be good to work with and a good cultural fit?

just to clarify something for me please, are we talking about grades generally bad on the resume, or some particular bad grades in some obnoxious courses? I have a Sub B- grade 1 L year - That does not stop me from getting a summer SA, but the firm might not render an offer( tough offer rate and humongous class size) for me because of my grades( I know).

So i'm thinking about changing firm, do they give a careful look on the transcript? to be fair, I'm such a spitter, I have a lot of As too.

Anonymous User wrote:just to clarify something for me please, are we talking about grades generally bad on the resume, or some particular bad grades in some obnoxious courses? I have a Sub B- grade 1 L year - That does not stop me from getting a summer SA, but the firm might not render an offer( tough offer rate and humongous class size) for me because of my grades( I know).

So i'm thinking about changing firm, do they give a careful look on the transcript? to be fair, I'm such a spitter, I have a lot of As too.

Huh? You're not going to get no offered for grades they saw when they offered you a summer position.

As a junior to mid-level associate, your grades are still going to be very important in lateral hiring. When considering lateral hires most of the top firms' threshold question is whether they could have hired a candidate directly out of law school based on academic credentials. At my firm this has resulted in candidates from peer firms being turned down because their second and third year grades dropped them below our OCI cutoffs. There are obviously a number of exceptions based the needs of individual firms and practice areas, but you should expect your academic performance to stay with you for quite a while.

The importance of grades will diminish over time, but it does not happen quickly. You will not be able to demonstrate the technical or marketing expertise as a junior or even a mid-level to set yourself apart from other candidates based on your resume alone.

When we're talking about laterals meeting OCI cutoffs, are we talking having 1L grades and maintaining them? Or will a firm that has a 3.5 floor at OCI be fine with a candidate who had a 3.4 1L GPA but brought it up to a 3.6ish GPA, which is a similar rank to the 1L 3.4 because of seminars and such?

inter-associate wrote:As a junior to mid-level associate, your grades are still going to be very important in lateral hiring. When considering lateral hires most of the top firms' threshold question is whether they could have hired a candidate directly out of law school based on academic credentials. At my firm this has resulted in candidates from peer firms being turned down because their second and third year grades dropped them below our OCI cutoffs. There are obviously a number of exceptions based the needs of individual firms and practice areas, but you should expect your academic performance to stay with you for quite a while.

The importance of grades will diminish over time, but it does not happen quickly. You will not be able to demonstrate the technical or marketing expertise as a junior or even a mid-level to set yourself apart from other candidates based on your resume alone.

I think the first paragraph here might be a little misleading (especially if it is not qualified by the second). There is at least *some* drop off in the importance of grades between the time you're interviewing at OCI and the time you're a midlevel. This is particularly true if your practice area is hot. The reason is that big firms only hire laterals from other big firms, and associates at big firms frequently leave to go in house (from which they are almost guaranteed never to be able to get back into a big firm), reducing the overall supply of associates. Thus, it is conceivable (and does happen) that grade cut offs for some firms will be relaxed or, in some cases, even ignored. The problem is that this is all idiosyncratic to the particular firm you're talking about. My old biglaw firm had hard cutoffs for grades below which no one could hire, even for midlevels. But I know of other firms that relax the grade cutoffs after you have a few years of experience.

Any thoughts on whether grades matter for an HYS grad? Or would the degree be enough to make up for lots of P's?

Anonymous User wrote:Any thoughts on whether grades matter for an HYS grad? Or would the degree be enough to make up for lots of P's?

My old firm had grade cutoffs for every school.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:

inter-associate wrote:As a junior to mid-level associate, your grades are still going to be very important in lateral hiring. When considering lateral hires most of the top firms' threshold question is whether they could have hired a candidate directly out of law school based on academic credentials. At my firm this has resulted in candidates from peer firms being turned down because their second and third year grades dropped them below our OCI cutoffs. There are obviously a number of exceptions based the needs of individual firms and practice areas, but you should expect your academic performance to stay with you for quite a while.

The importance of grades will diminish over time, but it does not happen quickly. You will not be able to demonstrate the technical or marketing expertise as a junior or even a mid-level to set yourself apart from other candidates based on your resume alone.

I think the first paragraph here might be a little misleading (especially if it is not qualified by the second). There is at least *some* drop off in the importance of grades between the time you're interviewing at OCI and the time you're a midlevel. This is particularly true if your practice area is hot. The reason is that big firms only hire laterals from other big firms, and associates at big firms frequently leave to go in house (from which they are almost guaranteed never to be able to get back into a big firm), reducing the overall supply of associates. Thus, it is conceivable (and does happen) that grade cut offs for some firms will be relaxed or, in some cases, even ignored. The problem is that this is all idiosyncratic to the particular firm you're talking about. My old biglaw firm had hard cutoffs for grades below which no one could hire, even for midlevels. But I know of other firms that relax the grade cutoffs after you have a few years of experience.

I don't see anything misleading or that contradicts your response. My advice to current students is always the same: you should let up a little and enjoy your last two years of law school, but don't let your grades slide significantly. As a student it is really hard to predict market demand for any given practice area this far away from the time you will be considering a lateral move. It's always safest to prepare for the worst possible scenario (poor lateral market plus firms with strict grade requirements).

Of course, current lateral candidates should ignore this as exceptions abound and they can no longer control academic credentials.

I've worked with a recruiter and from what they tell me grades and pedigree are still important.Perhaps not as important as during oci but they still play a role for most if not all nj250 firms.

The most important factor is your work experience and firm prestige but right under that are your grades and pedigree.Right or wrong, a lot of times they can't verify that you are a good employee so they use grades to judge how diligent you are at work.