1L Minority SA Multiple Dings Forum

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

While I appreciate the response/feedback. I don't want to say I was dinged because of my background/ethnicity. It likely is something to do with my interviewing. I don't want to discredit that any firm would make a choice like that or judge me in that way.

[cron1834]

It's just demonstrably true that if you're using race cynically as an employer, an AA female is a great hire. Also, OP is probably underestimating his competition. Also, OP has conceded some room for improvement in interviewing. ALSO, sometimes shit luck is a factor. With more candidates than jobs, sometimes there are weird outcomes. This isn't unique to law.

There doesn't need to be a racial-identity bogeyman here.

Edit - OP you have a good attitude in recent posts.

[zot1]

OP, comparing rank standing isn't the only way to approach this for a variety of reasons because maybe her school is more prestigious than yours. But you're really understimating your competition and just how much luck goes into the hiring process. I got hired for an in-house counsel clerkship because I had been in the same country that the interviewer had recently traveled to. He literally hired me because he wanted to talk to me about his trip. At this point I was way below most people who applied in terms of grades.

Onto the competition part, maybe this woman did stuff prior to law school that was stellar and you didn't. It happens. Some people were building houses in Africa after high school when I was waiting tables to feed my family. You really don't know what the others have to bring to the table.

If you're as awesome as you think you are, channel that into OCI where you'll have a bigger pool of employees. Also, make sure next time around you don't bank on something, but you also mass mail until you get what you want.

[zot1]

Also, I think you and I both have forgotten slightly the point of this type of diversity programs: to bring minority students into the profession that wouldn't otherwise be in it due to all sorts of disadvantages associated with being part of a minority group.

Maybe these firms interviewed you and thought that you were so qualified (top 5%!!!) that you'd be okay getting a job in the future.

[PeanutsNJam]

Ok guys he's top "5-10%", which means top 10%, at a T1. The market is either Atl or Texas. There are more than enough people to fill those spots with better grades and more diversity at higher ranked schools with ties to the region (UT, UVA, Duke, Vandy, HYS, etc.) Is there any indication that these firms must hire from the local minority program?

[Anonymous User]

Ok guys he's top "5-10%", which means top 10%, at a T1. The market is either Atl or Texas. There are more than enough people to fill those spots with better grades and more diversity at higher ranked schools with ties to the region (UT, UVA, Duke, Vandy, HYS, etc.) Is there any indication that these firms must hire from the local minority program?

OP Here.

Closer to 5% than 10%. And yes, these firms MUST hire from the local law schools in the area, that's part of the program.

[Anonymous User]

Also, I think you and I both have forgotten slightly the point of this type of diversity programs: to bring minority students into the profession that wouldn't otherwise be in it due to all sorts of disadvantages associated with being part of a minority group.

Maybe these firms interviewed you and thought that you were so qualified (top 5%!!!) that you'd be okay getting a job in the future.

While I appreciate your response, that first line of reasoning is what bothers me. To imply that I'm not diverse because I'm only 1/4 Hispanic, while growing up in a Hispanic household my entire life and coupled with the fact that I'm not from a well-off family, is a slap in the face. That is almost saying: Even though you've identified as Hispanic and you ARE Hispanic, we're not going to consider you that because you don't look the part. That is not okay and does bother me. I would understand if I actually wasn't Hispanic and didn't come from a Hispanic family, and tried to pull a Rachel Dolezal, but that is not the case.

However, I really don't think firms would make that judgment call against me. It is obviously my interviewing skills and I am going to take some of the advice that people suggested here and use it to my advantage in OCI for 2L.

[Anonymous User]

OP, comparing rank standing isn't the only way to approach this for a variety of reasons because maybe her school is more prestigious than yours. But you're really understimating your competition and just how much luck goes into the hiring process. I got hired for an in-house counsel clerkship because I had been in the same country that the interviewer had recently traveled to. He literally hired me because he wanted to talk to me about his trip. At this point I was way below most people who applied in terms of grades.

Onto the competition part, maybe this woman did stuff prior to law school that was stellar and you didn't. It happens. Some people were building houses in Africa after high school when I was waiting tables to feed my family. You really don't know what the others have to bring to the table.

If you're as awesome as you think you are, channel that into OCI where you'll have a bigger pool of employees. Also, make sure next time around you don't bank on something, but you also mass mail until you get what you want.

OP here.

Well, I gave ONE example because I only know of this outcome due to a friend at the firm. But getting about ten denials is pretty rough. Also, whichever school she did come from, it wasn't more prestigious because out of the program my school is ranked significantly higher (not that the other schools don't have connections, but they aren't as competitive for admissions). Also, this firm, in particular, recruits heavily out of my school. All that aside, just because there are these advantages, doesn't mean I am and should be entitled to this position, or any of the positions I interviewed for. It's completely and more possible that these other interviewers hit a sweet spot with the interviewers that I didn't. Also, each firm only had ONE position for this minority program. Grades aren't everything, they're just a stepping stone to get you in the door, and once you're in, it's up to you to make that lasting impression -- which is clearly something I need to improve on. Thank you for your response, it is appreciated

[Anonymous User]

It's just demonstrably true that if you're using race cynically as an employer, an AA female is a great hire. Also, OP is probably underestimating his competition. Also, OP has conceded some room for improvement in interviewing. ALSO, sometimes shit luck is a factor. With more candidates than jobs, sometimes there are weird outcomes. This isn't unique to law.

There doesn't need to be a racial-identity bogeyman here.

Edit - OP you have a good attitude in recent posts.

I appreciate your feedback as well as others on this thread. It really was a great experience and I actually made some great connections, a few have already reached out to me and have offered to take me out for coffee and to discuss planning ahead.

Even though I struck out, nothing I can do about it but take this as a learning experience to improve for OCI and beyond.

[zot1]

Also, I think you and I both have forgotten slightly the point of this type of diversity programs: to bring minority students into the profession that wouldn't otherwise be in it due to all sorts of disadvantages associated with being part of a minority group.

Maybe these firms interviewed you and thought that you were so qualified (top 5%!!!) that you'd be okay getting a job in the future.

While I appreciate your response, that first line of reasoning is what bothers me. To imply that I'm not diverse because I'm only 1/4 Hispanic, while growing up in a Hispanic household my entire life and coupled with the fact that I'm not from a well-off family, is a slap in the face. That is almost saying: Even though you've identified as Hispanic and you ARE Hispanic, we're not going to consider you that because you don't look the part. That is not okay and does bother me. I would understand if I actually wasn't Hispanic and didn't come from a Hispanic family, and tried to pull a Rachel Dolezal, but that is not the case.

However, I really don't think firms would make that judgment call against me. It is obviously my interviewing skills and I am going to take some of the advice that people suggested here and use it to my advantage in OCI for 2L.

Nowhere in my comment did I say or hinted at you being less diverse than someone else because you're a 1/4 Hispanic. My point is that the other candidates may have had more struggles than you that you may not be aware about. This has nothing to do with you being 1/4 Hispanic.

[Anonymous User]

Also, I think you and I both have forgotten slightly the point of this type of diversity programs: to bring minority students into the profession that wouldn't otherwise be in it due to all sorts of disadvantages associated with being part of a minority group.

Maybe these firms interviewed you and thought that you were so qualified (top 5%!!!) that you'd be okay getting a job in the future.

While I appreciate your response, that first line of reasoning is what bothers me. To imply that I'm not diverse because I'm only 1/4 Hispanic, while growing up in a Hispanic household my entire life and coupled with the fact that I'm not from a well-off family, is a slap in the face. That is almost saying: Even though you've identified as Hispanic and you ARE Hispanic, we're not going to consider you that because you don't look the part. That is not okay and does bother me. I would understand if I actually wasn't Hispanic and didn't come from a Hispanic family, and tried to pull a Rachel Dolezal, but that is not the case.

However, I really don't think firms would make that judgment call against me. It is obviously my interviewing skills and I am going to take some of the advice that people suggested here and use it to my advantage in OCI for 2L.

Nowhere in my comment did I say or hinted at you being less diverse than someone else because you're a 1/4 Hispanic. My point is that the other candidates may have had more struggles than you that you may not be aware about. This has nothing to do with you being 1/4 Hispanic.

Understandable. But having more "struggles" doesn't necessarily explain my crappy performance. Albeit a possibilty.

[zot1]

I give up.

[ballouttacontrol]

/

[A. Nony Mouse]

No one has implied you're not diverse enough except you, OP. It's possible that a firm in your area regularly sees more Hispanic candidates than they see AA candidates, and therefore an AA applicant may have a better chance than you do. That is not at all the same as saying you, personally, being 1/4, are not diverse enough or Hispanic enough. If the premise of a diversity hire is to bring in underrepresented groups, you may lose out to someone whose group is less represented in that firm than you are.

[Anonymous User]

No one has implied you're not diverse enough except you, OP. It's possible that a firm in your area regularly sees more Hispanic candidates than they see AA candidates, and therefore an AA applicant may have a better chance than you do. That is not at all the same as saying you, personally, being 1/4, are not diverse enough or Hispanic enough. If the premise of a diversity hire is to bring in underrepresented groups, you may lose out to someone whose group is less represented in that firm than you are.

Right, I said that because I initially asked if they were implying that. Go back and read all my responses. I effectively ruled out that a firm would dismiss me on that basis and it's clearly my own poor interviewing skills. Again, the AA was ONE example... And just because they were AA doesn't automatically make them a better candidate -- they could have had a much better profile than me and clicked with an interview moreso than me.

And that's true, but to say that 10 firms don't want someone that's Hispanic is a bit of a stretch, especially in this market.

[NotMyRealName09]

Hey so I read the whole thread, and here is something others alluded to - your communications are laced with entitlement AND desperation. You're afraid and aware of it, and it's coming through. Don't get defensive and reply, and I'm going to go ahead and say this has nothing to do with race. (Yes I know this was a minority 1L program, but if anything that's an equalizer, and we can rule race out of the equation because that factor was the same for everyone - let's not quibble with the nuance here, I don't think minority programs select on the basis of who is diverse the hardest).

For you, it's absolutely about interviewing.

You need to change your mindset. Now don't ask me how I learned what I'm about to say - I was a natural at interviewing during OCI, killed it, surprised myself. Perhaps because I entered law school with low expectations for myself and then wildly exceeded them, OCI was just gravy, and it kept me cool during the process.

So here's the punchline. I laid out my interview philosophy here, and I have to say, I still think it's goddamn gold..... http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... g#p6941746

Here's the crux, and if you want to read further I collected all my old posts on topic at the end of that thread.

Just be yourself! Treat it like a conversation. I like the aforementioned first date approach. Don't try to rehearse for it. I know that is easier said than done, but just keep in mind that your interviewers are norimal people. Most of them are just trying to make conversation with you.

+1

just try to imagine someone you'd want to interview if you were on the other side of the table.... and then.... be that person.

people want to work with people they like being around. so be yourself (if people generally like you in everyday life as you say they do). just relax.

I personally always tried to avoid that point where they're forced to say "so what questions do you have for us."

I'd either try to segway into a conversation about them/their own experiences (people like to talk about themselves) or just take the floor myself and tell them exactly why I am where I am and why I want to work for that firm.

Make it interesting, make yourself stand out in any (normal) way you can. During OCI they have to sit through tons of generic interviews with passive interviewees all day long. try to make yours not so generic. be confident and engage.

I got lots of callbacks, FWIW.

Absolute this - 100%. The question "how did you end up where you are now" will kill 20 minutes every time. It was almost too easy, and I don't even like people. You'd think interviewers would see it coming, but now that I'm interviewing people, heres something weird I learned - the interviewer might not be comfortable either. Meeting strangers is weird, especially when they WANT something from you, and are nervous, and scared of blowing it. So put them at ease - make them think you don't really give a shit if you get THAT job or not, but just want to know more about them. It's fricken crazy how well it worked.

The dating metaphor is truly apt - women don't want desperation, they want the dude that could have any chick in the room. They want the dude who acts like he's too good for them. He's not mean, he might be a little bit of an asshole, he might not even be the best looking guy in the room, but he doesn't give a shit about them and they can't figure out why (because every other dude always wants them), and goddamn it drives them crazy, leaves them wanting more. But one whif of fear or desperation - forget it. Be the alpha. Have a secret. This sounds so cliche but there it is.

So it's there for you, do with it what you will.

[Anonymous User]

Hey so I read the whole thread, and here is something others alluded to - your communications are laced with entitlement AND desperation. You're afraid and aware of it, and it's coming through. Don't get defensive and reply, and I'm going to go ahead and say this has nothing to do with race. (Yes I know this was a minority 1L program, but if anything that's an equalizer, and we can rule race out of the equation because that factor was the same for everyone - let's not quibble with the nuance here, I don't think minority programs select on the basis of who is diverse the hardest).

For you, it's absolutely about interviewing.

You need to change your mindset. Now don't ask me how I learned what I'm about to say - I was a natural at interviewing during OCI, killed it, surprised myself. Perhaps because I entered law school with low expectations for myself and then wildly exceeded them, OCI was just gravy, and it kept me cool during the process.

So here's the punchline. I laid out my interview philosophy here, and I have to say, I still think it's goddamn gold..... http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... g#p6941746

Here's the crux, and if you want to read further I collected all my old posts on topic at the end of that thread.

Just be yourself! Treat it like a conversation. I like the aforementioned first date approach. Don't try to rehearse for it. I know that is easier said than done, but just keep in mind that your interviewers are norimal people. Most of them are just trying to make conversation with you.

+1

just try to imagine someone you'd want to interview if you were on the other side of the table.... and then.... be that person.

people want to work with people they like being around. so be yourself (if people generally like you in everyday life as you say they do). just relax.

I personally always tried to avoid that point where they're forced to say "so what questions do you have for us."

I'd either try to segway into a conversation about them/their own experiences (people like to talk about themselves) or just take the floor myself and tell them exactly why I am where I am and why I want to work for that firm.

Make it interesting, make yourself stand out in any (normal) way you can. During OCI they have to sit through tons of generic interviews with passive interviewees all day long. try to make yours not so generic. be confident and engage.

I got lots of callbacks, FWIW.

Absolute this - 100%. The question "how did you end up where you are now" will kill 20 minutes every time. It was almost too easy, and I don't even like people. You'd think interviewers would see it coming, but now that I'm interviewing people, heres something weird I learned - the interviewer might not be comfortable either. Meeting strangers is weird, especially when they WANT something from you, and are nervous, and scared of blowing it. So put them at ease - make them think you don't really give a shit if you get THAT job or not, but just want to know more about them. It's fricken crazy how well it worked.

The dating metaphor is truly apt - women don't want desperation, they want the dude that could have any chick in the room. They want the dude who acts like he's too good for them. He's not mean, he might be a little bit of an asshole, he might not even be the best looking guy in the room, but he doesn't give a shit about them and they can't figure out why (because every other dude always wants them), and goddamn it drives them crazy, leaves them wanting more. But one whif of fear or desperation - forget it. Be the alpha. Have a secret. This sounds so cliche but there it is.

So it's there for you, do with it what you will.

Thank you, I'll be sure to add this to my interviewing skills.