Kirkland Bonuses? Forum

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:00 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:31 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:55 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:05 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:43 am
3rd/4th yr, 2100 hrs, only 1% above market. Basically the floor. Literally no other DP has been this low, am I the lowest paid bonus in the firm or what?
I am in your class year range with similar hours (and a 2 rating) and mine beat the market by something like 8%. Not even 1.1x.

I’m old enough to be friends with current NSPs who would talk about getting 1.5x just by hitting 200 hours a month. Kirkland has methodically ramped down its multiplier every year since those days.
It’s kind of fascinating. The firm has spent literally decades building a reputation for above market bonuses that has allowed it to recruit laterals in spite of a reputation (fair or not) for being even more sweaty than the other V10 sweatshops. And now, in the face of greater associate attrition than ever, they’ve decided to dismantle that reputation in the course of a couple of years, so that lateral quality and quantity will be negatively impacted.
I'm not quite sure what everyone is complaining about. It's pretty simple - the highest billers get the highest bonuses - you are rewarded proportionally to your revenue generation (that's when you "shatter" the market, not when you bill 2,200/2,300 hours). I received 2.1x market, but I had to work 3,400 hours to get it. Was it worth it? Who knows. I'm alive and much richer.
I call BS. Definitely padding.
…my hours are higher and there was NO padding. Had plenty of days where the physical pain from sleep deprivation was hard to bear but still had to tough it out because of how understaffed we were.
I won’t accuse of padding but I will say anyone billing 3,400 (or more!) is either a psychopath or spineless. Your response makes me think you’re in the latter category so I have some empathy for you. We have to learn how to say no and understand that the job does not require 283 hours billed per month, every month. You can do less and still be a team player who won’t get fired. At that level, it’s the firm’s responsibility to hire reinforcements.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:31 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:55 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:05 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:43 am
3rd/4th yr, 2100 hrs, only 1% above market. Basically the floor. Literally no other DP has been this low, am I the lowest paid bonus in the firm or what?
I am in your class year range with similar hours (and a 2 rating) and mine beat the market by something like 8%. Not even 1.1x.

I’m old enough to be friends with current NSPs who would talk about getting 1.5x just by hitting 200 hours a month. Kirkland has methodically ramped down its multiplier every year since those days.
It’s kind of fascinating. The firm has spent literally decades building a reputation for above market bonuses that has allowed it to recruit laterals in spite of a reputation (fair or not) for being even more sweaty than the other V10 sweatshops. And now, in the face of greater associate attrition than ever, they’ve decided to dismantle that reputation in the course of a couple of years, so that lateral quality and quantity will be negatively impacted.
I'm not quite sure what everyone is complaining about. It's pretty simple - the highest billers get the highest bonuses - you are rewarded proportionally to your revenue generation (that's when you "shatter" the market, not when you bill 2,200/2,300 hours). I received 2.1x market, but I had to work 3,400 hours to get it. Was it worth it? Who knows. I'm alive and much richer.
I call BS. Definitely padding.
Go pound sand, dude. Some people have the integrity to not commit a literal crime (because despite all the joking in this industry, padding is ACTUAL THEFT) and still bill crazy numbers. I personally have never gone above 2600, but I know people that have gone over 3k and I KNOW they are not padding.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by ExpOriental » Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:21 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:00 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:31 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:55 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:05 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:43 am
3rd/4th yr, 2100 hrs, only 1% above market. Basically the floor. Literally no other DP has been this low, am I the lowest paid bonus in the firm or what?
I am in your class year range with similar hours (and a 2 rating) and mine beat the market by something like 8%. Not even 1.1x.

I’m old enough to be friends with current NSPs who would talk about getting 1.5x just by hitting 200 hours a month. Kirkland has methodically ramped down its multiplier every year since those days.
It’s kind of fascinating. The firm has spent literally decades building a reputation for above market bonuses that has allowed it to recruit laterals in spite of a reputation (fair or not) for being even more sweaty than the other V10 sweatshops. And now, in the face of greater associate attrition than ever, they’ve decided to dismantle that reputation in the course of a couple of years, so that lateral quality and quantity will be negatively impacted.
I'm not quite sure what everyone is complaining about. It's pretty simple - the highest billers get the highest bonuses - you are rewarded proportionally to your revenue generation (that's when you "shatter" the market, not when you bill 2,200/2,300 hours). I received 2.1x market, but I had to work 3,400 hours to get it. Was it worth it? Who knows. I'm alive and much richer.
I call BS. Definitely padding.
…my hours are higher and there was NO padding. Had plenty of days where the physical pain from sleep deprivation was hard to bear but still had to tough it out because of how understaffed we were.
I won’t accuse of padding but I will say anyone billing 3,400 (or more!) is either a psychopath or spineless. Your response makes me think you’re in the latter category so I have some empathy for you. We have to learn how to say no and understand that the job does not require 283 hours billed per month, every month. You can do less and still be a team player who won’t get fired. At that level, it’s the firm’s responsibility to hire reinforcements.
I don't see why these can't all be true at the same time.

Anonymous User
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:08 pm

ExpOriental wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:38 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:21 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:00 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:31 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:55 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:05 am


I am in your class year range with similar hours (and a 2 rating) and mine beat the market by something like 8%. Not even 1.1x.

I’m old enough to be friends with current NSPs who would talk about getting 1.5x just by hitting 200 hours a month. Kirkland has methodically ramped down its multiplier every year since those days.
It’s kind of fascinating. The firm has spent literally decades building a reputation for above market bonuses that has allowed it to recruit laterals in spite of a reputation (fair or not) for being even more sweaty than the other V10 sweatshops. And now, in the face of greater associate attrition than ever, they’ve decided to dismantle that reputation in the course of a couple of years, so that lateral quality and quantity will be negatively impacted.
I'm not quite sure what everyone is complaining about. It's pretty simple - the highest billers get the highest bonuses - you are rewarded proportionally to your revenue generation (that's when you "shatter" the market, not when you bill 2,200/2,300 hours). I received 2.1x market, but I had to work 3,400 hours to get it. Was it worth it? Who knows. I'm alive and much richer.
I call BS. Definitely padding.
…my hours are higher and there was NO padding. Had plenty of days where the physical pain from sleep deprivation was hard to bear but still had to tough it out because of how understaffed we were.
I won’t accuse of padding but I will say anyone billing 3,400 (or more!) is either a psychopath or spineless. Your response makes me think you’re in the latter category so I have some empathy for you. We have to learn how to say no and understand that the job does not require 283 hours billed per month, every month. You can do less and still be a team player who won’t get fired. At that level, it’s the firm’s responsibility to hire reinforcements.
I don't see why these can't all be true at the same time.
I’m quoted anon; I agree but I also think padding accusation is pretty serious and I wouldn’t level one of those based on an anonymous post that just says “I billed a shitload of hours.” But I am happy to call people psychopaths and/or spineless.

Joachim2017

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Joachim2017 » Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm

It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Right2BearArms » Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:59 pm

Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
Moral of the story, dont sell 30+% of your life to an institution / profession that doesn't care about you.

Everyone could bill 2000 hours a year and (most of) biglaw would be bearable if hiring/staffing were different. Decisions are made by people making far more money that any associate will, regardless of bonus multiplier, that keeps the wheels turning to churn through people according to the status quo.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Joachim2017 » Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:40 pm

Right2BearArms wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:59 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
Moral of the story, dont sell 30+% of your life to an institution / profession that doesn't care about you.

Everyone could bill 2000 hours a year and (most of) biglaw would be bearable if hiring/staffing were different. Decisions are made by people making far more money that any associate will, regardless of bonus multiplier, that keeps the wheels turning to churn through people according to the status quo.

Right, it's call you have to make based on a cold hard read of the specific firm. What I said is true at Kirkland; less so at smaller elite firms (think of Susman, or Kellogg Hansen, or (obviously) WLRK). At those places, they really do care about retention and associate loyalty, and you know it because the firm puts its money where its mouth is, both in terms of leverage and EOY comp.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:55 pm

Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
The bigger issue with Kirkland is that at this point they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for associate bodies. Compare the academic credentials of Kirkland junior associates to DPW or Cravath. Kirkland has just become a repository for warm bodies who can't get a better job anywhere else, and so it is kind of nutty to think that they would be able to sustain significantly above market bonuses.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Joachim2017 » Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:55 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
The bigger issue with Kirkland is that at this point they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for associate bodies. Compare the academic credentials of Kirkland junior associates to DPW or Cravath. Kirkland has just become a repository for warm bodies who can't get a better job anywhere else, and so it is kind of nutty to think that they would be able to sustain significantly above market bonuses.

As cynical as I am, I totally reject this argument. 90% of the work corporate lawyers do -- whether transactional or litigation -- is just not that intellectually or academically difficult. The people who excel are the people who swallow their egos, put in the time, and make themselves physically available. It's like sports: the best ability is often availability.

The fact that K&E is increasingly composed of lower-tier school graduates doesn't mean anything. ALL of them can do the work necessary for the firm to keep taking on the matters that it does. You don't need a JD from Harvard or Yale to run through a checklist or write a motion to compel or organize a meet-and-confer. Legal work is really not that hard intellectually.

Sure, around 10% of the time, it does pay off to have graduates who are "the best and the brightest." Cutting-edge legal disputes or problems do occasionally arise, and then it's nice to have some of that Ivy League cred. But K&E has enough of them to cover that marginal 10%-ish space: it's got SCOTUS clerks, laterals from WLRK, etc. So I think it's got its bases covered.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:06 am

Sorry if this has been said before, but if multipliers for the same hours are lower this year than last, is it possible K&E just has some sort of percentile-based multiplier system? If true and if average hours were up in 2021, then the amount you have to bill to get the same multiplier as last year would be larger.

Just a thought. If this is what's going on, then shame on K&E.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Dec 25, 2021 4:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:55 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
The bigger issue with Kirkland is that at this point they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for associate bodies. Compare the academic credentials of Kirkland junior associates to DPW or Cravath. Kirkland has just become a repository for warm bodies who can't get a better job anywhere else, and so it is kind of nutty to think that they would be able to sustain significantly above market bonuses.
Also disagree with this. A few of the sharpest students in my class went to K&E and chose it over DPW/CSM.

I also don’t think pedigree in terms of undergrad/law school matters all that much in practice.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:55 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
The bigger issue with Kirkland is that at this point they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for associate bodies. Compare the academic credentials of Kirkland junior associates to DPW or Cravath. Kirkland has just become a repository for warm bodies who can't get a better job anywhere else, and so it is kind of nutty to think that they would be able to sustain significantly above market bonuses.
:roll:

1. Corporate work doesn't need top-of-the-line intellectual horsepower.

2. The marginal difference in associates' credentials between those firms (NY office), at least at my T6, really isn't that wide. It's probably like top 30-40% compared to 25-33%. It's not like K&E is choosing from median and the latter ones are choosing from CoA-level students.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by SGTslaughter » Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:10 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:03 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:41 pm
Of the things to complain about as an nsp, additional tax deferred space should not be one of them…
Why not? I’d rather take $130,000 in my pocket than the firm telling me I’m getting “$150,000” but 40k of that goes into a 401k I can’t touch for 30 years. They do this every year it’s just extra apparent this year because of the slimmed down multiplier. K&E does a lot of this bullshit that no one talks about. How about having to start paying $25,000 out of pocket every year for health insurance w/ a family as an NSP since they stop subsidizing the payment? Don’t see that getting much press either.
This is just a strange take. Do you not contribute to your 401(k)? (Re the plan contribution.)

Now, the health insurance and the self-employment taxes, those are real things that bite and have always compressed the pay.
It’s not a strange take at all? 130k cash in my bank account now (what I’d get at Latham or Sidley or literally any other biglaw firm) is more valuable to me than 110k cash in my bank account now (what I’d get at K&E) plus a 40k contribution into my 401k that is utterly meaningless to me until I’m 60 years old.
I have no dogs in this fight whatsoever, but I just came here to laugh at how hilariously financially illiterate some lawyers are.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:55 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
The bigger issue with Kirkland is that at this point they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for associate bodies. Compare the academic credentials of Kirkland junior associates to DPW or Cravath. Kirkland has just become a repository for warm bodies who can't get a better job anywhere else, and so it is kind of nutty to think that they would be able to sustain significantly above market bonuses.
This is an impressively awful law student brain take. Kirkland has a bunch of associates who are every bit as “credentialed” as at DPW. It also has some more who are not, because Kirkland is busier and needs more. Kirkland has been wildly profitable this year, which is the metric by which employee comp being “sustainable” should be measured.

I would entertain an argument that “Kirkland associates are less desirable than at other V10s, therefore above market comp is not necessary to retain them” as it is at least logical on its face, but I think it has a flawed premise and is missing the fact that Kirkland itself as an employer is less desirable than other V10s due to its sweatshop reputation and it is also busier than the rest (or at least most of them). So it needs to pay more to keep up with its own associate needs. The firm has apparently decided not to pursue fulfilling this goal via year end bonuses; no doubt that there will be big lateral bonuses on the table (if the market stays this way) after the Q1 Kirkland associate churn, which I think will be marginally larger than usual.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:55 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
The bigger issue with Kirkland is that at this point they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for associate bodies. Compare the academic credentials of Kirkland junior associates to DPW or Cravath. Kirkland has just become a repository for warm bodies who can't get a better job anywhere else, and so it is kind of nutty to think that they would be able to sustain significantly above market bonuses.
This is an impressively awful law student brain take. Kirkland has a bunch of associates who are every bit as “credentialed” as at DPW. It also has some more who are not, because Kirkland is busier and needs more. Kirkland has been wildly profitable this year, which is the metric by which employee comp being “sustainable” should be measured.

I would entertain an argument that “Kirkland associates are less desirable than at other V10s, therefore above market comp is not necessary to retain them” as it is at least logical on its face, but I think it has a flawed premise and is missing the fact that Kirkland itself as an employer is less desirable than other V10s due to its sweatshop reputation and it is also busier than the rest (or at least most of them). So it needs to pay more to keep up with its own associate needs. The firm has apparently decided not to pursue fulfilling this goal via year end bonuses; no doubt that there will be big lateral bonuses on the table (if the market stays this way) after the Q1 Kirkland associate churn, which I think will be marginally larger than usual.
Not sure people understand how badly Kirkland associates stack up against Cravath/DPW. Take Tax, for example, where everyone agrees that raw IQ matters a lot. Looking at associates in US offices:

Cravath - Harvard, Stanford, UTexas, Yale(3), Columbia(3), Chicago, NYU, Georgetown, Rutgers.

Kirkland - Chicago (7), Florida, Harvard(7), Northwestern (3), WashU, William & Mary, UTexas (2), Illinois(2), Maryland, NYU(3), Michigan, Indiana, Idaho, Emory(2), Ohio, Boston College, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Yale (lateral from Cravath...lol), Arizona, GW, Berkeley(2), Columbia(3), Wayne State, Irvine, Georgetown

I mean, is Kirkland DLA Piper? No. But is it recruiting anywhere near the level of Cravath/DPW? Absolutely not. And what law student in their right mind would, if given other good options, sign up for Kirkland's path to NSP purgatory? Look, Kirkland is a great place to lateral into as an equity partner, and abuse your poor associates to squeeze out every last dollar for your next mansion. But it is a terrible choice for law students with other decent options, and the numbers speak for themselves. To then think that consistently paying above market bonuses is sustainable is nothing less than crazy.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:16 pm

I was fortunate enough to choose between K&E and CSM/DPW during OCI and ended up selecting K&E, specifically for tax. I think they’re all great firms, with market leading expertise in different sub-specialities within the practice area, and different cultures.

I disagree with your point that tax requires high levels of raw IQ, though I understand that this is a pervasive stereotype. In my experience, tax (probably like most other practice areas) rewards persistence, good communication skills, and the accumulation of lots of practical knowledge.

Even if raw IQ were the benchmark for success in tax, I don’t think law school affiliation is a credible proxy.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:55 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
The bigger issue with Kirkland is that at this point they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for associate bodies. Compare the academic credentials of Kirkland junior associates to DPW or Cravath. Kirkland has just become a repository for warm bodies who can't get a better job anywhere else, and so it is kind of nutty to think that they would be able to sustain significantly above market bonuses.
This is an impressively awful law student brain take. Kirkland has a bunch of associates who are every bit as “credentialed” as at DPW. It also has some more who are not, because Kirkland is busier and needs more. Kirkland has been wildly profitable this year, which is the metric by which employee comp being “sustainable” should be measured.

I would entertain an argument that “Kirkland associates are less desirable than at other V10s, therefore above market comp is not necessary to retain them” as it is at least logical on its face, but I think it has a flawed premise and is missing the fact that Kirkland itself as an employer is less desirable than other V10s due to its sweatshop reputation and it is also busier than the rest (or at least most of them). So it needs to pay more to keep up with its own associate needs. The firm has apparently decided not to pursue fulfilling this goal via year end bonuses; no doubt that there will be big lateral bonuses on the table (if the market stays this way) after the Q1 Kirkland associate churn, which I think will be marginally larger than usual.
Not sure people understand how badly Kirkland associates stack up against Cravath/DPW. Take Tax, for example, where everyone agrees that raw IQ matters a lot. Looking at associates in US offices:

Cravath - Harvard, Stanford, UTexas, Yale(3), Columbia(3), Chicago, NYU, Georgetown, Rutgers.

Kirkland - Chicago (7), Florida, Harvard(7), Northwestern (3), WashU, William & Mary, UTexas (2), Illinois(2), Maryland, NYU(3), Michigan, Indiana, Idaho, Emory(2), Ohio, Boston College, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Yale (lateral from Cravath...lol), Arizona, GW, Berkeley(2), Columbia(3), Wayne State, Irvine, Georgetown

I mean, is Kirkland DLA Piper? No. But is it recruiting anywhere near the level of Cravath/DPW? Absolutely not. And what law student in their right mind would, if given other good options, sign up for Kirkland's path to NSP purgatory? Look, Kirkland is a great place to lateral into as an equity partner, and abuse your poor associates to squeeze out every last dollar for your next mansion. But it is a terrible choice for law students with other decent options, and the numbers speak for themselves. To then think that consistently paying above market bonuses is sustainable is nothing less than crazy.
oh my god you need to touch grass. you’re literally talking about IQ and using law schools as the metric, I can’t imagine how insufferable you are IRL

i agree with the last part of your post.

the k&e obsession on this message board is weird. the discussions are like comparing what frat on your undergrad campus is the top tier, it’s mind-numbingly cringe. these are fucking companies, their goal is to make money. i can only imagine half these posts are from some loser sitting in their nyc apartment waiting for nyu to start classes again. not a soul cares that you think CSM associates have more prestige (and it’s really only applicable to the NY office)

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 5:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:16 pm
I was fortunate enough to choose between K&E and CSM/DPW during OCI and ended up selecting K&E, specifically for tax. I think they’re all great firms, with market leading expertise in different sub-specialities within the practice area, and different cultures.

I disagree with your point that tax requires high levels of raw IQ, though I understand that this is a pervasive stereotype. In my experience, tax (probably like most other practice areas) rewards persistence, good communication skills, and the accumulation of lots of practical knowledge.

Even if raw IQ were the benchmark for success in tax, I don’t think law school affiliation is a credible proxy.
Obviously you are entitled to make the choices that you want to make, but realize that by electing to go to Kirkland you are willingly putting yourself in an environment where the firm (1) gladly brings in lateral equity partners with huge guarantees, treating homegrown equity partners as distinctly second class (and basically indifferent if they leave), (2) explicitly takes the view that its associates are easily replaceable chattel, with the main focus being on lateral recruiting rather than on making any real effort to retain talent, (3) values revenue over all other metrics of success, including culture and financial stability, and (4) has an entire NSP purgatory to squeeze the maximum out of its senior associates before ultimately denying them true partnership and kicking them to a curb. Seems like just a singularly horrible place to work, even in the context of Biglaw.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:55 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
The bigger issue with Kirkland is that at this point they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for associate bodies. Compare the academic credentials of Kirkland junior associates to DPW or Cravath. Kirkland has just become a repository for warm bodies who can't get a better job anywhere else, and so it is kind of nutty to think that they would be able to sustain significantly above market bonuses.
This is an impressively awful law student brain take. Kirkland has a bunch of associates who are every bit as “credentialed” as at DPW. It also has some more who are not, because Kirkland is busier and needs more. Kirkland has been wildly profitable this year, which is the metric by which employee comp being “sustainable” should be measured.

I would entertain an argument that “Kirkland associates are less desirable than at other V10s, therefore above market comp is not necessary to retain them” as it is at least logical on its face, but I think it has a flawed premise and is missing the fact that Kirkland itself as an employer is less desirable than other V10s due to its sweatshop reputation and it is also busier than the rest (or at least most of them). So it needs to pay more to keep up with its own associate needs. The firm has apparently decided not to pursue fulfilling this goal via year end bonuses; no doubt that there will be big lateral bonuses on the table (if the market stays this way) after the Q1 Kirkland associate churn, which I think will be marginally larger than usual.
Not sure people understand how badly Kirkland associates stack up against Cravath/DPW. Take Tax, for example, where everyone agrees that raw IQ matters a lot. Looking at associates in US offices:

Cravath - Harvard, Stanford, UTexas, Yale(3), Columbia(3), Chicago, NYU, Georgetown, Rutgers.

Kirkland - Chicago (7), Florida, Harvard(7), Northwestern (3), WashU, William & Mary, UTexas (2), Illinois(2), Maryland, NYU(3), Michigan, Indiana, Idaho, Emory(2), Ohio, Boston College, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Yale (lateral from Cravath...lol), Arizona, GW, Berkeley(2), Columbia(3), Wayne State, Irvine, Georgetown

I mean, is Kirkland DLA Piper? No. But is it recruiting anywhere near the level of Cravath/DPW? Absolutely not. And what law student in their right mind would, if given other good options, sign up for Kirkland's path to NSP purgatory? Look, Kirkland is a great place to lateral into as an equity partner, and abuse your poor associates to squeeze out every last dollar for your next mansion. But it is a terrible choice for law students with other decent options, and the numbers speak for themselves. To then think that consistently paying above market bonuses is sustainable is nothing less than crazy.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428115
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:46 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:55 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
The bigger issue with Kirkland is that at this point they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for associate bodies. Compare the academic credentials of Kirkland junior associates to DPW or Cravath. Kirkland has just become a repository for warm bodies who can't get a better job anywhere else, and so it is kind of nutty to think that they would be able to sustain significantly above market bonuses.
This is an impressively awful law student brain take. Kirkland has a bunch of associates who are every bit as “credentialed” as at DPW. It also has some more who are not, because Kirkland is busier and needs more. Kirkland has been wildly profitable this year, which is the metric by which employee comp being “sustainable” should be measured.

I would entertain an argument that “Kirkland associates are less desirable than at other V10s, therefore above market comp is not necessary to retain them” as it is at least logical on its face, but I think it has a flawed premise and is missing the fact that Kirkland itself as an employer is less desirable than other V10s due to its sweatshop reputation and it is also busier than the rest (or at least most of them). So it needs to pay more to keep up with its own associate needs. The firm has apparently decided not to pursue fulfilling this goal via year end bonuses; no doubt that there will be big lateral bonuses on the table (if the market stays this way) after the Q1 Kirkland associate churn, which I think will be marginally larger than usual.
Not sure people understand how badly Kirkland associates stack up against Cravath/DPW. Take Tax, for example, where everyone agrees that raw IQ matters a lot. Looking at associates in US offices:

Cravath - Harvard, Stanford, UTexas, Yale(3), Columbia(3), Chicago, NYU, Georgetown, Rutgers.

Kirkland - Chicago (7), Florida, Harvard(7), Northwestern (3), WashU, William & Mary, UTexas (2), Illinois(2), Maryland, NYU(3), Michigan, Indiana, Idaho, Emory(2), Ohio, Boston College, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Yale (lateral from Cravath...lol), Arizona, GW, Berkeley(2), Columbia(3), Wayne State, Irvine, Georgetown

I mean, is Kirkland DLA Piper? No. But is it recruiting anywhere near the level of Cravath/DPW? Absolutely not. And what law student in their right mind would, if given other good options, sign up for Kirkland's path to NSP purgatory? Look, Kirkland is a great place to lateral into as an equity partner, and abuse your poor associates to squeeze out every last dollar for your next mansion. But it is a terrible choice for law students with other decent options, and the numbers speak for themselves. To then think that consistently paying above market bonuses is sustainable is nothing less than crazy.
Tax where all the rainmakers are at CSM and DPW. What an intellectually dishonest take, big law tax is like all big law practices, repetitive and doesn’t take a genius. But wonder why the cravath and Davis Polk powerhouse tax groups arent making millions of dollars a year.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:59 pm

Apologies if I'm being ignorant but my impression was that tax is basically a support/specialist group and is borderline loss leader? Like it's important to have and they actually need to know how to do whatever it is they do, but it's not the profit center. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 5:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:16 pm
I was fortunate enough to choose between K&E and CSM/DPW during OCI and ended up selecting K&E, specifically for tax. I think they’re all great firms, with market leading expertise in different sub-specialities within the practice area, and different cultures.

I disagree with your point that tax requires high levels of raw IQ, though I understand that this is a pervasive stereotype. In my experience, tax (probably like most other practice areas) rewards persistence, good communication skills, and the accumulation of lots of practical knowledge.

Even if raw IQ were the benchmark for success in tax, I don’t think law school affiliation is a credible proxy.
Obviously you are entitled to make the choices that you want to make, but realize that by electing to go to Kirkland you are willingly putting yourself in an environment where the firm (1) gladly brings in lateral equity partners with huge guarantees, treating homegrown equity partners as distinctly second class (and basically indifferent if they leave), (2) explicitly takes the view that its associates are easily replaceable chattel, with the main focus being on lateral recruiting rather than on making any real effort to retain talent, (3) values revenue over all other metrics of success, including culture and financial stability, and (4) has an entire NSP purgatory to squeeze the maximum out of its senior associates before ultimately denying them true partnership and kicking them to a curb. Seems like just a singularly horrible place to work, even in the context of Biglaw.

do you work at Kirkland? and if not, what firm do you work at?

Anonymous User
Posts: 428115
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:55 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:54 pm
It is funny to me that some Kirkland associates are surprised that their multiplier for EOY bonus is lower than they expected relative to hours, or what it would be relative to K&E's older multipliers 5-10 years ago. Folks, look at the firm's size and rate of attrition. They just are not going to give you high multipliers anymore, at least not anywhere near the kind of premium you see at smaller elite firms.

Kirkland's whole model is now based on an impersonal, corporate, mechanized, churn-and-burn machine. They don't care that you will leave because of a lower multiplier after logging 2300 hours, they'll just replace you with a lateral who will do the same next year. And when that lateral leaves next year, they'll rinse and repeat all over again the year after that.

If you want to take pride in a firm that takes care of its associates, or expect to be rewarded through multipliers materially higher than market, K&E is not the place for you. The proof has been in the pudding for some years now.
The bigger issue with Kirkland is that at this point they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for associate bodies. Compare the academic credentials of Kirkland junior associates to DPW or Cravath. Kirkland has just become a repository for warm bodies who can't get a better job anywhere else, and so it is kind of nutty to think that they would be able to sustain significantly above market bonuses.
This is an impressively awful law student brain take. Kirkland has a bunch of associates who are every bit as “credentialed” as at DPW. It also has some more who are not, because Kirkland is busier and needs more. Kirkland has been wildly profitable this year, which is the metric by which employee comp being “sustainable” should be measured.

I would entertain an argument that “Kirkland associates are less desirable than at other V10s, therefore above market comp is not necessary to retain them” as it is at least logical on its face, but I think it has a flawed premise and is missing the fact that Kirkland itself as an employer is less desirable than other V10s due to its sweatshop reputation and it is also busier than the rest (or at least most of them). So it needs to pay more to keep up with its own associate needs. The firm has apparently decided not to pursue fulfilling this goal via year end bonuses; no doubt that there will be big lateral bonuses on the table (if the market stays this way) after the Q1 Kirkland associate churn, which I think will be marginally larger than usual.
Not sure people understand how badly Kirkland associates stack up against Cravath/DPW. Take Tax, for example, where everyone agrees that raw IQ matters a lot. Looking at associates in US offices:

Cravath - Harvard, Stanford, UTexas, Yale(3), Columbia(3), Chicago, NYU, Georgetown, Rutgers.

Kirkland - Chicago (7), Florida, Harvard(7), Northwestern (3), WashU, William & Mary, UTexas (2), Illinois(2), Maryland, NYU(3), Michigan, Indiana, Idaho, Emory(2), Ohio, Boston College, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Yale (lateral from Cravath...lol), Arizona, GW, Berkeley(2), Columbia(3), Wayne State, Irvine, Georgetown

I mean, is Kirkland DLA Piper? No. But is it recruiting anywhere near the level of Cravath/DPW? Absolutely not. And what law student in their right mind would, if given other good options, sign up for Kirkland's path to NSP purgatory? Look, Kirkland is a great place to lateral into as an equity partner, and abuse your poor associates to squeeze out every last dollar for your next mansion. But it is a terrible choice for law students with other decent options, and the numbers speak for themselves. To then think that consistently paying above market bonuses is sustainable is nothing less than crazy.
Once again, pure law student brain. Putting aside the issue already commented on (cherry picking the tax group and looking at law schools as proxy for firm recruiting prowess is really dumb)… there is still a missing logical link between the claims “Kirkland cannot compete with Cravath for associate talent” and “Kirkland cannot sustainably pay above market bonuses.” The claims are not related.

Also the claim that Kirkland is a terrible choice for law students - which many at KE would agree with, for lots of reasons - is apparently linked to the claim that you will have peers in the tax group from Wayne State and Indiana, but at Cravath you’d probably be able to avoid the Rutgers trash and be surrounded by prestige. LOL.

I thank the biglaw god every day that I was able to escape this mindset shortly after OCI when one of my classmates had a semi-public breakdown for not getting an offer from any V10 firm since that was on their list of goals for the year. Not for any reason other than V10 = good.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:34 am

So...did we not get special bonuses? Last year, bonuses were broken down between year-end and special, but this year it seems to have all been lumped into year end. If that's the case, then the multiplier is even worse than I thought, unless I didn't get the special bonus for some reason.

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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:41 am

Special bonuses were lumped into the year-end. So yes the multipliers were much lower than before.

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