I've posted so much info here you could compile my obituary, and somehow you fucked up everything you bothered to look for in my profile, which I'm guessing you did because you didn't feel like responding to the idea that taking pride in billing 2700 is weird.impactplayer wrote:Judging by your profile, you're a third year who went to UVA. No one gives a shit about what you think so stop chiming in on the Kirkland thread. You're a caricature of a bitter junior associate with your Patrick Bateman profile picture. Go finish your due diligence report.Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Nope, not even close to Wachtell, but at least there you’d be getting real money for wrecking your life.rahulg91 wrote:Maybe I’m mixing up my gaping assholes, but aren’t you the same douche who worked at Wachtell?Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:LOL yeah you definitely had to bill 2700; no other non-sweatshop options available!Anonymous User wrote:I think we all understand that if you break down the extra juice provided by K&E, it's not exactly a great deal on an hourly basis. But, for many of us, we had to work those hours regardless and couldn't exactly turn down work. So, to get paid extra money, instead of working for free, is still better.
Although maybe the kind of person who would ever, in their sick mind, think they *had* to bill 2700 was bound to pick Kirkland at OCI. It’s very tragic, in a Greek sort of way.
No one is saying that there aren’t non-sweatshop options. Plenty of firms have lower billable expectations, plenty of firms also just generally have less work, people are free to go to them. This thread is about people getting a realistic look at KE comp and associated hours.
Don’t really understand the heckling.
You have every right to have your Kirkland thread, but I have every right to find it hilarious when your extra efforts turn out to be librarian-level hourly wages and you act like you “have to” do them instead of going to any number of places where you’re far less likely to bill 2700.
Kirkland Bonuses? Forum
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- Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
No one is taking pride in it, it's just a fact that some people bill that amount at a lot of top firms, and the only thing that seems weird is your bitterness toward it all.Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:I've posted so much info here you could compile my obituary, and somehow you fucked up everything you bothered to look for in my profile, which I'm guessing you did because you didn't feel like responding to the idea that taking pride in billing 2700 is weird.impactplayer wrote:Judging by your profile, you're a third year who went to UVA. No one gives a shit about what you think so stop chiming in on the Kirkland thread. You're a caricature of a bitter junior associate with your Patrick Bateman profile picture. Go finish your due diligence report.Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Nope, not even close to Wachtell, but at least there you’d be getting real money for wrecking your life.rahulg91 wrote:Maybe I’m mixing up my gaping assholes, but aren’t you the same douche who worked at Wachtell?Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:LOL yeah you definitely had to bill 2700; no other non-sweatshop options available!Anonymous User wrote:I think we all understand that if you break down the extra juice provided by K&E, it's not exactly a great deal on an hourly basis. But, for many of us, we had to work those hours regardless and couldn't exactly turn down work. So, to get paid extra money, instead of working for free, is still better.
Although maybe the kind of person who would ever, in their sick mind, think they *had* to bill 2700 was bound to pick Kirkland at OCI. It’s very tragic, in a Greek sort of way.
No one is saying that there aren’t non-sweatshop options. Plenty of firms have lower billable expectations, plenty of firms also just generally have less work, people are free to go to them. This thread is about people getting a realistic look at KE comp and associated hours.
Don’t really understand the heckling.
You have every right to have your Kirkland thread, but I have every right to find it hilarious when your extra efforts turn out to be librarian-level hourly wages and you act like you “have to” do them instead of going to any number of places where you’re far less likely to bill 2700.
This is a K&E comp thread. K&E is not a place that you can really turn down work (similar to most other firms of that level). Obviously people could choose to go to a more lifestyle shop like one it sounds like you're at, but: (1) K&E looks better on a resume if you decide to lateral, go in-house, etc.; (2) the more lifestyle friendly firm may not have enough work to keep you employed in a downturn (so now see point 1); and (3) the people I've worked with that have come from sweatshop firms are mostly pretty sharp lawyers because they just worked a lot more than their counterparts @ other firms, so if you have the stamina to bill north of 2500, why not do it for a few years and maximize your skillset?
- UnfrozenCaveman
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
Can't tell what's more entertaining, the daggers that come out over Kirkland comp and hours or NY v. TX...
- LaLiLuLeLo
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
lol @ taking pride in billing in the mid 2000s
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
Also lol that you can't turn down work at Kirkland. That is how you end up with hours like that.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
apparently KE has perfected the thing that every other law firm has aspired to for the last 150 years - turned their associates into literal slaves.eastcoast_iub wrote:Also lol that you can't turn down work at Kirkland. That is how you end up with hours like that.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
to be clear, I work at K&E and you can turn down work. Not lol'ing at K&E being a sweatshop (although it certainly is for many).dabigchina wrote:apparently KE has perfected the thing that every other law firm has aspired to for the last 150 years - turned their associates into literal slaves.eastcoast_iub wrote:Also lol that you can't turn down work at Kirkland. That is how you end up with hours like that.
- Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
If you can bill 2500 for 5+ years and it never at any point burns you out or makes you miserable, more power to you, but most people aren't like that. I'd venture to say even most Kirkland associates are not like that. Maybe you really do get better in-house opportunities, or job security (although didn't you guys just hire 300 summers or something? Not exactly prepping for the recession), or chances at real partnership (not the every-7th-year's-a-partner title inflation going on over there). I'm *certain* billing 2500 will at least make you good at whatever it is you're doing.TigerIsBack wrote:No one is taking pride in it, it's just a fact that some people bill that amount at a lot of top firms, and the only thing that seems weird is your bitterness toward it all.Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
I've posted so much info here you could compile my obituary, and somehow you fucked up everything you bothered to look for in my profile, which I'm guessing you did because you didn't feel like responding to the idea that taking pride in billing 2700 is weird.
This is a K&E comp thread. K&E is not a place that you can really turn down work (similar to most other firms of that level). Obviously people could choose to go to a more lifestyle shop like one it sounds like you're at, but: (1) K&E looks better on a resume if you decide to lateral, go in-house, etc.; (2) the more lifestyle friendly firm may not have enough work to keep you employed in a downturn (so now see point 1); and (3) the people I've worked with that have come from sweatshop firms are mostly pretty sharp lawyers because they just worked a lot more than their counterparts @ other firms, so if you have the stamina to bill north of 2500, why not do it for a few years and maximize your skillset?
It just seems like promises of a bunch of nebulous, intangible benefits that may or may not manifest now versus the absolute certainty of wrecking even an approximation of a normal life in your twenties, with the only concrete benefit being the $20/hour post-tax or whatever it is you're getting. If it's true that you really can't turn down that level of work...maybe that's something to think about in a macro sense. Hey, at least the Kirklands and Quinns of the world are getting paid extra for what is apparently their inexorable extra drudgery; the Cravath/S&Cs of the world are just "expected" to bill those hours and try not to think about why some dude from their law school class who coasted to median at Fried Frank is outearning them.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
Yeah not sure who is spreading the idea you can't turn down work, although not sure what the situation is like at smaller offices/practice groups where there may be fewer associates or whatever.eastcoast_iub wrote:to be clear, I work at K&E and you can turn down work. Not lol'ing at K&E being a sweatshop (although it certainly is for many).dabigchina wrote:apparently KE has perfected the thing that every other law firm has aspired to for the last 150 years - turned their associates into literal slaves.eastcoast_iub wrote:Also lol that you can't turn down work at Kirkland. That is how you end up with hours like that.
ANYWAYS, not that this weird detour wasn't fun, BUT BACK TO THE BONE-US, when did that meeting happen last year when they tell us how everything is static this year despite all dem PPP gainz?
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
Just checked my calendar. December 17 was the fateful day. Individual bonus emails went out on the 19th. Can't wait for another BONE-US this year.OneTwoThreeFour wrote:Yeah not sure who is spreading the idea you can't turn down work, although not sure what the situation is like at smaller offices/practice groups where there may be fewer associates or whatever.eastcoast_iub wrote:to be clear, I work at K&E and you can turn down work. Not lol'ing at K&E being a sweatshop (although it certainly is for many).dabigchina wrote:apparently KE has perfected the thing that every other law firm has aspired to for the last 150 years - turned their associates into literal slaves.eastcoast_iub wrote:Also lol that you can't turn down work at Kirkland. That is how you end up with hours like that.
ANYWAYS, not that this weird detour wasn't fun, BUT BACK TO THE BONE-US, when did that meeting happen last year when they tell us how everything is static this year despite all dem PPP gainz?
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
How’d everyone do? I’m clocking in at 2800, 1.8x Milbank Scale.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
Junior, just over 2100, 1.3x
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
Senior, ~1800, 1.1x. I know someone else my year who also had relatively low hours and got ~1.05x.
I'm very interested in how the average bonus has been changing over the years. In 2017, they told us the average bonus across class years was like 1.3x (and there was a 1.05x floor), last year the presentation said the average was 1.25x and this year it was 1.2x. And the statistics are always conspicuously limited to people who got a rating of 3 or better. Would love to have some more insight into how many people are getting ratings below 3. I'd expect when the next recession comes they're going to start fucking people on ratings so they don't have to pay them as much while still being able to state that everyone gets above market.
I'm very interested in how the average bonus has been changing over the years. In 2017, they told us the average bonus across class years was like 1.3x (and there was a 1.05x floor), last year the presentation said the average was 1.25x and this year it was 1.2x. And the statistics are always conspicuously limited to people who got a rating of 3 or better. Would love to have some more insight into how many people are getting ratings below 3. I'd expect when the next recession comes they're going to start fucking people on ratings so they don't have to pay them as much while still being able to state that everyone gets above market.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
1800 hours and 1.1x Milbank is pretty dope.Anonymous User wrote:Senior, ~1800, 1.1x. I know someone else my year who also had relatively low hours and got ~1.05x.
I'm very interested in how the average bonus has been changing over the years. In 2017, they told us the average bonus across class years was like 1.3x (and there was a 1.05x floor), last year the presentation said the average was 1.25x and this year it was 1.2x. And the statistics are always conspicuously limited to people who got a rating of 3 or better. Would love to have some more insight into how many people are getting ratings below 3. I'd expect when the next recession comes they're going to start fucking people on ratings so they don't have to pay them as much while still being able to state that everyone gets above market.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
The juniors I know are generally happy, though I don’t think that’s the group that could really be disappointed (since they are typically narrowly above market scale regardless).
Junior, less than 1900 hours, still above Milbank by a couple percent.
I also assume everyone who’s only sharing their hours got a 3 rating.
Junior, less than 1900 hours, still above Milbank by a couple percent.
I also assume everyone who’s only sharing their hours got a 3 rating.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
Pretty sure if you get worse than 3 rating you get under-market bonus. Last year I know of a junior associate who got worse than a 3 and got 0.5x Milbank bonus.Anonymous User wrote:The juniors I know are generally happy, though I don’t think that’s the group that could really be disappointed (since they are typically narrowly above market scale regardless).
Junior, less than 1900 hours, still above Milbank by a couple percent.
I also assume everyone who’s only sharing their hours got a 3 rating.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
I have never heard of someone getting below class ratings, people just leave.Anonymous User wrote:Senior, ~1800, 1.1x. I know someone else my year who also had relatively low hours and got ~1.05x.
I'm very interested in how the average bonus has been changing over the years. In 2017, they told us the average bonus across class years was like 1.3x (and there was a 1.05x floor), last year the presentation said the average was 1.25x and this year it was 1.2x. And the statistics are always conspicuously limited to people who got a rating of 3 or better. Would love to have some more insight into how many people are getting ratings below 3. I'd expect when the next recession comes they're going to start fucking people on ratings so they don't have to pay them as much while still being able to state that everyone gets above market.
FWIW, Senior, above-class, 1.3x @ 2000.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
From what I hear, isn't "below 3" = "you should jump before you're pushed" anyway?Anonymous User wrote:I have never heard of someone getting below class ratings, people just leave.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
This is the first time I've posted on TLS in several years, but I recently just left K&E and wanted to jump in on this topic. Apologies in advance for a long post, but there's a lot to unpack here. I realize that this is just my experience and that others (especially folks in other offices / practice groups) may have different views / experiences, so take this for what it's worth.
I don't want to give too many details about myself, so to keep things vague, I went to at V5 firm out of law school and then lateraled to K&E a few years later. Boy was it a "grass is greener" jump. The money was good, but the culture was pretty awful by comparison, and the hours were downright miserable. I left recently and forewent my bonus because, after a certain point, it just wasn't worth it. For example, I billed over 2,000 during the first 6 months of this year - that's almost twice as much as my former job as a biglaw associate. The "free market system" (which I guess is now called the "open assignment system")? It works great if partners take "no" for an answer, but (at least in my experience) you'll generally get a "we're all busy" if you try to say "sorry I'm slammed right now" to turn down work. If you accepted a project 6 months ago and it died and you hadn't really done any work on it, but then it suddenly comes back in the middle of several other massive killer deals? Sorry, but you already said yes! Also, there is no central work coordinator, so often times different partners will have no idea what you're working on or how busy you are when they come by to staff you on something. If they wanted to, they (even the non-share partners ("NSP")) could see your hours and be like "oh hey, that associate is probably dying right now" ... but most of them won't, especially the bad ones. There would be times when I wouldn't even be asked - I would just start getting emails from the partner to the client cc'ing me for a new project and that's how I would find out that I was on it.
Speaking of NSPs, the NSP setup felt almost like a pyramid scheme. A lot of the NSPs I worked with had one foot out the door (and, sure enough, by the time I'd left, they'd actually moved on to other positions). You generally have about 5 years to make it to share partner once you make NSP, but a lot of the folks get the title "Partner" and then, in terms of putting it on their resume and applying to other positions, they're set, so they milk it for those years and then just move on to become a real partner somewhere else or take up some sweet position outside of biglaw. And by "milk it" I mean do almost no work and just push everything down, and be generally unresponsive - even when it is closing day for a deal and you're having to sign-off on things as a junior or mid-level associate because the NSP isn't responding to calls/emails from the client. Annoyingly, making NSP at K&E is very easy - if you're halfway competent and stick around, you'll generally make it. They're basically glorified senior associates / special counsel but with the "partner" title. Even internally it's hard to tell who is SP vs NSP - most SPs have "P.C." in their email signatures (the firm helps them become P.C.s for tax purposes), but some don't, so you basically have to look at the email groups they're members of to see if they're part of the NSP or the SP email group if you don't already know. They really hide the ball with that one so NSPs can throw around the "Partner" title, which has the aforementioned consequences. My theory is that it's probably about being able to bill clients more for "partner" time on deals. Despite many bad NSPs, I really liked a lot of the SPs in my group. We all seemed to be mutually sad that things didn't work out; they tried to incentive me to stick around and said that I was on track (again, to avoid giving specifics, on their system was >3), but I just couldn't stand that system, and I didn't want to have to try to work my way up/through it to be in a position to try to fix it. And I wasn't alone - more than two thirds of the associates that they had brought into my group in recent years left within one year, so retention was awful, which carried its own problems.
Just a little more info - this year, K&E held an associates' town hall meeting where they announced that the firm is booming. We finally beat L&W and were swimming in cash! Of course, that did not tie into a summer bonus or anything. It was just to give us a pat on the back and let us know that we were part of something bigger. About a month or so later, they held a meeting where they told us that we are paid biglaw money so that our "lives to be disrupted." If you thought that you were getting paid more at K&E because you're working on cutting-edge deals where you're coming up with innovative terms that are completely off market, or because you went to a great law school and are doing sophisticated stuff that only someone of your caliber can handle, nope. It's apparently because they need someone who is semi-competent who can be available 24/7. They even implemented a new "Kirkland Concierge" system and were advertising stuff like, "Don't have time to pick out your anniversary gift? Let us help you with that!" That kind of made sense because, unlike my previous firm, all of the holiday and other parties were not "plus ones," so you would basically never get to see your significant other - even though we lived together it often felt like we were in a long-distance relationship while I was at K&E. After experience that, it was no surprised that I would see firm-wide emails being circulated regularly for recommendations for family law / divorce lawyers.
In any event, I’ve now moved on to actually greener pastures, but just wanted to share some of this info for anyone who may be considering K&E because of their “market shattering bonuses.” There are some really nice/smart people there, and I generally got along with all of the associates and SPs I worked with, but there were way to many bad NSPs who abused their position to make it worth sticking around in my case.
I don't want to give too many details about myself, so to keep things vague, I went to at V5 firm out of law school and then lateraled to K&E a few years later. Boy was it a "grass is greener" jump. The money was good, but the culture was pretty awful by comparison, and the hours were downright miserable. I left recently and forewent my bonus because, after a certain point, it just wasn't worth it. For example, I billed over 2,000 during the first 6 months of this year - that's almost twice as much as my former job as a biglaw associate. The "free market system" (which I guess is now called the "open assignment system")? It works great if partners take "no" for an answer, but (at least in my experience) you'll generally get a "we're all busy" if you try to say "sorry I'm slammed right now" to turn down work. If you accepted a project 6 months ago and it died and you hadn't really done any work on it, but then it suddenly comes back in the middle of several other massive killer deals? Sorry, but you already said yes! Also, there is no central work coordinator, so often times different partners will have no idea what you're working on or how busy you are when they come by to staff you on something. If they wanted to, they (even the non-share partners ("NSP")) could see your hours and be like "oh hey, that associate is probably dying right now" ... but most of them won't, especially the bad ones. There would be times when I wouldn't even be asked - I would just start getting emails from the partner to the client cc'ing me for a new project and that's how I would find out that I was on it.
Speaking of NSPs, the NSP setup felt almost like a pyramid scheme. A lot of the NSPs I worked with had one foot out the door (and, sure enough, by the time I'd left, they'd actually moved on to other positions). You generally have about 5 years to make it to share partner once you make NSP, but a lot of the folks get the title "Partner" and then, in terms of putting it on their resume and applying to other positions, they're set, so they milk it for those years and then just move on to become a real partner somewhere else or take up some sweet position outside of biglaw. And by "milk it" I mean do almost no work and just push everything down, and be generally unresponsive - even when it is closing day for a deal and you're having to sign-off on things as a junior or mid-level associate because the NSP isn't responding to calls/emails from the client. Annoyingly, making NSP at K&E is very easy - if you're halfway competent and stick around, you'll generally make it. They're basically glorified senior associates / special counsel but with the "partner" title. Even internally it's hard to tell who is SP vs NSP - most SPs have "P.C." in their email signatures (the firm helps them become P.C.s for tax purposes), but some don't, so you basically have to look at the email groups they're members of to see if they're part of the NSP or the SP email group if you don't already know. They really hide the ball with that one so NSPs can throw around the "Partner" title, which has the aforementioned consequences. My theory is that it's probably about being able to bill clients more for "partner" time on deals. Despite many bad NSPs, I really liked a lot of the SPs in my group. We all seemed to be mutually sad that things didn't work out; they tried to incentive me to stick around and said that I was on track (again, to avoid giving specifics, on their system was >3), but I just couldn't stand that system, and I didn't want to have to try to work my way up/through it to be in a position to try to fix it. And I wasn't alone - more than two thirds of the associates that they had brought into my group in recent years left within one year, so retention was awful, which carried its own problems.
Just a little more info - this year, K&E held an associates' town hall meeting where they announced that the firm is booming. We finally beat L&W and were swimming in cash! Of course, that did not tie into a summer bonus or anything. It was just to give us a pat on the back and let us know that we were part of something bigger. About a month or so later, they held a meeting where they told us that we are paid biglaw money so that our "lives to be disrupted." If you thought that you were getting paid more at K&E because you're working on cutting-edge deals where you're coming up with innovative terms that are completely off market, or because you went to a great law school and are doing sophisticated stuff that only someone of your caliber can handle, nope. It's apparently because they need someone who is semi-competent who can be available 24/7. They even implemented a new "Kirkland Concierge" system and were advertising stuff like, "Don't have time to pick out your anniversary gift? Let us help you with that!" That kind of made sense because, unlike my previous firm, all of the holiday and other parties were not "plus ones," so you would basically never get to see your significant other - even though we lived together it often felt like we were in a long-distance relationship while I was at K&E. After experience that, it was no surprised that I would see firm-wide emails being circulated regularly for recommendations for family law / divorce lawyers.
In any event, I’ve now moved on to actually greener pastures, but just wanted to share some of this info for anyone who may be considering K&E because of their “market shattering bonuses.” There are some really nice/smart people there, and I generally got along with all of the associates and SPs I worked with, but there were way to many bad NSPs who abused their position to make it worth sticking around in my case.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
As a KE associate I don’t have the same hellish experience you describe, but the quoted portion here is the weirdest thing about the firm. It comes across as needlessly cheap to have lavish open bar events with good liquor and not invite people’s spouses or boyfriends. Maybe that’s how we get the above market bonuses though.Anonymous User wrote:That kind of made sense because, unlike my previous firm, all of the holiday and other parties were not "plus ones," so you would basically never get to see your significant other - even though we lived together it often felt like we were in a long-distance relationship while I was at K&E.
- LaLiLuLeLo
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
For what it’s worth, the assignment system you describe and partners being clueless about how busy you are/your hours has been my experience at two firms which are very different from each other and not v10s. I even got complimented in a review because the partner didn’t realize I was already doing 100 hour weeks when he put me on another deal and he “didn’t even notice you were drowning! You handled it well.”
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
+1 yeah dude, fuck the "no plus one" policy at the holiday party/events, it is some seriously TTT shit.Anonymous User wrote:As a KE associate I don’t have the same hellish experience you describe, but the quoted portion here is the weirdest thing about the firm. It comes across as needlessly cheap to have lavish open bar events with good liquor and not invite people’s spouses or boyfriends. Maybe that’s how we get the above market bonuses though.Anonymous User wrote:That kind of made sense because, unlike my previous firm, all of the holiday and other parties were not "plus ones," so you would basically never get to see your significant other - even though we lived together it often felt like we were in a long-distance relationship while I was at K&E.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
lol, the whole "Concierge" shtick doesn't come off NEARLY as well as they think it does, it is literally a whole program premised off the fact that the firm works associates too hard to attend to basic life functions...Anonymous User wrote:They even implemented a new "Kirkland Concierge" system and were advertising stuff like, "Don't have time to pick out your anniversary gift? Let us help you with that!"
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
SF office allowed plus ones this yearAnonymous User wrote:+1 yeah dude, fuck the "no plus one" policy at the holiday party/events, it is some seriously TTT shit.Anonymous User wrote:As a KE associate I don’t have the same hellish experience you describe, but the quoted portion here is the weirdest thing about the firm. It comes across as needlessly cheap to have lavish open bar events with good liquor and not invite people’s spouses or boyfriends. Maybe that’s how we get the above market bonuses though.Anonymous User wrote:That kind of made sense because, unlike my previous firm, all of the holiday and other parties were not "plus ones," so you would basically never get to see your significant other - even though we lived together it often felt like we were in a long-distance relationship while I was at K&E.
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Re: Kirkland Bonuses?
There were plus ones at atleast one big event at the Houston office as well.Anonymous User wrote:SF office allowed plus ones this yearAnonymous User wrote:+1 yeah dude, fuck the "no plus one" policy at the holiday party/events, it is some seriously TTT shit.Anonymous User wrote:As a KE associate I don’t have the same hellish experience you describe, but the quoted portion here is the weirdest thing about the firm. It comes across as needlessly cheap to have lavish open bar events with good liquor and not invite people’s spouses or boyfriends. Maybe that’s how we get the above market bonuses though.Anonymous User wrote:That kind of made sense because, unlike my previous firm, all of the holiday and other parties were not "plus ones," so you would basically never get to see your significant other - even though we lived together it often felt like we were in a long-distance relationship while I was at K&E.
Anon because post history would reveal who I am.
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