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(Background stuff that will be relevant later: I'm a practicing attorney in a small market. My firm is the proverbial big fish in a small pond in that other attorneys in the area tend to know us and we have a good reputation a.k.a. make the most money. I also have done OCI interviews twice.)

I was at court today, where I met a 2L who is interning with the DA's office on a couple days out of the week when she apparently doesn't have class.

We chatted briefly. At first, she was charmingly awkward in an expected way. I'm sure this woman's parents are exceedingly proud of her. Then at some point, the Asst. DA formally introduced us and mentioned that I am a partner at XYZ firm. Within the next 45 seconds, the student managed to mention the following information:

1. She is on scholarship
2. She is a veteran, so she knows how to conduct herself under pressure and thus in a courtroom.
3. She wants to work in the area and is married with kids
4. She wants to do "real estate and transaction work" moreso than criminal law
5. She's got another internship lined up in the fall
6. She's going to graduate with no student loan debt b/c scholarship

I would say that the issues with her approach are obvious, but apparently not. In case there is another person like her reading this, let me do you a favor and point out the problems.

1. Save scholarships for your resume or if they directly arise in conversation. Hint: they won't directly arise in conversation.
2. Don't say that shit. Problem is, I'm a veteran too and know plenty of veterans who don't belong anywhere near a courtroom.
3. Ok, the first half of this is cool ... the family stuff is a little TMI for an elevator pitch. Save this one for lunch.
4. You're not even a lawyer yet. Unless you're talking to a biglaw partner, you probably don't get to pick what you do as an associate. Maybe go with, "Long-term, I would like to develop a transactional practice focused on real estate, but I'm interning with the DA so that I can learn criminal law as well."
5. Don't care. Save it for a job interview.
6. Definitely don't care. Forced. Too personal.

I'm not trying to be a hater, so I'll say what you CAN talk about: How school is going and what subjects you like (if you think the listener seems interested in law school talk; I usually am not but will humor it, make conversation, and recognize it as fair game). What areas of law you find interesting. Why you're interning with the DA and what you've learned. Where you grew up and why you like the area, sans any information that would be impermissible for me to ask in an interview. Questions you have for me as a practicing attorney or what I did to prepare to practice in the area. Questions about the court proceeding we just watched together. Your observations or opinions about what it's like practicing in the area. Your concerns and opinions about the local legal market.

It's truly remarkable how much this game is like dating. If you come off like a clinger in one minute, then you're not going to get a second date.

TL;DR: A conversation is not the right place to cite your resume. It is the time to talk about interests, observations, experiences, and concerns. It's a good time to ask questions and make small talk (or substantive legal talk) about what's going on around you. And don't be weird.

Sorry, TLS, just frustrated that we haven't been able to find decent, non-weird law students to hire the past few years.

Anonymous User wrote: I'm sure this woman's parents are exceedingly proud of her.

It's truly remarkable how much this game is like dating. If you come off like a clinger in one minute, then you're not going to get a second date.

And don't be weird.

Sorry, TLS, just frustrated that we haven't been able to find decent, non-weird law students to hire the past few years.

More information please, what did she say?

True.

Double true.

Did it use to be easier to "find decent, non-weird law students to hire"? Why do you think this has changed?

(Background stuff that will be relevant later: I'm a practicing attorney in a small market. My firm is the proverbial big fish in a small pond in that other attorneys in the area tend to know us and we have a good reputation a.k.a. make the most money. I also have done OCI interviews twice.)

none of this information became relevant

Anonymous User wrote:More information please, what did she say?

Eh, just her general demeanor and her notion that it is appropriate to vomit a list of accomplishments to someone you just met. The whole thing came across as equal parts insecure and insulated, like she has close friends or family willing to consistently gush to her, or tolerate her gushing. I just figured taking the license to describe her that way in writing might make sense to some readers.[/quote]

Did it use to be easier to "find decent, non-weird law students to hire"? Why do you think this has changed?

Yes, I think it used to be easier. I wish I knew why. The difficulty roughly corresponds to the spike in tuition in the ... mid 2000's or so? Given the cost of law school, I wonder whether the candidates we would previously hire are now dead set on jobs that pay more to start? In theory, that means we could get these people on the secondary market, but in reality, we aren't interested in the vast majority of people after they spend 2-3 years in biglaw (for a lot of reasons I won't get into right here, people can ask if they want to know. Suffice it to say we get a lot of those inquiries, and the last lateral biglaw hire ended very poorly). So in reality, we're just kind of screwed.

It seems two-thirds of the people we interview at OCI are non-starters. Strange people with strange paths to law school and personalities that wouldn't fly at all here.

For decades, we managed to find law students from good schools with local connections and a willingness to work here and a passable personality. Part of what hurts us, I think, is the narrative that "general practice is dead" and maybe too much emphasis on the bimodal salary distribution, with an implication that the legal market has "haves" (biglaw) and "have nots" (almost everyone else). While generally true, there are exceptions for well-established firms in smaller markets. Joining my firm is definitely a risk (e.g. not liking it, closing door to biglaw, not making partner / lots of money, etc.), and I just think the factors now suggest foregoing that risk to most students. I really don't know.

killyourself wrote:

(Background stuff that will be relevant later: I'm a practicing attorney in a small market. My firm is the proverbial big fish in a small pond in that other attorneys in the area tend to know us and we have a good reputation a.k.a. make the most money. I also have done OCI interviews twice.)

none of this information became relevant

OP here. Only to a careful reader. The student, who lives in the area, was very likely aware of our firm's name, but she initially didn't link me to my firm. At the moment the Asst. DA linked me to my firm name, she went into "networking mode" and shit got weird. Get it? The OCI interview piece is relevant because it underlies my lamentation that we can't find good people as well as hopefully provides some credibility regarding strange student behaviors and why they are unhelpful. Glad I could help.

Anonymous User wrote:

killyourself wrote:

(Background stuff that will be relevant later: I'm a practicing attorney in a small market. My firm is the proverbial big fish in a small pond in that other attorneys in the area tend to know us and we have a good reputation a.k.a. make the most money. I also have done OCI interviews twice.)

none of this information became relevant

OP here. Only to a careful reader. The student, who lives in the area, was very likely aware of our firm's name, but she initially didn't link me to my firm. At the moment the Asst. DA linked me to my firm name, she went into "networking mode" and shit got weird. Get it? The OCI interview piece is relevant because it underlies my lamentation that we can't find good people as well as hopefully provides some credibility regarding strange student behaviors and why they are unhelpful. Glad I could help.

I would never have made that connection but I guess I get it now. Isn't part of the problem though that small firms can be a huge gamble? Like if a student is choosing between big law or your firm, regardless of what their debt situation is or salary expectations are, they are probably more likely to end 2L summer with a job offer if they are at a larger employer than with a small firm that might be more likely to not need or not be able to hire a new associate.

Anonymous User wrote:

killyourself wrote:

(Background stuff that will be relevant later: I'm a practicing attorney in a small market. My firm is the proverbial big fish in a small pond in that other attorneys in the area tend to know us and we have a good reputation a.k.a. make the most money. I also have done OCI interviews twice.)

none of this information became relevant

OP here. Only to a careful reader. The student, who lives in the area, was very likely aware of our firm's name, but she initially didn't link me to my firm. At the moment the Asst. DA linked me to my firm name, she went into "networking mode" and shit got weird. Get it? The OCI interview piece is relevant because it underlies my lamentation that we can't find good people. Glad I could help.

yea, not really. you wrote a 500 word essay with a ridiculous parenthetical prelude about being a "big fish" that amounted to "I was introduced to a law student as a partner at a local law firm. The law student told me about her career interests and background. She talked too fast."

what is it with boomers and their inability to see irony

I think the simple lesson here is that elevator pitches are stupid and people need to learn how to not be socially awkward. It's not hard at all to have a conversation with someone.

killyourself wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

killyourself wrote:

(Background stuff that will be relevant later: I'm a practicing attorney in a small market. My firm is the proverbial big fish in a small pond in that other attorneys in the area tend to know us and we have a good reputation a.k.a. make the most money. I also have done OCI interviews twice.)

none of this information became relevant

OP here. Only to a careful reader. The student, who lives in the area, was very likely aware of our firm's name, but she initially didn't link me to my firm. At the moment the Asst. DA linked me to my firm name, she went into "networking mode" and shit got weird. Get it? The OCI interview piece is relevant because it underlies my lamentation that we can't find good people. Glad I could help.

yea, not really. you wrote a 500 word essay with a ridiculous parenthetical prelude about being a "big fish" that amounted to "I was introduced to a law student as a partner at a local law firm. The law student told me about her career interests and background. She talked too fast."

what is it with boomers and their inability to see irony

She didn't just mention her career interests. She threw out her resume at him in an obvious surge of desperation.

She should have just used it as chance to network and find out about his career and ask if he had any advice.
There are a million ways to handle this. Actually, she should have been doing that on her own no matter what firm the guy is from. She is in a good spot to meet local attorneys and ask them about their careers and practice.

this person is definitely an awkward law student but this thread is still weird

killyourself wrote:yea, not really. you wrote a 500 word essay with a ridiculous parenthetical prelude about being a "big fish" that amounted to "I was introduced to a law student as a partner at a local law firm. The law student told me about her career interests and background. She talked too fast."

what is it with boomers and their inability to see irony

OP here. What is it with millenials and their inability to read anything longer than 140 characters without expecting an apology from the writer? What is it with millenials and their inability to understand that a writer has no obligation to make a post applicable to every reader? What is it with millenials and their unwillingness to pay attention to detail. (Seriously: your reductionist summary was that she talked about her interests and her background [too much], when in fact my advice was that she should have talked about those things more.)

In other words: "don't be awkward" is only useful to people who already know what it means to be awkward and thus avoid it, e.g. nobody. I provided a story, just one story, that takes about two minutes to read. If it's useful to someone who doesn't quite understand why it was awkward, then great. If it's worthless to you, then fine, why not just move along? I don't owe you any entertainment value or concision or insight or whatever it is you think you are owed.

It sounds like you need to pay more to attract the kind of associates that you want to hire.

OP, when did you serve? Just curious

landshoes wrote:It sounds like you need to pay more to attract the kind of associates that you want to hire.

small pond to 190!

Anonymous User wrote:

killyourself wrote:yea, not really. you wrote a 500 word essay with a ridiculous parenthetical prelude about being a "big fish" that amounted to "I was introduced to a law student as a partner at a local law firm. The law student told me about her career interests and background. She talked too fast."

what is it with boomers and their inability to see irony

OP here. What is it with millenials and their inability to read anything longer than 140 characters without expecting an apology from the writer? What is it with millenials and their inability to understand that a writer has no obligation to make a post applicable to every reader? What is it with millenials and their unwillingness to pay attention to detail. (Seriously: your reductionist summary was that she talked about her interests and her background [too much], when in fact my advice was that she should have talked about those things more.)

In other words: "don't be awkward" is only useful to people who already know what it means to be awkward and thus avoid it, e.g. nobody. I provided a story, just one story, that takes about two minutes to read. If it's useful to someone who doesn't quite understand why it was awkward, then great. If it's worthless to you, then fine, why not just move along? I don't owe you any entertainment value or concision or insight or whatever it is you think you are owed.

i don't know, i'm not a millennial. way to jump right to the entitlement shtick though. totally unexpected.

And I'm not a boomer. It was you who jumped right to a schtick, and it is now you who doesn't understand the meaning of irony.

I hate networking.

TBF, OP preemptively called it a shitpost.

TheSpanishMain wrote:OP, when did you serve? Just curious

I want to stay anon, but I served four years somewhere between 1996 - 2005.

landshoes wrote:It sounds like you need to pay more to attract the kind of associates that you want to hire.

Yeah, but I don't know if that's feasible. We could really take a bath on an associate if we decided to pay her a lot more in years one and two. The law schools and fed gov have really created a shit sandwich for us with the law school tuition/debt situation.

I totally understand that it's biglaw or bust for many students. Just wish that weren't the case. Bad policy has basically created a monopsony on behalf of collective biglaw.

Fuck. I've found myself in this person's shoes. There are like 2 things on my resume that are sorta impressive (fed coa clerkship and decent vault firm). But I went to a kinda shitty law school (on full scholarship and graduating toward the top of my class). I've been kindof insecure about the shitty school thing and I've found myself steering conversations to the good things after the shitty school comes up. It never works and I just go home and feel like a stupid insecure idiot. So my derail is to tell everyone that this thread made my stomach hurt a little.

Anonymous User wrote:Fuck. I've found myself in this person's shoes. There are like 2 things on my resume that are sorta impressive (fed coa clerkship and decent vault firm). But I went to a kinda shitty law school (on full scholarship and graduating toward the top of my class). I've been kindof insecure about the shitty school thing and I've found myself steering conversations to the good things after the shitty school comes up. It never works and I just go home and feel like a stupid insecure idiot. So my derail is to tell everyone that this thread made my stomach hurt a little.

Don't be. It is entirely possible that this person was trying to share their law school experience because that was the only way she knew how to relate to someone who had gone to law school too.

Anonymous User wrote:Fuck. I've found myself in this person's shoes. There are like 2 things on my resume that are sorta impressive (fed coa clerkship and decent vault firm). But I went to a kinda shitty law school (on full scholarship and graduating toward the top of my class). I've been kindof insecure about the shitty school thing and I've found myself steering conversations to the good things after the shitty school comes up. It never works and I just go home and feel like a stupid insecure idiot. So my derail is to tell everyone that this thread made my stomach hurt a little.

Yeah, it's tough because in reality every single conversation is high stakes. But god forbid you act like it's high stakes because that might make someone uncomfortable.

Everything about needing money is terrible.

Anonymous User wrote:Fuck. I've found myself in this person's shoes. There are like 2 things on my resume that are sorta impressive (fed coa clerkship and decent vault firm). But I went to a kinda shitty law school (on full scholarship and graduating toward the top of my class). I've been kindof insecure about the shitty school thing and I've found myself steering conversations to the good things after the shitty school comes up. It never works and I just go home and feel like a stupid insecure idiot. So my derail is to tell everyone that this thread made my stomach hurt a little.

OP here. You're not derailing. And you feeling like that sucks. Thanks for the reminder that we're dealing with real people here. Maybe that was this woman's problem too: she isn't going to a great law school, and maybe she was just eager to fill in a perceived gap with other accomplishments. I think you can make a mention of one thing from that list and have it not seem awkward, but the entire stream of stuff together was just too much. Hopefully you can just be confident in what you have to offer and have that shine through. It's too late to change your law school. Best of luck.

Anonymous User wrote:(Background stuff that will be relevant later: I'm a practicing attorney in a small market. My firm is the proverbial big fish in a small pond in that other attorneys in the area tend to know us and we have a good reputation a.k.a. make the most money. I also have done OCI interviews twice.)

I was at court today, where I met a 2L who is interning with the DA's office on a couple days out of the week when she apparently doesn't have class.

We chatted briefly. At first, she was charmingly awkward in an expected way. I'm sure this woman's parents are exceedingly proud of her. Then at some point, the Asst. DA formally introduced us and mentioned that I am a partner at XYZ firm. Within the next 45 seconds, the student managed to mention the following information:

1. She is on scholarship
2. She is a veteran, so she knows how to conduct herself under pressure and thus in a courtroom.
3. She wants to work in the area and is married with kids
4. She wants to do "real estate and transaction work" moreso than criminal law
5. She's got another internship lined up in the fall
6. She's going to graduate with no student loan debt b/c scholarship

I would say that the issues with her approach are obvious, but apparently not. In case there is another person like her reading this, let me do you a favor and point out the problems.

1. Save scholarships for your resume or if they directly arise in conversation. Hint: they won't directly arise in conversation.
2. Don't say that shit. Problem is, I'm a veteran too and know plenty of veterans who don't belong anywhere near a courtroom.
3. Ok, the first half of this is cool ... the family stuff is a little TMI for an elevator pitch. Save this one for lunch.
4. You're not even a lawyer yet. Unless you're talking to a biglaw partner, you probably don't get to pick what you do as an associate. Maybe go with, "Long-term, I would like to develop a transactional practice focused on real estate, but I'm interning with the DA so that I can learn criminal law as well."
5. Don't care. Save it for a job interview.
6. Definitely don't care. Forced. Too personal.

I'm not trying to be a hater, so I'll say what you CAN talk about: How school is going and what subjects you like (if you think the listener seems interested in law school talk; I usually am not but will humor it, make conversation, and recognize it as fair game). What areas of law you find interesting. Why you're interning with the DA and what you've learned. Where you grew up and why you like the area, sans any information that would be impermissible for me to ask in an interview. Questions you have for me as a practicing attorney or what I did to prepare to practice in the area. Questions about the court proceeding we just watched together. Your observations or opinions about what it's like practicing in the area. Your concerns and opinions about the local legal market.

It's truly remarkable how much this game is like dating. If you come off like a clinger in one minute, then you're not going to get a second date.

TL;DR: A conversation is not the right place to cite your resume. It is the time to talk about interests, observations, experiences, and concerns. It's a good time to ask questions and make small talk (or substantive legal talk) about what's going on around you. And don't be weird.

Sorry, TLS, just frustrated that we haven't been able to find decent, non-weird law students to hire the past few years.

Spent a year at TTT before transferring. Career services LOVED to teach the elevator speech as gospel. We got a card that said nearly verbatim 1. What have you done, 2. What do you want to do, 3. Stress ties to the area.

It made many people, likely myself included, act like idiots at networking events and dinners.

I'll reiterate, an issue above is that these conversations are usually high stakes b/c of the lack of those jobs.