Being let go from BigLaw twice! What to do? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I really would like some advice on BigLaw and being let go since this is not working out for my husband since he graduated from law school.

He has switched out of Big Law already twice now each after a little over a year because he was criticized for not being on par with the technical skills. I find it hard to believe and don't understand that is that the norm within law firms that there is literally zero tolerance and if you aren't up to par you get fired without being coached re what to do differently? I also find it hard to believe he is doing such a poor job, given the enormous hours he works (weekends and nights), how dedicated he is and given the fact that overall hes a smart guy that graduated from a top law school with great gpa. Is there something else going on? He isn't the most politically savy person and I wonder how much that comes into play at these law firms. It seems like every time there is an issue, it is with one critical partner and that ends up being the end for him. He trusts that these places are transparent and that the feedback he gets is honest but I (albeit am not within the field of law) don't completely trust this at all. Anybody have any insight on what may be going on? What to do and how to improve? At this point, I also fear given the number of switches and the state of the economy he will have a hard time getting another job (people may wonder about all the switches).

Any help or insight would be immensely appreciated. Thanks!

[zot1]

Any chance he's not being forthcoming with you as to how/what he does at work?

[totesTheGoat]

I think the OP begs for more questions than answers.

If somebody gets canned that quickly from biglaw, it can be indicative of scandal. The idea that they're going to fire a first year for being not up to par technically would only happen if he was writing work product with a crayon or something.

What type of law does he practice?

[SFSpartan]

Trusting that employers are transparent is a big mistake. I has been my experience that lawyers are fairly passive-aggressive people, and there may be certain feedback that he isn't picking up on because he isn't reading the subtext of the feedback he is being given.

Without more information, nobody is going to be able to tell you what the issue is or how to fix it. But attention to detail is huge in this profession. If attention to detail is the problem, then your husband needs to slow down when he is drafting documents and make sure he really understands what his assignment is and how that fits into the deal big picture (assuming he is a corporate associate).

Also, zot's thing is TCR. He may, for personal reasons/ego (or because he doesn't want you to worry) be telling you that he is doing better than he actually is.

[Tls2016]

If an important partner doesn't like you there isn't much you can do to save yourself.

It's possible to be a good student and not be able to hack biglaw. If you aren't organized or detail oriented or you can't function on little sleep, you can fail in biglaw. Law school does almost nothing to prepare you for practice.

Biglaw HR isn't like a company that counsels people on how to improve. You get more immediate feedback about your errors. Or maybe you get no feedback but you get taken off a deal. There is little to no substantive training.

There are usually a couple of 1st years that don't work out.

[Tls2016]

I think the OP begs for more questions than answers.

If somebody gets canned that quickly from biglaw, it can be indicative of scandal. The idea that they're going to fire a first year for being not up to par technically would only happen if he was writing work product with a crayon or something.

What type of law does he practice?

It sounds like he was let go after a year at each firm. Maybe the year end review?

[Anonymous User]

No he graduated from law school several years ago (wasn't let go as a first year) - seems like he was doing ok as a first year and really problems started later.

He is very hard working and was working crazy hours (functions okay on little sleep). But the question is how do people really improve. He was slammed for certain "technical mistakes" in his drafting and the partner didn't feel like he was detailed enough or paying attention to the right things. But he also didn't think he deserved to be let go based on those little feedbacks. I don't know if that is common or perhaps he is minimizing the level of mistakes and doesn't understand that they truly are that picky. Or if it is a political situation where someone just wants to give him a hard time. I really have no idea. If it is the technical stuff, how hard is it really to improve and to get on par?

He had his review and they didn't give him good ratings (but he worked very heavily with one partner) and apparently you can't see the breakdown of reviews from different partners (that sounds so shady to me!). And he did get excellent reviews from clients and other partners were satisfied with his work (or at least said they were). But it seems like one of the main partners he worked with (both this time and last) had problems. Is this a common scenerior where people aren't given a chance like this?

[SFSpartan]

He was slammed for certain "technical mistakes" in his drafting and the partner didn't feel like he was detailed enough or paying attention to the right things.

This, particularly the latter part, is serious feedback and should be taken seriously. It sounds like the problem is (i) he made some detail mistakes, and (ii) he didn't take feedback about them seriously enough.

He could have just been unlucky, and worked with a couple partners that completely wrote him off for screwing up once. That isn't uncommon, though most of the partners I've worked with personally won't throw someone under the bus for screwing up once. It's when it becomes a pattern that it becomes a problem. Given that he made it through the first year, it seems like he developed a pattern of turning in bad work and didn't proactively address fast enough.

But he also didn't think he deserved to be let go based on those little feedbacks. I don't know if that is common or perhaps he is minimizing the level of mistakes and doesn't understand that they truly are that picky.

What your husband thinks he deserves to be let go for doesn't matter. What does matter is what the partners expect. If they, like most transactional attorneys, are super anal about details, then he's sort of stuck kowtowing to what they want.

If it is the technical stuff, how hard is it really to improve and to get on par?

It's going to be hard for most of us to answer this, since we don't know what the mistakes are. I found myself making certain mistakes consistently, so I created a checklist of things to check before I send out work. That has dramatically cut my error rate. Other than "be more careful", I don't know that there's much TLS can do to help on this point.

Is this a common scenerior where people aren't given a chance like this?

Biglaw (and midlaw as well) can be really sink or swim. Law firms often provide laughably little substantive training, so it's really up to your husband to take charge of his career development.

[Tls2016]

So if he is a mid level or senior associate he shouldn't be getting any comments from partners on missing details. There aren't "technical"errors, there are just errors.

I'm sorry you and your husband are dealing with this. It is almost impossible to figure out what exactly he was doing wrong. I will confirm that it sounds plausible.

[JusticeJackson]

.

[rpupkin]

I don't know what is going on with your husband specifically, but mid-level and senior associates get pushed out of law firms all the time. A typical big law office has a first-year associate class of about 40 attorneys. Maybe one or two of those will make partner after 7-10 years. So what happens to the other 38? Some leave voluntarily, but many (most?) are encouraged to leave at some point. I assume your husband knows this by now. What's happening to him isn't unusual.

[20160810]

He's bad at this. It's a high stress job and you can't fuck up. It sounds like he fucks up a lot. Technical mistakes, whatever that means, are still mistakes.

If you think you aren't getting all the facts I recommend calling the managing partner of the office and asking for a copy of his performance reviews. They're usually happy to email PDFs.

[Desert Fox]

I don't know what is going on with your husband specifically, but mid-level and senior associates get pushed out of law firms all the time. A typical big law office has a first-year associate class of about 40 attorneys. Maybe one or two of those will make partner after 7-10 years. So what happens to the other 38? Some leave voluntarily, but many (most?) are encouraged to leave at some point. I assume your husband knows this by now. What's happening to him isn't unusual.

Yea the fact that this guy is a midlevel or even senior totally changes how bad this is. Laterals aren't given the same leeway new associates are. If they don't like you, you can get written off very quickly.

Sometimes the laterals are really just hired to plug a gap in coverage or are hired optimistically and the work load isn't there.

[ballouttacontrol]

how about just asking your fucking husband?

he has more experience than 95% of ppl on this board. I hope he sees this and goes apeshit on ur psycho ass

[cron1834]

how about just asking your fucking husband?

he has more experience than 95% of ppl on this board. I hope he sees this and goes apeshit on ur psycho ass

Undoubtedly he'd misread something tho.

[Anonymous User]

how about just asking your fucking husband?

he has more experience than 95% of ppl on this board. I hope he sees this and goes apeshit on ur psycho ass

Undoubtedly he'd misread something tho.

Oh wow

[Tls2016]

How is this helpful? You are just being incredibly offensive.

She appears to not believe her husband or the reality of biglaw. I've known two people who were let go and the spouse remained in denial and not understanding how they could be fired because they went to a good school, had good grades and they worked long hours. They ended up getting divorced. Denial of the situation didn't help anyone.

Edit: deleted quote .

[BaiAilian2013]

how about just asking your fucking husband?

he has more experience than 95% of ppl on this board. I hope he sees this and goes apeshit on ur psycho ass

It sounds like they have talked about it (otherwise how would OP know all this stuff) and OP just isn't understanding the situation from what the husband is reporting - it's not adding up to OP.

I will agree that attention to detail is indeed a major substantive issue in biglaw, but the other possibility (not that they're mutually exclusive) is that your husband comes off as a weird guy and people don't like him. I have seen someone at my firm who was maybe not neurotypical become quite unpopular and lateral out early. I don't know if this person was pushed out, but from the way people talk about the person now, I do know nobody would have been like oh no, don't leave (which does happen, but maybe only to more senior people, I dunno). This person did all sorts of weird shit, like not one epic event but just on a day to day basis, and had such an oblivious manner that they were not super pleasant to conversate with. Would the person's (hypothetical) spouse know or see this? I don't know.

I guess another less likely possibility is, if you happen to be a same-sex couple, maybe he's been at firms with a bunch of conservative dickbags. Unlikely in most places where biglaw exists, though.

[kellyfrost]

how about just asking your fucking husband?

he has more experience than 95% of ppl on this board. I hope he sees this and goes apeshit on ur psycho ass

Amen!! I was thinking the same thing the entire time I was reading this thread.

I'm going to also speculate there might be something going on in this guy's personal and professional life that others know of but he is trying to keep from his wife.

[06102016]

..

[Tls2016]

Amen!! I was thinking the same thing the entire time I was reading this thread.

I'm going to also speculate there might be something going on in this guy's personal and professional life that others know of but he is trying to keep from his wife.

How long have you worked in biglaw? People get fired and pushed out all the time. His story is very plausible.

[kellyfrost]

Amen!! I was thinking the same thing the entire time I was reading this thread.

I'm going to also speculate there might be something going on in this guy's personal and professional life that others know of but he is trying to keep from his wife.

How long have you worked in biglaw? People get fired and pushed out all the time. His story is very plausible.

Oh, good. I'm glad it is plausible. I was worried that it wasn't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[84651846190]

The fact that he got good grades and went to a good school doesn't really matter.

What people fail to realize is that there are too many lawyers at every level of the legal profession. Whether you're trying to become an Article III judge or just trying to break into shitlaw, there are huge numbers of legal lemmings competing with you at every turn. There are too many biglaw associates, too many biglaw partners, too many of counsel, etc. This is why no one has job security, everyone fights like hell to keep their jobs (by working insane hours, obsessing over making every little thing "perfect" in their work product, backbiting about coworkers to make themselves look relatively better, etc.), even in biglaw. The insecurity and stress will never go away. You never really "make it" in law. It's just one continuous, hypercompetitive shitshow until you die.

Enjoy.

[20160810]

how about just asking your fucking husband?

he has more experience than 95% of ppl on this board. I hope he sees this and goes apeshit on ur psycho ass

B&

He's kinda right tho. She doesn't believe her husband and doesn't understand why he keeps getting pushed out even though that's literally the norm in this industry. So she asks TLS? This sounds bonkers.

[84651846190]

If you want an easier lifestyle, consider tech: https://www.roberthalf.com/sites/defaul ... _guide.pdf

People with Bachelors-only credentials are easily pulling in 100k+ and working chill hours. LOL @ JD morons. WTF were we thinking?