Top Law Schools

After reading TLS, I was convinced law school would be hell, and that I could expect to be miserable and depressed. I enrolled anyway (because apparently I'm irrational), and found myself really enjoying it. Sure, it's tough, but I'm far from miserable- just stressed.

Are people who frequent TLS just predisposed to pessimism? Or is it kind of a pack mentality thing?

People complain just as much about Biglaw conditions as they do about law school. Does that mean that Biglaw is not as bad as TLS makes it out to be?

Anyone who enjoyed law school but hated Biglaw care to chime in?

I don't think I ever complained about law school except for the cost...but I'll respond.

Law school was great - I actually really liked it. Barely did any work, studied in the last couple of weeks leading to exams, and graduated with honors from a T-14.

Biglaw on the other hand is like 100000000000000000 times more work and much more boring/awful/killself worthy. I would maybe do law school again (if free anyway) but I wouldn't do biglaw if I had a redo in life.

law school was the dream

gov't handing me money and didn't have to do much of anything

How far into law school are you OP?

In general, I think people who are attracted to becoming a lawyer tend to be pessimistic. Look up all the articles on lawyers and stress/substance abuse/depression/suicide/etc. Of course these issues exist in other professions, but often lawyers are significantly worse. Either the profession is inherently worse than other professions (which I don't think is all that true and even if true, not worse enough to create the disparities seen in the data) or people who become lawyers tend to be at least somewhat different than people who work other jobs (which I think is the more likely culprit). That means that just because the average experience is X does not mean that you will have that same experience as well.

That said, I think it's safer to assume that biglaw will not be all that enjoyable. That's the way that many people find it and acting as if it will be okay for you is a much riskier proposition.

bk1 wrote:That said, I think it's safer to assume that biglaw will not be all that enjoyable. That's the way that many people find it and acting as if it will be okay for you is a much riskier proposition.

Agree. Even with all of TLS' warnings about what practice would be like, I was unable to truly know what it is like until I started practicing. Sure, I generally enjoy my job (and am hella fortunate) and the work I do but it requires a lot of time and personal sacrifice.

everybody bitches about their jobs. it's a phenomenon that is hardly limited to legal practice

I loved law school, including 1L. I strongly dislike biglaw because it's incredibly boring and stressful at the same time, and seriously the money is not that good (if you take on much debt you're going to toil under greedy partners just to get to $0 net worth). Most of my peers agree, but yes a handful find interest in the work. Those people seem to be more common in litigation, but their exit options are considerably worse. You can keep telling yourself that were all just whiners here, but I was naive too not long ago. In all likelihood you're not different.

Anonymous User wrote:I loved law school, including 1L. I strongly dislike biglaw because it's incredibly boring and stressful at the same time, and seriously the money is not that good (if you take on much debt you're going to toil under greedy partners just to get to $0 net worth). Most of my peers agree, but yes a handful find interest in the work. Those people seem to be more common in litigation, but their exit options are considerably worse. You can keep telling yourself that were all just whiners here, but I was naive too not long ago. In all likelihood you're not different.

Yeah, agree litigation seems better (as long as you're not stuck in doc review or discovery) but there are like no exit ops. Then again if you don't like poring over contracts all day, going in house isn't a great exit op either.

to answer op's original question, re: are tlsers whiney?, the answer is yes to a certain extent but, as has been discussed is numerous previous threads, there are a lot of different reasons why one would hate biglaw and one of them is bound to apply to you

Capitol_Idea wrote:How far into law school are you OP?

1L, 2nd semester.



So, it seems the consensus is that Biglaw litigators are slightly more satisfied than those doing transactional...how about Midlaw, PI, Gov't?

I hear good things about DOJ Honors, but what's the consensus generally for the other options?

There are people who disliked law school but like practice. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=259351

Up to the individual.

Niche forums are kind of inherently whiney. They serve as places to vent a lot of the time. Go to a forum that revolves around a video game and you'll find people who play the game a lot whining about things they don't like. A sports team forum will have a lot of whining about the team unless that team is objectively doing extremely well (Golden State Warriors forums are probably pretty chill right now). TLS isn't a place where people are going to post "I pulled a 3.9 GPA and got offered a premiere clerkship!!!" You can text your friends and make your old high school classmates feel crappy about themselves on Facebook if you want to broadcast that.

As for the Big Law stuff, I dunno. It spooks the hell out of me as a 0L though. I'm almost completely turned off to Big Law despite having no experience with it.

ticklemesilly wrote:After reading TLS, I was convinced law school would be hell, and that I could expect to be miserable and depressed. I enrolled anyway (because apparently I'm irrational), and found myself really enjoying it. Sure, it's tough, but I'm far from miserable- just stressed.

Are people who frequent TLS just predisposed to pessimism? Or is it kind of a pack mentality thing?

People complain just as much about Biglaw conditions as they do about law school. Does that mean that Biglaw is not as bad as TLS makes it out to be?

Anyone who enjoyed law school but hated Biglaw care to chime in?

My guess is this has a lot to do with one's performance and the employment prospects attached to that performance. Law school is awesome if you're doing well, and it's miserable if you're not doing well and looking at graduating unemployed or otherwise into poverty. Obviously, there are exceptions, but I think that is most of it.

Non tlsers too. You weren't alive the last time attorney wasn't ranked the worst profession in the U.S.

I've been telling people for years that I went to law school for a 3 year vacation because it's true. If you think law school is a really easy time where you rarely have to put in much effort, you're right. The real world, unfortunately, requires you to wake up in the morning.

Government is generally better than biglaw in regards to work-life balance, but I think it is a mixed batch.

I'm in federal government non-DOJ and love it. The pay is great, my boss is nice, and the work is challenging. Really couldn't ask for more (except always more money).

Not everyone in federal government enjoys themselves. I guess if you work for an agency like SSA, the work is mind-numbing and you don't get paid very. There are also reports that some agencies in DC start you at GS9 and that's honestly terrible.

Then you got state and local government. DAs do not work 40 hours per week all the time. In fact, when there are big trials, they work late during the week and stay the weekend AND they still make significantly less money than me or someone in mid law.

Also, local government in general means a lot less money. I remember seeing a posting in Northern California for a state job for 35k/year. It was depressing.

The reason why I brought up money a lot is because if there's something I've learned in life is that no matter how great your job is, if you are in fact struggling to make ends meet, then you won't be very happy. And trust me, 35k/year in northern Cali is NOT a livable salary.

So my long story short answer is that happiness in government varies because the work and pay varies depending on the level and agency.

I feel like I'm missing something massive in these threads.

So many are big law or bust, but common knowledge is that big law is a miserable shit show. If it's miserable, why the fuck do people want to do it so badly? I've been afraid that maybe I shouldn't go to law school because so many TLSers essentially say that unless you can get a full scholarship to CCN or above, it's not worth it, most lawyers hate their lives, etc.etc. but I myself love the work I've done at firms (not biglaw) and that's why I'm going to law school - to do the work that I enjoy. Apparently that's...not...? why a ton of people here are going?

For the same reasons you are thinking of going-"if it's so bad, why do people still do it? I'm gonna go do it."

BigLaw sounds nice to outsiders: make 160k/year for the first year. Then eventually get to 300k/year, etc. Wow that's a lot of money to wear a suit and walk around with a caramel macchiato.

But what do you have to do to get that nice big paycheck? A lot of mind-numbing work. In addition to that, you're on call at most firms and working ridiculous hours. Then you're also being yelled at and treated poorly sometimes even for errors outside of your control. And that's another thing, in BigLaw, you will finally see how little you're worth.

Then you start thinking... Is 160k worth this shit? Probably no. Specially since you're depressed and all at this point. And you go and write on TLS about how horrible it is. Specially since you can't leave because you haven't paid your student loans yet.

And then there's a special snowflake reading your post and thinking. It can't be so bad. That dude is probably whiny. I bet if I did it, I wouldn't mind the hours so much, or the work, or the treatment, everything would work alright for me because it is me and I'm so fucking special.

It's a vicious cycle. However, since you're in it already, enjoy BigLaw! Don't forget to come back and tell us how it's going a year in.

P.S. Whatever you do as an intern or law clerk is not the same as what your life will be like as an associate.

Anonymous User wrote:I feel like I'm missing something massive in these threads.

So many are big law or bust, but common knowledge is that big law is a miserable shit show. If it's miserable, why the fuck do people want to do it so badly? I've been afraid that maybe I shouldn't go to law school because so many TLSers essentially say that unless you can get a full scholarship to CCN or above, it's not worth it, most lawyers hate their lives, etc.etc. but I myself love the work I've done at firms (not biglaw) and that's why I'm going to law school - to do the work that I enjoy. Apparently that's...not...? why a ton of people here are going?

The vast majority of 0Ls who post here go to law school because they see the biglaw salary and that's all they care about, they are prestige obsessed and think law is prestigious, and they can't think of anything else to do.

OP has done one semester of law school and starts wondering if posters with years of experience in biglaw are just whiners.
I don't agree with your characterization of the CCN at full ride summary at all but I'm not going to go through that again.

Anonymous User wrote:I feel like I'm missing something massive in these threads.

So many are big law or bust, but common knowledge is that big law is a miserable shit show. If it's miserable, why the fuck do people want to do it so badly? I've been afraid that maybe I shouldn't go to law school because so many TLSers essentially say that unless you can get a full scholarship to CCN or above, it's not worth it, most lawyers hate their lives, etc.etc. but I myself love the work I've done at firms (not biglaw) and that's why I'm going to law school - to do the work that I enjoy. Apparently that's...not...? why a ton of people here are going?

you can lock down biglaw early in lawschool and then coast to graduation secure in the knowledge you have a guaranteed gig. whereas, most other jobs, to include government, you won't know until closer to graduation, post-graduation, or even post-bar. for the risk-averse, biglaw is the safest (albeit not ideal in all instances) bet.

zot1 wrote:For the same reasons you are thinking of going-"if it's so bad, why do people still do it? I'm gonna go do it."

BigLaw sounds nice to outsiders: make 160k/year for the first year. Then eventually get to 300k/year, etc. Wow that's a lot of money to wear a suit and walk around with a caramel macchiato.

But what do you have to do to get that nice big paycheck? A lot of mind-numbing work. In addition to that, you're on call at most firms and working ridiculous hours. Then you're also being yelled at and treated poorly sometimes even for errors outside of your control. And that's another thing, in BigLaw, you will finally see how little you're worth.

Then you start thinking... Is 160k worth this shit? Probably no. Specially since you're depressed and all at this point. And you go and write on TLS about how horrible it is. Specially since you can't leave because you haven't paid your student loans yet.

And then there's a special snowflake reading your post and thinking. It can't be so bad. That dude is probably whiny. I bet if I did it, I wouldn't mind the hours so much, or the work, or the treatment, everything would work alright for me because it is me and I'm so fucking special.

It's a vicious cycle. However, since you're in it already, enjoy BigLaw! Don't forget to come back and tell us how it's going a year in.

P.S. Whatever you do as an intern or law clerk is not the same as what your life will be like as an associate.

It's even worse because most of these people have never lived in a high cost of living place and have no clue what their life will be like in NYC biglaw, which is where most people end up.

My opinion has always been that there are other options for smart, ambitious people to have a good career and a great life without going deeply in debt and chaining themselves to a job that will take over their life.

I liked practicing in biglaw for a long time but I would never have borrowed 6 figures of student loans to go. My family would never have supported that decision either. That's just an absurd amount of money.

Anonymous User wrote:I feel like I'm missing something massive in these threads.

So many are big law or bust, but common knowledge is that big law is a miserable shit show. If it's miserable, why the fuck do people want to do it so badly? I've been afraid that maybe I shouldn't go to law school because so many TLSers essentially say that unless you can get a full scholarship to CCN or above, it's not worth it, most lawyers hate their lives, etc.etc. but I myself love the work I've done at firms (not biglaw) and that's why I'm going to law school - to do the work that I enjoy. Apparently that's...not...? why a ton of people here are going?

I know this has been discussed a lot elsewhere, but people also go to law school to get jobs they really want and biglaw is a step along the way. Like, they want to go to a tip top school because they believe the pedigree is necessary to get a fancy unicorn job, but take out a lot of loans to do so and start off in biglaw to pay off the loans (and/or get experience because the unicorn job doesn't hire entry level). Or they ultimately want an in-house job but need to put in some years in biglaw first. And along the lines of what grand inquisitor said, lots of people go to law school thinking they will do something other than biglaw, but then do biglaw because (especially at a lot of top schools) it's the path of least resistance. Even at my not-biglaw-competitive school, it was hard to swim upstream and make the choice to forego OCI. And then if you get the job it would be pretty hard to decide not to take that path after all. Etc.

(That is, aside from the facts that the salary looks amazing, especially if you've never worked full time, and a lot of TLSers/law students/human beings are desperate prestige whores.)

I have to say it was pretty hard to go through 3L still looking for work when most of my classmates were coasting after securing their BigLaw gigs. Devastating at times even.

oh lawd wrote:Niche forums are kind of inherently whiney. They serve as places to vent a lot of the time. Go to a forum that revolves around a video game and you'll find people who play the game a lot whining about things they don't like. A sports team forum will have a lot of whining about the team unless that team is objectively doing extremely well (Golden State Warriors forums are probably pretty chill right now). TLS isn't a place where people are going to post "I pulled a 3.9 GPA and got offered a premiere clerkship!!!" You can text your friends and make your old high school classmates feel crappy about themselves on Facebook if you want to broadcast that.

As for the Big Law stuff, I dunno. It spooks the hell out of me as a 0L though. I'm almost completely turned off to Big Law despite having no experience with it.

A difference is that these forums deal with major debt and professional school career choices and not just hobbies.