Has the culture of biglaw completely ruined your sense of self worth? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Constant nitpicking, never feeling like you're doing a good job, feeling like you have no value (particularly as a junior)?

[Anonymous User]

Junior corp associate biglaw. I can definitely relate. Have those feelings every day.

Trying to get better at not letting work define my self-worth but even getting a "good email" or "good work" makes me so happy. On the flip side, had an annual review that was almost entirely positive. Reviewers mentioned one project that they want to talk over after it is finished in order to help me improve. Of course I focus in on that "negative" aspect of the review and have almost entirely forgotten any positive thing they said.

[Anonymous User]

Junior corp associate biglaw. I can definitely relate. Have those feelings every day.

Trying to get better at not letting work define my self-worth but even getting a "good email" or "good work" makes me so happy. On the flip side, had an annual review that was almost entirely positive. Reviewers mentioned one project that they want to talk over after it is finished in order to help me improve. Of course I focus in on that "negative" aspect of the review and have almost entirely forgotten any positive thing they said.

Sounds like this is more of an issue of how you see yourself, even outside of your job.

[PeanutsNJam]

Sorry you're not perfect? Nobody is. If you want validation, go spend some of that $$$ you make. Tell people you went to [T14] while wearing a bespoke suit. Then go back home and watch Netflix because validation is flame.

You have a job. They're paying you to do work. "Good job" is the default; it's expected.

[TLSModBot]

If you went into law school with illusions of self-worth, you did it wrong.

[Desert Fox]

The problem is that some people have absurd expectations that even they can't meet (and they certainly couldn't have met when they first were starting out).

And that some people will literally write you off if you screw something up. They literally have zero tolerance.

Biglaw can really be a ONE | WRONG | MOVE situation.

[Good Guy Gaud]

The problem is that some people have absurd expectations that even they can't meet (and they certainly couldn't have met when they first were starting out).

And that some people will literally write you off if you screw something up. They literally have zero tolerance.

Biglaw can really be a ONE | WRONG | MOVE situation.

Yup

[Desert Fox]

And some psychopathic mid levels will throw you under the bus. Not just to save themselves from criticism, which they do, but sometimes just to show their own value. HEY I CAUGHT THIS JUNIORS MISTAKE!

It's sick.

Working with a team that has each others backs is 190k. Working with the average big law psycho is like 12dollars an hour no overtime.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think the "get over it" responses are a little unfair. People who do well enough to get to a T14 (especially if k-Jed) are inclined and conditioned to getting external validation - getting good grades, good test scores, and good jobs has been the measure of success so far, and those are things that require pleasing others, not yourself. It's hard to break away from that, and it's easy to focus on the negatives, especially if you don't get much positive feedback (and I know people criticize millennials for needing to be praised all the time but I don't think it's specific to that).

Unfortunately there's no magic bullet for getting past that - you just have to get over valuing yourself based on external validation. Sometimes it takes really failing at something to realize that failure isn't actually the end of the world, or realize that you can't control how other people feel about you and therefore you shouldn't base your self-worth on it. It's nicer if you can learn that without crashing and burning, of course, but sometimes you can't.

[Anonymous User]

And some psychopathic mid levels will throw you under the bus. Not just to save themselves from criticism, which they do, but sometimes just to show their own value. HEY I CAUGHT THIS JUNIORS MISTAKE!

It's sick.

Working with a team that has each others backs is 190k. Working with the average big law psycho is like 12dollars an hour no overtime.

Well, on the other hand, that's the nature of many professional settings, outside of law. I'd bet most professions have similar levels of psychopathy.

IOW, you gotta get over needing to be liked.

[zot1]

And some psychopathic mid levels will throw you under the bus. Not just to save themselves from criticism, which they do, but sometimes just to show their own value. HEY I CAUGHT THIS JUNIORS MISTAKE!

It's sick.

Working with a team that has each others backs is 190k. Working with the average big law psycho is like 12dollars an hour no overtime.

Well, on the other hand, that's the nature of many professional settings, outside of law. I'd bet most professions have similar levels of psychopathy.

IOW, you gotta get over needing to be liked.

I disagree. My boss and colleagues go out of their way to compliment my work. When I make mistakes, it's more like, hey I think you meant to say x here instead of y. Caveat: I work in government so without billables, no one is fighting for work... We have enough already.

[krads153]

When I was more junior, yes. Now, I just care less and get more annoyed....I think people's expectations are generally ridiculous and many people care about really stupid non-substantive stuff.

But yes, the one mess up and you're written off rule definitely applies in biglaw. I don't personally think the money is that great either, for NYC/SF/DC, etc., so I don't get why some people put up with associate salaries for years while taking this kind of brutality.

[Anonymous User]

This is a whiney statement but I just wish partners would ask me to do something or tell me if I am doing something wrong. Have this nagging feeling that I am messing up but no one is telling me

[Anonymous User]

This is a whiney statement but I just wish partners would ask me to do something or tell me if I am doing something wrong. Have this nagging feeling that I am messing up but no one is telling me

Thats totally valid. A partner of mine who was a real mentor once sat me down to say that he wanted me to take it to the next level, and he though I had potential to do more and to perform better. He said he only says that to the people he really likes because he genuinely cared about my development and didn't want me to fall through the cracks. He made clear that I hadn't screwed up anything and had done a perfectly adequate job. But he said people who are merely "pretty good" in biglaw fall through the cracks. It was so weird to get called in and lectured a bit, with the preface being that I had done a totally fine job, and hadn't screwed anything up.

He said many partners will never even bother discussing with you ways to improve or what you can do better. Instead, they will just accept adequate work and then boot you when you screw up. Thats why its so important to find a mentor who will be honest with you about strengths and weaknesses.

[nextstep2016]

Transactional third year here. No doubt big law is very stressful and certain things can get to you like getting blamed for mistakes that weren't your fault, being forced to take on more matters than you have time for, etc. As I always say, it's not the work itself that is the problem (at least for me - I actually like it)...it is everything else about the job that makes it suck.

Big law is a breeding ground for the type of thinking you're describing. Recently I had a great formal review, which made me feel better about myself than it should have, and then following that I made a couple small mistakes, which upset me more than they should have, and I was trying to explain to family and friends why it was a big deal and it boils down to the personalities of the senior people in big law. ...they aren't like preschool teachers who have the type of personality to forgive a mistake. Instead one mistake will immediately make them think you're less than competent regardless of how much they trusted you before. The truth is that I am the same way to the juniors on my deals....one or two mistakes (at least on stuff they should know or be able to handle) can quickly drop my opinion of them. Among my associate class 60% were INTJ (including me) on the myers briggs personality test which basically means uptight, neurotic, control freak.

All that being said I am going to gently say that if you are basing your self worth that much on your job performance, I think that is an issue with you more than with big law. I get it...as I just admitted above, I definitely also define myself too much by doing a good job at work or conversely get overly upset by small mistakes, but you have to try to fight it. I think the people who have a more balanced approach and can let things roll of their backs (without being careless...they put in the effort and then let go of the result) are more likely to make it to the senior ranks. The best advice I can give for how to do that is to have something outside of big law that is important to you and from which you can draw meaning and purpose, which I know is really hard with how much time big law takes up. A relationship, even a dog (I swear my dog helps a lot).

Also get literal distance between you and the office. Get to the office late (I usually arrive at 1030 or sometimes later and it hasn't negatively affected me yet) and leave early when you can. Make sure you use all your vacation. Take care of your health. As much as I expect a lot of the jrs I work with, I don't mind at all when they take off early (assuming we aren't closing the next day...actually I don't care if they want to relocate to work at home even on the night of a closing because they can work just as well from there), go on vacation, go to the dr or the gym, work from home, etc...I know that will help them not burn out.

You may also want to consider therapy. I know we are all used to spending our time around people who define themselves by where they went to school, their grades, their job, etc but that is not a healthy way to live, and if you can get a handle on your tendency toward that, you will have a much happier life in the long run.

Wow that got long. OP or anyone else in this thread, you can PM me if you want to speak further.

[Anonymous User]

The culture did for a while, but not because I can't handle getting yelled at over shit, more because I woke up everyday questioning what I was doing with the short time I have on this beautiful planet, filled with awesome people that aren't looking to just make their next million and send their kids to private kindergarden for $40K a year and ruin two months of my life so they can buy some shitty company and flip it 5 years down the road for carry.

I get that every job is competitive and if you are in a finance, legal, consulting, type job, there are crazy strivers all around, but biglaw was just too much. Too much client pressure for bullshit, too much partner and senior associate pressure for bullshit, too much bullshit in general with no life to be had. You're smart enough (or persistent enough) to have made it to biglaw and you can leave at anytime, that should be enough to keep your head high.

[Anonymous User]

The culture did for a while, but not because I can't handle getting yelled at over shit, more because I woke up everyday questioning what I was doing with the short time I have on this beautiful planet, filled with awesome people that aren't looking to just make their next million and send their kids to private kindergarden for $40K a year and ruin two months of my life so they can buy some shitty company and flip it 5 years down the road for carry.

I get that every job is competitive and if you are in a finance, legal, consulting, type job, there are crazy strivers all around, but biglaw was just too much. Too much client pressure for bullshit, too much partner and senior associate pressure for bullshit, too much bullshit in general with no life to be had. You're smart enough (or persistent enough) to have made it to biglaw and you can leave at anytime, that should be enough to keep your head high.

Agree with this but the problem is that for many lawyers without an undergrad degree and/or work experience in a hard science or business, alternate career paths are few and far between.